do u just fold this hand if u know ur gonna get called if u raise preflop?
lately ive decided that im probably going to be saving money by not playing AJs/o or AQs/o in EP unless im at a tight table...is this just standard?
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do u just fold this hand if u know ur gonna get called if u raise preflop?
lately ive decided that im probably going to be saving money by not playing AJs/o or AQs/o in EP unless im at a tight table...is this just standard?
I'm assuming you're talking 10max here? Cuz in 6max I'll gladly raise AJ in EP.
yea full ring...
I muck it.
ok wat about LP, with a few limpers.
POKERSTARS GAME #4462640258: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/03/30 - 08:20:37 (ET)
Table 'Theodora V' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ouziee ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 2: msc69 ($14.35 in chips)
Seat 3: isssa ($20.20 in chips)
Seat 4: Michorr ($63.45 in chips)
Seat 5: danj001 ($28.05 in chips)
Seat 6: hbwop ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 7: joss2006 ($12.10 in chips)
Seat 8: MalYZ ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 9: RDeSh ($7 in chips)
hbwop: posts small blind $0.10
joss2006: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to danj001 [As Js]
MalYZ: folds
RDeSh: calls $0.25
ouziee: folds
msc69: calls $0.25
isssa: calls $0.25
Michorr: folds
danj001: ???
i am pretty positive i could raise to something like $4 and some idiot would call me...lol
surely you want to be playing it at loose tables. I can understand being cautious OOP at a TAG table but when you are being called down by Ax, AJ is too good an opportunity to pass up
Make it $1.5Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
when im playing well, i fold aj s or not every time ep. unless im at Full Tilt, because i play every hand there. most tight passive site ever.
folding AJ ep is one indicator of how sharp my game is, another is if im folding AQ in position to a raise.
depends on the table, in LP and MP im raising all day
What is with this concept that the puropse of a raise is to get people to fold?
The sole main purpose of raising should to get more money in the pot with the best hand.
Every other reason is secondary.
The blinds are worth more than most hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
But yeah, I agree that raising in NLHE is more about building pots and establishing hand ranges/inititative.
Do you never consider the postflop playability of your hand when deciding whether or not you raise preflop?Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Suited, connected and/or big cards are nice to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I limp every time from EP w/ AJ and Ajs; it hasn't been giving me any problems and is showing a modest profit. If no one raises, you can figure if an ace hits that you have the top kicker unless there is a very tight opponent giving you resistance, plus you will often win an extra bet or two from the Ax limpers flop/turn. Obviously if the flop is [Jxx] you're in great shape.
If I get raised PF I just throw it away, unless its a raise from LP from someone that has a 15%+ PF raise %, then see above.
At least play AJs - this is way too good of a hand to just throw away.
*cackle* How about us 10-12% PFR nut jobs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebene
I've played probably > 100k hands 10nl - 200NL, I've probably seen 2 of these guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
i just toss it, just like i throw AQ. what can you beat? nothing. you are strictly playing it for the nut flush potential, in which case theres no reason to fold ANY suited ace.
I like 2 pair, trips and sometimes I'll even showdown when I hit my Ace. Call me crazy....Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I mean 33 UTG can often be "the best hand" preflop. But do I want to raise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
where are all the 'position is AS important as hand value' ppl when you need them? i just dont like playing utg with easily dominated hands.
It depends ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Want to play a big pot?
Have position?
Want to steal the button? Blinds?
Are you getting checked to almost always after a PFR?
Are your opponents folding too much post-flop?
Do your oppoonents get really tight post-flop in unraised pots, but open it up once there in money in the center of the table?
How deep is the money?
How likely are they to re-raise you?
33 is certainly in my pre-flop raise range!
*raises hand*Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
UTG play is just an interesting topic. I've made some pretty serious adjustments there in the last month. Although I think some of it is very specific to the game I freqent.
With your raising range, I'd fold. Though I honestly haven't ran into anyone raising PPs the way you do, but my inclination would still be to fold - this isn't a hand I'm willing to risk a lot of money on, I'm most likely behind going into the flop, and if I hit I have no idea if you made a set and/or had me dominated going in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Now if it was someone that would raise any two broadways on the button, and I knew that, well that would obviously be a favorable position but I'm generally not watching that close.
something ive done is stopped open-raising with AK in ep.
?
But if no one raises, you can be 95% certain you aren't dominated.Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
Broadways, suited trash, pocket pairs, big pairs, big slick, whatever. It all just kinda blends together behind my sweat glazed eyelids in my gamble frenzy state! I have a hand I want to play and you've shown weakness. RAISE! We'll start talking about showdown value after you've shown more interest in your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebene
Although every now and then I'll button limp total crap if I think you really suck...
