Quit poker?

I'm 18 years old.
I've been playing poker since March 2006.
I started at the lowest stakes ($25 or $10 games).
I now play $600NL and have also had a go at $1kNL and made a small profit at it. My bankroll is $29k.
I don't play tournaments a lot anymore. But I do quite well at offline tournaments.

I'm a religious Jew and I'm at Yeshiva (a place where you learn about Judaism) for a year. I did well in school and I should be able to get a good job after I finish Uni. I'm going to a top English Uni to study Maths next year. My financial situation is good.

I think I could make a lot of money playing poker in a short period of time.

I'm thinking about quitting poker. Living a life of gambling can be very dangerous. I don't want to still be a poker player when I get married and have kids. If I don't stop now I'm not sure I'll ever be to stop. It could ruin my life even though I do consider myself to be a sensible player (and not a gambling player like Matusow or Hansen or Tony G etc. that will and have gone bankrupt).
Playing poker for a living is not the most honest way of making money. I don't know who I'm playing with on the net and I could be ruining people's lives. Poker is considered the dust of stealing in Judaism. It isn't considered stealing but it is frowned upon. The people I take money off are expecting to win and they don't hand over fully heartedly when they lose. Especially when they get bad beat!

In Judaism you are not allowed to be a witness in a Jewish court if gambling is your only profession. So again, it is frowned upon.

As a poker player I'm not helping the world. I'm a leech/parasite on society.

Also, I think I overvalue money and society does too.

I'm not imposing this on anyone else and Judaism doesn't say non-Jews can't play poker.

Poker players are my heroes. Brian Townsend is my role model.
I love the game of poker, but I'm being convinced to stop playing.

The reasons I want to continue are because the big amounts of money I could win and because I love playing the game and want to be the best.

Please give an argument against this and why I should or shouldn't continue playing.

Thanks

http://www.barrygreenstein.com/

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Barry Greenstein is unique to professional poker. He donates every penny of his tournament winnings to charities, primarily children's charities.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

As a poker player I'm not helping the world. I'm a leech/parasite on society.

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This is only true if you do nothing but play poker. Besides, in any other job you are working for a parasite and getting paid only a small fraction of what you are worth. If you can make enough money to live ok and still feel bad about it then look after old people in your spare time or something. If you really feel there is something immoral about poker/gambling then wtf are you still doing playing it?

You're letting a belief system control your life. That's cool and everything if you feel that it's worth the tradeoff. If being a good Jew gives you satisfaction and a sense of direction, then by all means quit playing poker.

Whatever you decide, make sure you do it for the right reasons. If you just want to quit because it's making you feel guilty, you should examine who or what is exerting those pressures on you. If, on the other hand, being able to dedicate yourself to Judaism completely would bring you joy, that's an excellent reason to quit.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, do whatever makes you happy. That's not a decision anyone can make for you. Though I suspect that you don't really believe the parasite/stealing arguments against poker (otherwise you never would have played this long) and are looking for reassurance in the form of counter-arguments. If so, I'm sure you will receive plenty of it.

Good luck.

grnydrowave2... you really dont get religion do you. If you upset God you go to hell. Its nothing to do with bringing you joy while you are alive.

I would be overjoyed if I believed with any certainty that I would not be burning in hell for eternity. :)

Hell sucks, I hear the internet connection always drops and All the porn links freeze right at the nape of the neck so you never see a booby

Gentlemen:

OP made a serious post asking for some serious advice. Please don't turn this into a retarded nobody wins religious discussion.

:roll:

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Originally Posted by Warpe

Gentlemen:

OP made a serious post asking for some serious advice. Please don't turn this into a retarded nobody wins religious discussion.

:roll:

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There is no advice anyone can give. If your book says you shouldnt gamble then you need to decide if you want to follow it or not. Noone can give you a yes or no for that and the argument basically boils down to "how much does it mean to you"?.

Not to mention if you put the serious back into a religion post we know where it ends up. One or two posts are probably enough. I think anymore starts a debate.

follow your heart.

Im interested in what has made you start thinking like this? It seems pretty sudden since you obviously enjoy poker and have just made a thread about buying a new laptop specifically for poker. Whats changed?

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I'm at Yeshiva (a place where you learn about Judaism) for a year

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Pelion, he's being subjected to a lot of propaganda at the moment. Thats whats changed. Theres nothing *wrong* with that, but OP needs to be cognizant that just because some group says "THIS IS THE BEST PATH TO GOD" and is able to do it the loudest, doesnt make it true. Finding your own path to spirituality is wonderful. God won't punish you for it.

May the article by David Sklansky on the Two Plus Two Internet Magazine, Vol. 3, No. 9, "POKER IT'S GOOD FOR YOU" can help you

I can't post the link, (not enough messages), but it's easy to found

Thanks Vega, here's the link.

http://twoplustwo.com/magazine/curre...maker0907.html

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

follow your heart.

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...and do good

Did you ever consider playing as a hobby? You sound as if your decision is go pro or quit cold turkey. That does not make any sense.

Certainly I would recommend strongly against being a poker "pro" and committing your life and future success on poker but it is fun, challenging and profitable on a part-time basis.

I never understand the "go pro" mentality. Play for fun and if you make money all the better. Working usually sucks no matter what you do because you have to do it. I like golf and fishing and poker but would never want to be a pro at any of those activities.

"As a poker player I'm not helping the world. I'm a leech/parasite on society. "

IMO when you're doing shitty low-paid menial labour society is a leech/parasite on you.

I personally don't think you should give up poker. If it's your passion, do it.

Can you name me some honest ways of making a living that you're interested in?