Ohhh.... now we're getting somewhere. Why did you do this?Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
if no one raises, youre taking a flop 5-6 handd in a lot of games. which can be good. but usually not when both blinds are in and flop comes J22.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebene
Check/fold.Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
hmm. i make changes if i lose a lot of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
in ep with ak, an open raise will chase all the hands you want to play against, and identify all those you dont.
an openraise makes c-betting awkward when you are out of position to a flat caller(s). so you need to improve 9/10
if someone wakes up with jacks or queens in later p, and they play the hand properly, it may be difficult to even see a flop. played inversly, you can usually CALL most raises from a big pair if the pot hasnt been spiked by (yourself) or another player. this is just simple pot-management with any drawing hand.
finally, i like to 'see whats out there' just calling gives me the option to reraise later in the street if i think isolation is a good idea.
?
All of these ideas have merit, although we could spin up a 100 post thread arguing over many of them. Heck maybe we'll go there, but I have bigger plans than AK.Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
Lets say it's ideal to limp 22-99 pre-flop and folding is throwing away money. Lets say we also would like to limp stuff like AQ/AJs+/KQs/AK and we'll make the leap of faith that that is also the ideal way to play those hands.
TT-JJ are close, but probably still limps per that view of the world.
Once you make those assertions, why would we raise AA-QQ? If we didn't, they would certainly add some teeth to "iso-raise me at your own risk."
All of this changes when it's folded to us in the HJ or HJ+1 of course...
I open raise with AJ (o or s) in any position for the simple fact that it increases my PFR%, increasing my perceived range, and causing AK and JJ+ to make more $$$.
I don't expect to extract any significant profit from this hand in early tho.
Shush you! We'll get there, let this run another 4 or 5 replies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
i think you are making a game-theory case for in fact at times raising the the other hands an appropriate portion of the time, or as you say, ALways limping in ep. this is assuming your opps actually pay attn to your opening requirements by position. i think this thread of thought is more suited to short handed play.Quote:
Once you make those assertions, why would we raise AA-QQ? If we didn't, they would certainly add some teeth to "iso-raise me at your own risk."
SS1 advocates limping your monsters early for the very reason of being able to limp your other hands with the omnipresent threat that it could be aces.
I missed that part. Will have to look for what 'old Doyle thinks about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
The funny part of that book (well the NLHE section) is that the more you play, the more he makes sense....
Basically, my problems with raising EP has been chasing the wrong people out of the pot, that when people do fuck with me they tend to do it on the flop and the vast majority of my opponents fold in sheer terror to the flopped Ace.
i was just referring to this (p 490)Quote:
I missed that part. Will have to look for what 'old Doyle thinks about that.
"when you limp-in with this hand (ssc's) in an early position...youre actually playing it like you would two Aces or two Kings. So, theres also a bit of deception there..."
I have never, nor will I ever, limp- raise with AA/KK, unless the situation seriously warrants a changeup.
I see this done 20 times a day and it is the most transparent play ever. The people who use this play doubtlessly have ultralow BB/Hand stats for AA/KK because of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I'm considering this too. It seems I play with 3 types of players, calling stations and floaters. When I raise, the TAGGs fold unless they have abetter hand, the calling stations call my c-bets and fold the turn and the floaters call my cbets unless there is an A or K on the flop. It seems c-bets are -EV overall and are cancelling out the value of the times that I hit. Yet check folding on the flop seems -EV especially for metagame considerations.
So what use is AK?
Add AK to your LRR range?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Overbetting out of the blinds is pretty darn transparent too and I do it all of the time.
Obviously, if I see a thinking player LRR, then I won't be as positive that I am up against AA/KK. He could just be doing the old "LRR bluff." I am talking about the foolish player who habitually does this every time he has AA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
im torn on the issue of picking up small pots so i can play big ones from behind. im struggling right now to play my break-even hands correctly for this theory to really work. but as mentioned, it doesnt seem to be worth it against non-observant opps.Quote:
The funny part of that book (well the NLHE section) is that the more you play, the more he makes sense....
If a foolish player played like me pre-flop he would go broke pretty quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I'm currently comming to grips with the fact I'm not getting the best of it in big pots as often as I would like to. However, I do pick up a shitload of little stuff. Which put me on the subject of pot control, which got me thinking about spots where I built a pot pretty fast out of position...Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
As I posted already, these are my thoughts too. I'll also add that being reraised when you have AK sucks big time, you just lost your inititive in the hand and while you may be getting pot odds to call sometimes, your implied odds are exactly nil unless you're screwed on the flop. The only flop situation you like is the one that ends up screwing you over.Quote:
Originally Posted by siknd
good post dan. did you think there was this much to it? lol. i think this is the 'lifetime to master' part.
could you explain what this means please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
If I limp, it's less profitable to raise + c-bet any 2 because I'm mixing in effective odds hands with the implied odds hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Sorry I ment to say 33 UTG can often be the best hand. Do I want to raise?
And my point was that hand equity I think should often not be the major consideration when deciding if we raise or not. Post flop playability is huge.
I had a great run raising this because I owned any flop with an A, K or 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
This was already in place with small pps. Are you calling with SC's OOP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Bzzzzt wrong answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
If you limp 22 and I raise + c-bet 74 s00ted you're getting the way worst of it unless you start playing back at me without a set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Fair enough if your c-bet FE works. Unimportant to the thred in general but mine doesn't.
How about AQ? AK? If he's not playing for stacks with TPGK? Even if he is playing for stacks, but folds to your aggression unimproved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
If you limp from EP and I can put you on exactly 22-99 you're fucked unless you start playing back. Even then, you're still in pretty rough shape.
True. I don't think this is any different for the other implied odds hands though. So are you talking about calling raises with the effective odds hands? They are also difficult to play profitable postflop, the whole win a small pot- loose a big one. Reraise preflop?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I used to do this, it also has the advantage that you can rep top pair on a jack high board w/ a cbet from EP. I dropped it because I found it was making my cbet/legitimate bet ratio too high from EP and because of the AQ/AK cold callers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I'm curious how you follow up with it post flop w/ 1-2 callers.
Ok, now I'll really start to really fuck with your heads.
El Diablo said he liked to min-raise a lot from EP in games like this as it discouraged weak players from re-raising.
That being said, I've learned to love re-raising min-raisers myself. Re-raising to 6x does wonders!
FYP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Have you got any numbers on how often we see A/K on the flop? I'm not comfortabe to be throwing second barrels with 33 unimproved. Its the second barrel which defines the opps hand when I have AK. ie- Call=weaker kicker, fold= I don't know or care what he had, raise= I'm beat (sans read).
Boo you can't check/fold here. Assuming both blinds are in, 86% of the time they don't have a 2 and you have a virtual lock unless the board is 2 suited. Even if they call you on the flop there is still close to a 50% chance they've got a J. The only way I am folding this hand is if I get c/r'ed from the blinds or if they bet hard on the turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Whats "games like this"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Very true. There's a regular at my site who minraises every low pocket pair he gets in any position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Him = Owned by me.
I think siknd ment he had AK in this example though. Now that you say it I'm not too sure. Siknd?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebene
i was back to the original aj. but ak plays the same at that pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
i think its 17% for any card when you hold one. so with AK, youd have a 34% chance of pairing the flop.Quote:
Have you got any numbers on how often we see A/K on the flop? I'm not comfortabe to be throwing second barrels with 33 unimproved. Its the second barrel which defines the opps hand when I have AK. ie- Call=weaker kicker, fold= I don't know or care what he had, raise= I'm beat (sans read).
?
The 3 types you described.... Pretty much tight re-raising pre-flop and really weak Ace games post-flop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Would this min-raising not become very transparant and easily exploitable to anyone with half a brain and position on you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
...which is why he doesn't do it in the 50/100 game...Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I think 200NL and up you will find at least one person on most tables who will realise what you're doing. And anyway, at my tables if I do this I end up with a pretty big multiway pot with a weak hand OOP? Not a great result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I assume when we talk of using this strat, its concerning hands like KQ, KJ, QJ right?
Suited broadways, AQ+, 22+Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
AQ/AK I can see it happening allright. I used to use a tactic like this at 25/50NL to build pots w/ AK. Stopped at 200NL because I figured someone would cop on.
Why do it with 22? Surely I want to get raised with 22 presuming the raiser has more then air.
How about even being MORE trickier :cool:
UTG: Open Limp AA-77
However ONLY reraise with QQ-99 and only CALL raises with AA, KK, 88, 77 [maybe even 66-22 if you think those are profitbale--another topic]
(Note that this is just pocetpairs I'm discussing right now.)
Eh?
If you [I'm] going to reraise, then how much should it be?Quote:
Originally Posted by sunfunbunch
How would I play the flop?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunfunbunch
What!!?? Why would we want to play our hands as unprofitably as possible? I know you're going to say "to be deceptive" but there is no table where the need to be deceptive is so great as to justify giving up this much straight value on out hands.
AK is getting the best of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Not when you consider implied odds. Not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
AK won't pay off big unless he hits. When he hits there are only 2 cards left for you to hit. Even in those cases, if he's any good and/or you're too passive he's not playing for stacks. More often you will have to fold to his c-bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Not in my experience. Lots of guys love to play for stacks here, even at 200NL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
22 is a bigger winner then AK for most people right?
Generally I will raise AQs and AJs in EP;AQo maybe if the game is not too tight.AJo I am mucking from EP.