If you feel you're doing nothing for society, make a standing order to some charities or do some voluntary work for a cause you really support.

thanks a lot for all the replies. a lot of the replies have been very informative. i'm happy that i didn't offend anyone by writing this post.

i'm going to read the greenstein and sklansky articles. they both happen to be Jews - although not at all religious.

Judaism doesn't say that poker is straight out wrong. Stealing and murder are WRONG. Poker is more of a grey area. You can gamble but it's not the most honest way of life.

I've always had a thought at the back of my mind thinking that poker isn't the best of things to do.

There's a reason for gamblers anonymous. Gambling can ruin people's life! I don't want it to ruin mine.

I was about to get a laptop, but then I started thinking a lot more if I really want to. And if I really wanna continue with poker.

I'll still continue to play with friends in the future. But that will be for between $10 and $100. That's nothing compared to $1kNL.

The question was more:
should i quit online poker?
one of the main reasons i play online poker is for the money. i do enjoy it too, but without the money involved i would have stopped playing by now or have played a lot less.

also, in response to what jobs do help the world?:
that's a very good point. i've also started thinking about this.
my plan a week ago was:
go uni to study maths for 4yrs. get a good degree and then get a wellpaid job at a bank. and you're right, this job wouldn't help the world at all.
i think i need to find a balance between money and religion. i also think i overvalue (and the society we live in) overvalues money.
there are good Jews making millions each year. they do good stuff in their spare time and give a lot to charity. i want to be that guy.

i'm gunna think about this more. thanks for all the replies so far and please add more.

ps - barry greenstein is a king for giving his tourny winnings to charity. and brian townsend is the sort of poker player i would want to be like. BT said he was enjoying life even after he lost $3mil in like a month. absolute legend.
i think losing 3mil would have caused a lot of people to have a mental breakdown, but he took it like a man.

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Originally Posted by Warpe

http://www.barrygreenstein.com/

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Barry Greenstein is unique to professional poker. He donates every penny of his tournament winnings to charities, primarily children's charities.

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does barry address my issue anywhere on his site?

I'm not very clued up on Judaism (Is that the correct term?) or anything but have views on subjects like this changed within the Jewish community in recent years (ie, are these outdated views/standards) or would it still be frowned upon?

I know this post doesnt help too much but I'm curious. For example, with Christianity gambling is historically frowned upon but I think being a poker-pro would be alot more acceptable these days.

I suppose it doesnt matter too much either way as it sounds like you have your own moral views on poker regardless of what your religion says about it. I dont know if its just me but MTTs seem more morally sound than cash ring games, there is an entry fee and a prize (or prizes) just like any other competition (eg professional sports tournaments - there is usually an entry fee and a prize or prizes for the top finisher(s)). I doubt many religions frown upon professional sports as a means of income.

just my $0.02

This is tricky. Religious pressures are one thing, but I'll wager that playing poker isn't quite such a "grey area" - find a friendly rabbi who will help you put it in perspective, because I'm sure there's a more black/white answer than the one you're giving here. It's clear your religion is more important to you - if it decrees you should quit, then you must quit. There can't be any other answer.

Do you also really think gambling is dishonest? Unless you are a crook, or are dealing with crooks, it strikes me that gambling is actually EXTREMELY honest - the rules, the odds, everything is set in stone, you understand the risks. Do you mean it's dishonest because lying in betting form is an intrinsic part of the game? I fear there are very, very few professions where 100% honesty will give you the best results. Think of following the rules as being "honest", and then your quandary should disappear.

Do you think you have a gambling problem? First off, you have a problem that earns you money, so that particular issue, as long as it continues, can be discounted. far more important is the question that all of us have to ask ourselves - does our poker habit negatively impact on our lives? If the answer to this is yes, then by all means make efforts to remedy it - this is common sense, it's not connected to your beliefs.

You say you don't want to play poker when you get married and have kids. Have you asked yourself why? My reading of this sentence is that your prospective wife, her family, and your mutual society will disapprove. And that is a big deal, if it turns out to be the case. But perhaps she won't - if you are a poker player when she meets you, then she may learn to love that part of you as well (my gf disapproves of my poker, but it was something I picked up after we'd been together over two years and were living together - a very different circumstance. Nevertheless, we have reached a happy balance). Perhaps you could think of it the same way a smoker thinks of pregnancy - I know I will have to give up then, and I will be mentally prepared to do so, but until it happens I will continue to enjoy it.

So, to conclude - there are a number of issues here, some connected to religion, some to your own worries and some to the (projected) worries of others. I think your own apparently fundamental disapproval will eventually make your mind up for you, but you can make a plan of action - let's say you decide to keep playing for now to build a nest egg to spend on the house you and this future family of yours will come to inhabit. Morally I think that sounds about as acceptable as could be! And if you are prepared for the fact that at some point you will probably have to quit, then you should be able to when that time comes - you've been playing a while now, you're unlikely to become *more* addicted if you continue.

I applaud you for thinking about all this and taking the issues so seriously. I know it won't be easy to come to a conclusion that satisfied every factor, but I'm sure you will come to one.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

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Originally Posted by Warpe

http://www.barrygreenstein.com/

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Barry Greenstein is unique to professional poker. He donates every penny of his tournament winnings to charities, primarily children's charities.

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does barry address my issue anywhere on his site?

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He doesn't, but you could always try e-mailing him:

http://www.barrygreenstein.com/contact/

I think Barry is such a class act that he would definitely respond.

If you personally feel that playing poker of any sort, whether it be for a living, a side income or a pure hobby is a bad thing, then your only option is to quit.

The problem is that you're the only person who is able to answer this question truthfully. If others have imposed this view on you then you may have to question it, but no one here can really add anything.

Try and work out if you can play as a hobby with side income and be happy at the same time with having a good job and helping people / not being a leech as you put it.

Most of us here would not look down on a pro poker player but in the real world it is often frowned upon and your particular religion may be even more strict and a harsher critic.

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Originally Posted by topsoyale

Most of us here would not look down on a pro poker player

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How did you come to that conclusion? :lol:

Pasty, overweight, smelly, right wing, badly dressed loners - certainly my role models (or so you'd think, looking at me, sigh) :)

I think if you really believed gambling was going to ruin your life then you wouldn't be playing as high as you are successfully.

P.S. I'm not trying to shit on anybody's religion but I personally find it funny that you can't be a witness in Jewish court if you're strictly a poker player.

Is it really frowned upon by everyone? The link below suggests some support for players from the Jewish community.

http://www.ajlmagazine.com/content/0...r-sidebar.html

n find Benny

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Originally Posted by biondino

Pasty, overweight, smelly, right wing, badly dressed loners - certainly my role models (or so you'd think, looking at me, sigh) :)

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Hey!! I resemble that remark.

I'm not religious, but I can relate with your problem. I don't like playing ring games because I don't like taking people's money. I don't know who they are, if they are drunk, if they have a kid who is going to go hungry because I broke his aces...

When I play sng's and mtt's however, I don't really feel like I'm taking anyones money. Everyone is simply paying a price to play a game, and the winner of the game gets a cash prize. yaaaay!

Just the way I look at it though.

I feel no remorse at all when I take someones money. I get a feeling of accomplishment when I win a nice pot. Is that bad?

After reading this post I thought it would be nice and feel good to give 10-20% of my winnings to a charity. I will strongly consider doing this once I move up to higher stakes. Perhaps FTR could nominate a charity through paypal and set up a script to show monthly donation amounts. That would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Nexter

Perhaps FTR could nominate a charity through paypal and set up a script to show monthly donation amounts. That would be nice.

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Or better yet they could not show monthly amounts and you could do it as a good deed instead of just so others can see how wonderful you are.

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Originally Posted by Nexter

Perhaps FTR could nominate a charity through paypal and set up a script to show monthly donation amounts. That would be nice.

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Nice but -EV :lol:

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Originally Posted by acesfullokings

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Originally Posted by Nexter

Perhaps FTR could nominate a charity through paypal and set up a script to show monthly donation amounts. That would be nice.

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Or better yet they could not show monthly amounts and you could do it as a good deed instead of just so others can see how wonderful you are.

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I mean as a community not individual amounts.

Maybe read through this post, its not entirely applicable, but somewhat:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=#531163

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Poker gives me the financial freedom to do what I want, but what I want to do is not play poker. I can afford to work for an organization I love at wages that I couldn’t live on, and I can afford to volunteer my time and money for a cause that’s very important to me. I’m my own boss and I set my own hours. I don’t want to do this for the rest of my life, but I don’t know what I do want to do, and when I figure it out, I intend to have enough money saved up that I won’t have to let that be a factor in my decision.

If poker is your job, do something else with your life. Find something that you enjoy doing and that you consider to be of real value to the world. You’ll derive a lot of personal satisfaction from it and it can help you explore career paths, build experience, and make contacts who will be useful to you if/when you decide to get a real job.

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Originally Posted by Nexter

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Originally Posted by acesfullokings

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Originally Posted by Nexter

Perhaps FTR could nominate a charity through paypal and set up a script to show monthly donation amounts. That would be nice.

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Or better yet they could not show monthly amounts and you could do it as a good deed instead of just so others can see how wonderful you are.

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I mean as a community not individual amounts.

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Misunderstanding aside it is a good idea. I'm all for helping the less fortunate.

For the OP, mate this is a really personal decision and I can only say really is go talk to your rabbi perhaps? I mean if you like poker but think you shouldn't play that's a really tough decision I guess. Does it make you feel guilty, or are you worried about your soul? I hope you find the answers you are looking for and make a decision that you are happy with. All the best.

What's the difference within a professional chess player that pay fees in every tournament he plays, and a professional poker player that also pay fees on sngs?

I don't think neither it's an unfair way to make money for a living

i think i will end up quitting in the end.
i'm talking to rabbis about it, but wanted to post the other side of the story.

gambling is not outright forbidden in Judaism. religious Rabbi's allow it, but my situation is quite different as i'm playing for quite a lot more money than they expect and i have bigger plans for it for the future. it's ok to play with friends for $10 or $20 but playing for $1000 is very different.

none of the jewish pros are religious. they don't keep any laws. they don't keep shabbat or keep kosher. i can't justify playing because they do.

i give 10% of my winnings to charity anyway (annually- not after every session obviously). but even if i gave 50% my rabbi's wouldn't be happy.

i love the game of poker. i don't feel bad taking players money on the net (i can't even see them). i realize the ups and downs of poker. but other's don't and it can ruin their lives.

if i was non-Jewish I would definitely carry on playing without a doubt.

every girl i speak 2 says i should stop. every guy i talk 2 says i should carry on (because they know the game and love money). lol

How about just playing the odd MTT like I suggested instead of high-stakes cash. Surely MTTs are more acceptable due to the "competition" with "prizes" type structure?

Poker is not gambling like roulette or craps. It's not like you are putting thousands on the line at the slot machines. You have a lot more control over the outcome. Poker is kind of similar to stock investing (except the money you make doesn't come from the person sitting next to you).

Also, why does the amount of money have anything to do with it in your case? You are a responsible player with an adequate bankroll. You aren't flipping a coin on the family nest or anything. Yes, $600 or $1000 seems like a lot to lose to non-poker players (and those who don't play just cannot understand/comprehend it), but you and everyone else here knows that it's not a big deal with the right frame of mind and responsible bankroll management.

Another thing...I disagree with the whole leech/parasite thing. Working a "normal" job isn't helping the world/society anymore than your poker playing is. What would happen if you inherited a billion dollars or something and didn't have to work anymore? Would you feel guilty for the rest of your life?

I have to be very careful what i say in this thread to not offend.

My opinion is that if you enjoy something, or if something is likely to be beneficial to you and your chance of having a good life or improving its quality then you have to seriously consider which belief systme has more impact on you and then why.

My short arguement would be that if something is done by persons in leisure time and that you happen to be good at that then that is not something to be persecuted about because it is a talent you have.
The same would apply if you were awesome at tennis or something. The only problems that gambling causes is that it people can be come adiccted but that is not your problem and there is nothing you can do whether you play or not, that will still happen.
Al

i finished in the middle of my last post.

i was guna say pple hoo play poker n understand want me2continue. pple thta hav never playedwant me 2stop.

main reasons to stop r:
i need 2 stop at sum point coz otherwise icantmarry a nice religious Jewish girl.
n wen i take money off pple i cood b ruining their lives.

btw, i am addicted n that's y i'm finding it hard 2 stop.

Dude you'd better be careful - txt speak is explicitly outlawed in the Torah. Your rabbi would be so disappointed.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

n wen i take money off pple i cood b ruining their lives.

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If someone who shouldn't be there sits down at a poker table, *he or she* could be ruining his or her life. You are not any part of that choice. Whether you are the one playing or whether it is 8 other random people, dude will probably lose his money to someone.

Do what you want, follow your heart, all that stuff. Over the long term, poker is a skill based game. If you've been granted that skill and can be a positive person and role-model for others, I don't see why you aren't contributing to society any less than 99.99999% of the world. I will also say that asking advice on a poker forum about if you should quit poker isn't going to get you the most objective viewpoint. ;)

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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

I don't see why you aren't contributing to society any less than 99.99999% of the world.

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Because most of the worlds population creates wealth or provides a service to help other people (and help them to create/protect wealth). All poker players do is redistribute it to themselves. You can't argue that a poker player contributes as much to society as a farmer or factory worker or nurse.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

I don't see why you aren't contributing to society any less than 99.99999% of the world.

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Because most of the worlds population creates wealth or provides a service to help other people (and help them to create/protect wealth). All poker players do is redistribute it to themselves. You can't argue that a poker player contributes as much to society as a farmer or factory worker or nurse.

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Poker players create a demand for casinos, brick and otherwise. Said casinos employ a large number of people. They create wealth in just the same way as any employed person and that is a positive contribution. It's not a moral contribution, merely an economic one.

plus poker players spend money on consumer goods like everyone else, and so are just as useful to society as anyone with extra money to spend.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i think i will end up quitting in the end.
i'm talking to rabbis about it, but wanted to post the other side of the story.

gambling is not outright forbidden in Judaism. religious Rabbi's allow it, but my situation is quite different as i'm playing for quite a lot more money than they expect and i have bigger plans for it for the future. it's ok to play with friends for $10 or $20 but playing for $1000 is very different.

none of the jewish pros are religious. they don't keep any laws. they don't keep shabbat or keep kosher. i can't justify playing because they do.

i give 10% of my winnings to charity anyway (annually- not after every session obviously). but even if i gave 50% my rabbi's wouldn't be happy.

i love the game of poker. i don't feel bad taking players money on the net (i can't even see them). i realize the ups and downs of poker. but other's don't and it can ruin their lives.

if i was non-Jewish I would definitely carry on playing without a doubt.

every girl i speak 2 says i should stop. every guy i talk 2 says i should carry on (because they know the game and love money). lol

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Ok, here goes

Anyone who tells you how you should live your life is not a good person imo. If people put "requirements" as to how you should live in order for them to be happy with you, be near you etc., they can all go up a tree, said nicely. Oh, and don't talk (about this) to these people anymore. Whatever you do for a living is not their business.

Poker is wealth redistribution. You don't ruin anybody's life, unless they are gambling addicts (who feel rushes by gambling) in which case their lives are already ruined.

You aren't killing anybody. You are just playing a sport, in which the main weapon happens to be a stack of chips in front of you.

Also, you don't *have* to marry a nice Jewish girl, you know. There are many other nice girls of many other and different ethnicities you can choose from.


Be happy with whatever you do. But not doing something you love because "others" tell you its bad, etc. is plain dumb. You'll feel miserable for the rest of your life.




I know.

Ahhh, now I see what this is all about. You want to marry a nice Jewish girl and they all disapprove across the board. I think if you quit poker because of that, you're entering dangerous waters.

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

I know.

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*tear*

Did you want to be a marine biologist too?

grn, I don't think you can be that judgemental. A lot of things we choose to do in life require us to make sacrifices. In the crassest terms, being with my gf means I have to not sleep with other women, and I'd be lying if I said that wasn't an occasional temptation. Many legal things face prohibitions in certain circumstances, and obviously illegal things in even more. We may still want to do them, but we can't, or at least shouldn't.

If PRA's religion is his choice, then I imagine it's a pretty big and important one. If this means he's likely to have to sacrifice poker for the kind of life he wants within this religion, then that might be what he'll have to do. He doesn't have to like it, though.

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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

I know.

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*tear*

Did you want to be a marine biologist too?

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No. An economist.

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Ahhh, now I see what this is all about. You want to marry a nice Jewish girl and they all disapprove across the board. I think if you quit poker because of that, you're entering dangerous waters.

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Sounds like a recipe for resentment.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

if i was non-Jewish I would definitely carry on playing without a doubt.

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That's a funny thing to say. Many religions don't allow for gambling at all. Strict Christians are committing a sin if they play poker. It's not a "grey area," as you say, it's pretty black-and-white.

Maybe you meant if you were non-religious.

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Originally Posted by sejje

Strict Christians are committing a sin if they play poker.

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which is ridiculous because they will spend tons of cash on going to disney world or playing golf and doing other things which are soley for entertainment. at least with poker you can actually get your money back while being entertained.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by sejje

Strict Christians are committing a sin if they play poker.

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which is ridiculous because they will spend tons of cash on going to disney world or playing golf and doing other things which are soley for entertainment. at least with poker you can actually get your money back while being entertained.

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and how many churches hold a bingo night? I know some that hold one every friday and saturday night.

lol bingo is worse than poker
much worse

the hypocrisies of religion aren't really the point here. Telling OP his religion is hypocritic (?) is not helpful

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

the hypocrisies of religion aren't really the point here. Telling OP his religion is hypocritic (?) is not helpful

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lol true just sayin...

From the tone of your posts in this thread, it is apparent you are proud of what you have accomplished playing poker. And by all means you should be! This suggests that you would like to continue playing poker if you can justify doing so.

It seems odd that the rabbis you have spoken to would be critical of the actual amount of money you would risk in a poker game; i don't think they would approve if you made a living playing $5 SNG's. It seems more likely that the problem is that they view your poker play as your profession.

What would you do if you inherited an infinite amount of money (someone already posed a question in a different manner)? You wouldn't need to work for money, so you would find other ways to contribute to society. The religious idea of what you do for a living determining your contribution to society may be practical, but doesn't apply to all cases (i don't think it applies to yours). Find other ways to contribute to society if that is what your religion dictates as being the right thing to do.

I think looking at poker in a different mindset may enable you to continue playing: You could become a "full time volunteer", and a "recreational poker player" (who happens to earn enough to make a comfortable living :) )?

also, i think biondino addressed many of the other moral issues of playing poker very well.

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Originally Posted by biondino

Pasty, overweight, smelly, right wing, badly dressed loners - certainly my role models (or so you'd think, looking at me, sigh) :)

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i also resemble that remark.

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Originally Posted by acesfullokings

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Ahhh, now I see what this is all about. You want to marry a nice Jewish girl and they all disapprove across the board. I think if you quit poker because of that, you're entering dangerous waters.

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Sounds like a recipe for resentment.

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Just because I don't find the idea of wearing a short leash appealing, doesn't mean I'm bitter.

No, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that you HAVE to make compromises and sacrifices in a long term relationship, it's how it works. Whether you're giving up poker, bacon or your ladyboy hooker habit, it's part of life. I'd like it as little as the next man (I get grumpy if I go a week without a ladyboy) but it's sometimes necessary.

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Originally Posted by biondino

No, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that you HAVE to make compromises and sacrifices in a long term relationship, it's how it works. Whether you're giving up poker, bacon or your ladyboy hooker habit, it's part of life. I'd like it as little as the next man (I get grumpy if I go a week without a ladyboy) but it's sometimes necessary.

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Is that so? What lifestyle changes have you forced your girlfriend to make then?

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

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Originally Posted by biondino

No, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that you HAVE to make compromises and sacrifices in a long term relationship, it's how it works. Whether you're giving up poker, bacon or your ladyboy hooker habit, it's part of life. I'd like it as little as the next man (I get grumpy if I go a week without a ladyboy) but it's sometimes necessary.

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Is that so? What lifestyle changes have you forced your girlfriend to make then?

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O SNAP

ther r tyms u hav 2 make sacrifices in ur life.

also, wether you cna play poker in Judaism is not black and white! according to the Jewish law it is ok, but that doesn't mean it is a good thing to do! Judaism is not the same as Christianity!

my rabbi in england said it's ok to play poker. i dont know what he would say bout my situation tho.

religion doesn't say you are not allowed 2 hav fun. wel Judaism doesn't say that anyway.
if u believe in Judaism tho there r sum rules u need 2 keep 2.

thanks 4 ur thoughts

OP, it seems like you're really devoted to religion, and at the same time you really enjoy poker. no one outside of a winning poker player will ever understand that it is a skill game. even poker players who lose all the time probably think they have the worst luck in the world, and if they just stop getting bad beat all the time, they would be the next Ivey.

you have to realize that as a 600NL player, the money you make is FAR greater than most jobs out there. let's see....conservatively 3ptbb/100 = $18/hr, x 4 = $72/hr. at 5ptbb/100 you're going at $120/hr. these are also gross underestimates, because i'm sure there are 200NL and 400NL players that average that per hour by good player and/or more tables.

i doubt your normal job can make that much....at $100/hr, that's equivalent to $200k salary (without benefits).

so you will need to sacrifice a lot of money if you quit poker completely. and since you're doing good deeds, yes, $20k will no longer go to charity, because you won't have that money. the less you play, obviously the less good deeds you can return back to society.

look, not many people can work their way up to 600NL+. you should be proud of the fact that you got there. if i were you, the most win/win situation would be to play poker until you're rolled and comfortable at 1k. get your regular life job, so that the people in your community will approve of it. and as a hobby on the side, play the 1k games 3 or 4 hours a week.

in those 3 or 4 hours you will make a month's salary.

seriously, i think everyone on this forum (i know it's biased, but still true), understands that winning poker in the long term is a HARD PROCESS, and it requires dedication and commitment, not to mention to ability to control your emotions, have patience, and all that stuff. this is certainly not winning money from doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by sejje

Strict Christians are committing a sin if they play poker.

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this is not entirely true. i forget the direct verse, but it's an overinterpretation of the verse where you're not supposed to make something from nothing, that you have to work for what you earn. different denominations will agree or disagree that gambling is a sin.

personally i think a lot of things in the Old Testament should not be interpreted literally...

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Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 13:6-11

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

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wait, so us Jews are allowed to stone people of all other religions?

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

wait, so us Jews are allowed to stone people of all other religions?

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sucker, i'm not family or your closest friend! no stoneage for me!

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Originally Posted by sejje

Strict Christians are committing a sin if they play poker.

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Am not.

Certainly not the way I play... could perhaps be described as "charity"...

More seriously...

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

I'm 18 years old.
I've been playing poker since March 2006.
I started at the lowest stakes ($25 or $10 games).
I now play $600NL and have also had a go at $1kNL and made a small profit at it. My bankroll is $29k.

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I hate you. Plz quit.

Sorry. Envy kicked in there...

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Playing poker for a living is not the most honest way of making money. I don't know who I'm playing with on the net and I could be ruining people's lives.

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This is a good point. It's not long between horror stories where some dickhead has got himself so in debt playing online poker that he feels the only way out is suicide.
As much as it's unfair to blame online poker instead of a) the person b) whoever gave them those warped standards c) the people who ignored warning signs etc etc etc, the bottom line is playing poker enables people to make really stupid mistakes.

On the other hand of course regularly drinking a glass of wine with your meal, maybe helps the restaurant decide to keep a license for alcohol, ends up with them serving a recovering alcoholic the glass that gets him back into a drinking binge which kills him... how much responsibility can normal users face for those who abuse?

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As a poker player I'm not helping the world. I'm a leech/parasite on society.

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Strong words, but yes given your values it's hard to see what poker players contribute through their poker beyond a certain base-level entertainment. I mean it's barely a notch above Paris Hilton on that scale.

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Also, I think I overvalue money and society does too.

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ldo. Good you notice though.

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I love the game of poker, but I'm being convinced to stop playing.

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There was a time when I felt it would be wrong for me to play poker for money; I was then convinced otherwise and I may one day be re-convinced again. I try to keep an open mind.

Don't feel you need to make a once-and-for-all decision here. Follow your conscience and pray for wisdom and good advice.

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

Finding your own path to spirituality is wonderful. God won't punish you for it.

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LOL. Gospel according to eupho: "Don't believe what some group tells you, believe what I tell you" :)

The idea that an individual's ideas are more valuable than shared community ones is a fairly big assumption that comes from your particular time and culture.

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Gospel according to eupho: "Don't believe what some group tells you, believe what I tell you" Smile

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Adding a smiley at the end is the emoticon equivalent of "No offense, but..." So just say what you mean to say. I'm a pretty hard guy to offend.

Life according to Eupho, from Men In Black:

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A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

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It doesnt make sense to me that some people take a religion and feel they have to accept *every single piece* of it. Religion is man made, and as such it is subject to human fallibility and religious-politics.

Accept that which you accept, and reject that which you reject. God passed down 10 laws. The rest were created by man.

Yea, I don't like the adding a smiley so you don't come off as a douche when you clearly wanted to make a douche-esque comment.

otherwise, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee discussing religion on the interwebs, no way this thread ends nicely.

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

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Originally Posted by biondino

No, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that you HAVE to make compromises and sacrifices in a long term relationship, it's how it works. Whether you're giving up poker, bacon or your ladyboy hooker habit, it's part of life. I'd like it as little as the next man (I get grumpy if I go a week without a ladyboy) but it's sometimes necessary.

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Is that so? What lifestyle changes have you forced your girlfriend to make then?

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Are you serious? Okay:

1. She had to move continent to be with me
2. connected to 1, she lives 3,000 miles from her mum, who she's incredibly close to
3. She had to move into my flat and, through ignorance and thoughtlessness on my part, wasn't able/allowed to make it her home
4. connected to 3, she hasn't been able to move house as she desperately wants to because of the logistics involved in living with me in my flat
5. she's someone who loves solitude and time to herself and she don't get a lot of that in this house
6. she has spent a lot of time, money and worry gaining the necessary documents to legally remain in the country

And, no doubt, dozens of smaller, personal things which aren't much by themselves but they add up. And I love her for it.

another nomine for "wow this thread made it to a second page so I'll finally check it out... WTF there's not content!?!?!"

OP, I think you should send a PM to TLR and get his thoughts, he lives in Israel and he should be able to give you a perspective.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I am not picking apart your post, just using it to express my opinions.

I have been a devout Christian most of my life. So, while I do not share some of your religious preferences or beliefs, I do understand where you are coming from. I have dealt with this issue from my family, friends, coworkers, and religious figureheads since I started playing.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

gambling is not outright forbidden in Judaism. religious Rabbi's allow it, but my situation is quite different as i'm playing for quite a lot more money than they expect and i have bigger plans for it for the future. it's ok to play with friends for $10 or $20 but playing for $1000 is very different.

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Is it different for you? How well does your rabbi understand Bill Gates going on a $10 million vacation? There are a lot of people that will warn you against the things that they don't understand. However, if you understand it better than they do, what weight does their advice carry?

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i give 10% of my winnings to charity anyway (annually- not after every session obviously). but even if i gave 50% my rabbi's wouldn't be happy.

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Does it matter if your rabbis are happy? Shouldn't it be God that you please? I don't want to mock your religious leaders, but I do want you to be wary. People will let you down, they will fail, and they will make bad decisions no matter who they are. Especially if they do not understand the situation.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i love the game of poker. i don't feel bad taking players money on the net (i can't even see them). i realize the ups and downs of poker. but other's don't and it can ruin their lives.

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Everyone is responsible for themselves. You cannot be responsible for this. That is the essence of free will. People will do what they want to do, and what feels good, no matter the consequences. You are not taking advantage. You are simply taking your own separate risks, with your own separate wins and losses.

To finish this long post; I think that what you should do is pray. Stop talking to other people about it. As I said, people will let you down, and their opinions will always be biased. Go to the source of the knowledge. Understand the situation between you and Him, and then decide the best course. Sorry for the long post, but as I said, this subject is close to my heart. God bless, and good luck.

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

another nomine for "wow this thread made it to a second page so I'll finally check it out... WTF there's not content!?!?!"

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I think this thread is really interesting. I would have never read it if he hadn't posted in the BC :)

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

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Gospel according to eupho: "Don't believe what some group tells you, believe what I tell you" Smile

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Adding a smiley at the end is the emoticon equivalent of "No offense, but..." So just say what you mean to say. I'm a pretty hard guy to offend.

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The LOL and smiley were to indicate that *I* was amused. I see something funny in the argument "Listen to me: don't listen to other people" no matter how much it's dressed up in the popular ideals of the day.

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It doesnt make sense to me that some people take a religion and feel they have to accept *every single piece* of it. Religion is man made, and as such it is subject to human fallibility and religious-politics.

Accept that which you accept, and reject that which you reject. God passed down 10 laws. The rest were created by man.

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Well either one sees religion as being God-made (and therefore you'd have to accept every bit that actually came from God) or they consider it made by people wiser than themselves. Which again makes you more likely to accept the ideas even if you find them hard.

There is also the very important concept of community. Western society often encourages individualism to the point of egotism. But that's by no means an ideal everyone has to endorse. We don't all necessary beleive that human beings are smartest when they're thinking individually (or perhaps more correctly: individualistically).

But regardless of all this, OP's problem is one that a lot of people have with poker. Their moral/ethical code, whether it be religious or secular often has a "gambling=bad" and "poker=gambling" notion.

There are very few people here, if any, who are really qualified to discus the ins-and-outs of Judaism and the Torah with OP; and your second paragraph there kinda indicates you're in the NOT category.
As a Christian I'm also arguing from a different basis, so instead of trying to convince him that his religion is wrong as regards poker I'm thinking we should perhaps be looking at the poker side of the equation, is he wrong about what poker is?

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Yea, I don't like the adding a smiley so you don't come off as a douche when you clearly wanted to make a douche-esque comment.

otherwise, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee discussing religion on the interwebs, no way this thread ends nicely.

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How's the making-douchey-comments-without-a-smiley working out for you? :)

It's not really a discussion of religion. If anything it's non-religious people making statements about religion, especially OP's.

The more wider-appealing issues are not so much religion (because the relgious authorities seem to be divided) so much as about ethics and community.

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Originally Posted by Anosmic

How's the making-douchey-comments-without-a-smiley working out for you? :)

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meh, seems to work for me, pretty sure everyone loves me around here anyways :wink: :roll: :twisted: :evil: :x :P :x :oops: :cry: :lol: :cool: :? :shock: :D :) :( :o

Would this be a good place for me to post whore?

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Originally Posted by sarbox68

Would this be a good place for me to post whore?

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Nope. Don't post whore in other people's legit threads, please. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by courtiebee

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Originally Posted by sarbox68

Would this be a good place for me to post whore?

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Nope. Don't post whore in other people's legit threads, please. Thanks.

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Since apparently my sense of humor didn't translate well, I'll trade levity for a couple of two-centsers... (is that even a word...?)

1) Religion by definition demands that you accept an arbitrary set of practices and beliefs. They may not seem arbitrary to the insider, as each has been wrapped over centuries or through careful planning in a myriad of justifications. But that doesn't change the fact that they are indeed arbitrary and dependent on acceptance and at least some derivative of faith to become rules to live by. And this makes complete sense, as without faith (or selective vision, belief, awareness, call it what you will...), religion has no purpose and, by its own doctrine, would cease to exist.
2) Don't eat pork. Alcohol is sin. Dancing and music too. Men shouldn't come in physical contact with any member of the opposite sex outside of wedlock. Poker is bad. The lists of rules to choose from go on forever. So to make it easier, we've organized them into groupings that we call theological structure and placed neato names at the head of each... 497 varieties of Christianity, 82 of Judaism, a whole bunch o' derivatives of Islam... and that's just the major three. Makes it easier for people to pick which group of rules they believe in and align themselves with others similarly disposed...
3) So given 1 & 2, it really comes down to what you choose to believe and who you want to be similar in belief system to. That should narrow it down a bit. You want to stay aligned with your family's belief system? Easy... I'm sure they'll be happy to tell you what it is, what it's called and how to adhere to it. Concerned about compatibility with a future wife? Valid issue... there are reasons why you don't find many Hasidic Jews married to Mormons (sic. random pairing selected to demonstrate point only...) You gotta be aligned in what you believe. So you either pick the belief system you want and then go looking for people who agree, or find the person you want to spend the rest of your life with and believe accordingly.

4) Yeah, there is a pesky 4... If you want to introduce the "which one's right?" question into the mix, then sadly you'll find yourself mired in an intractable mess. I guess in those cases you pick what you fear most and make whatever choice you feel will best deter it... Then pray like hell that those people who told you that would work got it right in the first place...

So end two-center... no, this isn't an attempt to post-whore... and I sincerely wish you best in figuring this all out, as I'd take "quads on the flop" odds that this goes well beyond the issue of whether or not to play poker for you....

Cheers!



(damn... that's some deep pontifications right there... :shock: )

Wow

Wow, touchy subject

As Tai mentioned I am a non-practicing jew and I live in Israel.

There are two main issues in your post I think that need addressing, one is religion's view on poker and one is the jewish community view on poker.
I can only relate from what I know about it from my life here.

First and foremost since we are discussing beliefs 'rational' arguements such as 'poker is not gambling hence it is ok' is pretty much out of the window, when you believe in a religion you accept some stuff as is, even if it does not make much sense to viewers who do not follow your belief.

Regarding the religion view on poker, I have some 2nd hand knowledge about it since a friend of mine in our weekly home game struggles with the same issues, and as I understand it poker is OK as a friendly game for insignificant amounts of money, and it shady but on the wrong side from there.
At least in your case it seems that the reason you play online is more for the money then for the enjoyment of the game, and that the money is significant to you, I am not in position to say whether or not you should continue or stop playing, but I am saying that I understand where the conflict came from. It was probably not an issue when you played once in a while for a few bucks when you started, and now as itbecomes more 'serious' it became a big deal.
If it is really a big concern for you maybe you should consult a Rabbi but tell him your exact position and devotion to the game, and not discuss it on the therotical level only.

Regarding poker and the community, I do not know the jewish community you live in, and I can only imply from the knowledge I have in religious jewish communities in Israel. Online poker is simply something you do not do, and it is viewed very badly by others, and in the religous jewish community this can affect who you will marry, your status in the community and the way you and your kids are viewed. Ofcourse it does not have to be common knowledge to everyone, but if it is something you do on a daily basis it will probably come out, especially if you will be married and have kids.
Again I cannot tell you what to do and what is the correct thing, the religious jewish community lifestyle is something that is very far from the way I live my life and I do not understand the codes and systems of this community well, if you plan to continue to live a major part of your life as part in this community and you continue to seriously play poker you should be ready for some rough times, and you need to decide if poker is worth it or not.

i gave up poker in the end. religious reasons. thanks for all the advice.

good luck in the future.

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i gave up poker in the end. religious reasons. thanks for all the advice.

good luck in the future.

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Hope the path you chose will bribg you happiness

Wow, now that's strength of will. I really respect this kid.

Good for him. Makes me glad I'm an agnostic though. I doubt whatever created this universe gives much of a monkey's arse whether or not we all play poker or chew tobacco or sing the Hallelujah Chorus every morning. Still, nice of him/her/it to set it all up for us, all things considered.

meh

Being a non-practicing Jew (and living with Southern Baptist In-laws) I know a thing or two about the issues with Poker and the religious aspects of your life.

Poker and Gambling:
For me there are two types of poker. 1 - The poker which is a game of skill by which you measure your skill versus another person/other people and the only way you can truly keep score is by the money you make. If you think this is a crazy attitude, this is the exact way Investors and people who work in the big financial institutes think. It comes down to $$ in regards to who is Top Dog. 2 - The second type of poker is the gambling side. This is when you're looking to take that big risk to win the big pot. Correct play means nothing to you, you're just as likely to put your money on 72o as you are on AA (extreme example I know). In essence, you want to gamble with your money as if you're betting the horses.

The pros are able to merge the two types, Freddy Deeb, Elezra, in some regards Daniel N do this the most. But they do so with the complete understanding that it's an image so that they can get paid off in the future. In essence they are playing the gambler to win as an investor.

Why am I sprouting this nonsense? Because in a religious environment, or even a very "morality conscious" one, these two types of poker doesn't exist. People don't understand if you're all about having the skills, with the right bankroll management, there is no way you could ever go bust. Barry Greenstein helps out charities with his money, Scotty Ngyeun does exactly the same thing, as (I believe) does Men Ngyeun and Johnny Chan. They contribute something back into a world that gives them the chance to earn crazy amounts of money and have fun at the same time.

It's all about how much you want to give back to society. If you're going to get a "good" job, earning a "good" wage and not give anything to charity, not help out society in anyway then you're doing nothing but fitting in with the norm because of peer pressure (unless it is what you really want, and I don't think it is reading your opening post). But image playing poker and being able to donate money to your Synagogue, helping build more Synagogues in your area or open up new wings for a hospital all because you stuck with something you love and it brought in enough money to affect other people's lives.

It's never about how or where you get your money from but what you do with that money for other people that counts. I know a few people with a LOT of money, one is very tight and "Scrooge-like" the other can't stop helping charities. They both have earned their money by doing things that society doesn't consider the norm. But they are both extremely happy.

Do what you are happy doing and make a difference whilst you're doing it. Offer to pay off someone's debt and see if they turn down "poker money" rather than "work money". They are taking the high-road with you because they can. Stand by your principles. If your principles are to give up poker, do so. But if they are to keep playing and make a difference by giving back to society, go for it mate.

And I'll see you at the table, because I'm looking to influence society with this game of ours.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sejje

Strict Christians are committing a sin if they play poker.

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this is not entirely true. i forget the direct verse, but it's an overinterpretation of the verse where you're not supposed to make something from nothing, that you have to work for what you earn. different denominations will agree or disagree that gambling is a sin.

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Yeah, that's not true. It totally depends on the denomination. Even within a single denomination sometimes you'll have different church leaders with different opinions.

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Originally Posted by TLR

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Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i gave up poker in the end. religious reasons. thanks for all the advice.

good luck in the future.

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Hope the path you chose will bring you happiness

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vnh

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Originally Posted by arborman

Good for him. Makes me glad I'm an agnostic though. I doubt whatever created this universe gives much of a monkey's arse whether or not we all play poker or chew tobacco or sing the Hallelujah Chorus every morning. Still, nice of him/her/it to set it all up for us, all things considered.

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Damn straight

If God had not meant for man to play poker, he would not have given us the "Dealer Button".