A Song of Ice and Fire ***MAJOR SPOILERS from a game of thrones up to TWOW***

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

I am going to be very upset if s5 doesn't include Jon lobbing off Janos' head and the whole Commander choosing. Both of those scenes are better for Jon's character than any other. But if I laid money on it I would bet that the show will do neither. It appears they've already given Jon the Commandership by default, and they would probably decide that they don't want to tempt compromising Jon's status as a pure hero to the audience by having him cut off Janos' head.

I'm already pissed Barristan didn't pwn Nero. That was one of the best scenes in the books due to how awesomely the old man abused Nero with just a staff. The show had better make up for it with a fight in Hizdarh's chamber. But IMO it should be against two of the pit fighters and Barristan should make swift work of them both. The books give Barristan flaws due to his age, but the show shouldn't. They need to make him as ultimate as they've told us he is

I hope I don't hate what they're planning with Jaime, but I'm sure they will. Some of my favorite stuff in the books was him dealing with Blackfish.

If Hotah doesn't control the room by slamming the butt of his staff against the floor, the show fails

If Arianne doesn't ooze sexy, the show fails

I'm expecting Brienne's story to completely change, and for the better. Hers was pretty weak in AFFC. The show already greatly improved the character by adding that goatscene of her killing those three guys in front of an impressed Jaime

I very much hope the show digs into the dramatic irony of Cersei's idiocy and makes no attempt to convince the audience that she's not destroying herself with each of her dumb decisions

A strength for the show could be bringing Tyrion deeply into the Dany story, where he enters her inner circle quickly and becomes trusted. The character is simply just very strong when he holds power and needs to outsmart people

I feel like they're gonna have to up the war-heaviness of Stannis vs Boltons, since it appears there's no Manderly. That shouldn't be a problem since it would be exciting to see Stannis and Davos get win after win. Freys need to fucking die, but I suspect the show has forgotten about that need.

Perhaps you'll disagree, but I want a complete overhaul of the Faceless Men/Arya thing. I am not enjoying that too much in the books, and I think it translates poorly to the show. They straight up need to bring Jaqen back and make it less religious/self-discovery oriented.

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arienne got cut.
jamie will be in dorne this season.

HOW CAN YOU NOT ENJOY THE KINDLY OLD MAN AND ARYA?

it just feels weak. the show will improve that situation, just like it improved every other one of arya's mentor relationships

fuck you /r/asoiaf and fuck you curiosity

r/asoiaf makes the books 100x cheddar.

what happened?

Count me in as somebody who thinks Tyrion Targaryen could be true. It's dumb though

dont read the thread about the night's king iyam.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comme...r_part_of_the/

threads like this are the reason why i wade through the endless razor thin tinfoil

I can't believe it's acceptable for the show to move beyond the books. GRRM and the publisher will probably lose millions because of that. Hell HBO probably loses some by having less hype (HYPE!) from the books leading into seasons

Correct book release strategy would be for TWOW announced during the final weeks s5 and released about 7 months before s6. Then hopefully with enough material to get 8 seasons, GRRM could finish ADOS in two years (totally doable) and get it out months before the final season

Unless ofc they hate money

Read the reddit on night's king btw. Frankly I don't care. The books are so much better. The show is great as an adjunct. It gives me opportunity to add visuals, but beyond that the books reign. And I predict we'll all be so spoiled by the show and I know what it's like reading the books that I'm spoiled on and it just isn't nearly as good but dammit I'll do it

Besides, the greatest TWOW of all time would be one that incorporated the top 20 reddit theories. A Song Of Ice And Cleganebowl: The North Remembers The Secret Targaryen Bolt-on Jojen Paste. Written by Howland Reed as High Septon and Girl Varys.

Cleganebowl is no theory.

GET HYPE

even if grrm wasnt planning on having more hound, i think he has become the best character of the whole series

do you guys read other fantasy

HOT TAKE incoming:

I've saved myself a lot of time and grief by not thinking about ASOIAF after finishing the books. WoW is a dog to be released in 2015 and the series has .1% equity to be finished. GRRM has completely lost interest in his story probably because writing the last two books was an even more awful experience than reading them. Can't say I'm excited for a bunch more fake cliffhangers where people "die" and Dany in Mereen for 3k more pages. But words are wind amirite

That said I am still excited to see where everyone ends up thanks to the great narrative created 15 years ago. I might even pull a (insert friends name) and read the cliffnotes.

glgl

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

That said I am still excited to see where everyone ends up thanks to the great narrative created 15 years ago. I might even pull a (insert friends name) and read the cliffnotes.

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fu.

(insert wire reference here)
(insert dave chappelle reference here)

You want it to be one way.

Winds of Winter is gonna take this to the back and get into some diabolical brutality, ya feel me?

If I was advising grrm, I would tell him that he should ditch some of his vision in order to expand it to what asoiaf needs to be. This isn't new to him since it was originally supposed to be a novella and then a trilogy. He should accept that the show will become something entirely different and that it will end long before the books do. More importantly, he should accept that the story has become global. The seasons are a global phenomenon, which means that any story to do winter justice must give substantive weight to Asshai, Sothoryos, and Ulthos. Nobody knows if the Grey Waste and the Five Forts are Essos' version of the Land of Always Winter and The Wall, but they kinda have to be to make the narrative make sense.

So basically the show should just do what grrm was planning with Dany in Westeros and blah blah, but the books should totally depart and turn the story global, opening up new lore about the role of Sothoryos in the song of ice and fire. It should probably end up with something like Dany never even gets to Westeros, but instead leads an army against the legions of the night as they attack from an ice landbridge that extends from the Land of Always Winter, across the Sunset Sea, into Yi Ti and Asshai. Sothoryos and Ulthos should be realms of Summer, with important roles. Meanwhile Stannis and Jon battle it from Westeros. Then in about book 9, A Dream of Summer can finally happen

Sadly this will not come to pass

I feel like grrm is such a doof that he doesn't feel the pressure or understand why it is of paramount importance to get the books done before the show. So we'll be left with the books finishing years after the show, without that dramatic of a difference. So far the changes from book to show haven't hit bone. I suspect they will ultimately have different endings, but not that much different. Aegon and the Greyjoys will probably end up just as irrelevant in the books as they obviously will be in the show. Some major characters may end up in marginally different spots. Others, like Jaime, I suspect may die in the books yet not in the show, but his life won't make any difference to the end of either.

Speaking of which, Jaime totally has to die. Redemption arc much? The only thing that makes me think he won't die is that last time we saw him, he was in lots of trouble, which means he won't die. GRRM is predictable with his deaths, they only happen when you're told they won't, and they don't happen when you're told they will

Two things I think will happen in the end:

Tyrion is Lord of Casterly Rock, yet the Lannisters are in utter ruin (all those IOUs), and he loses the rock and the Lannister name dies. Tywin's wish crushed, Tyrion's final wish fulfilled

Littlefinger, Lord of the Vale, is defeated at the Eyrie, and is King of the Ashes in his oh so perfectly constructed fortress of impregnable plans

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerp...nds-of-winter/

New Alayne chapter.

i still havent read any of the twow chapters. not sure if im going to.

so basically stannis doesn't care about the throne. he instead believes he is the savior of mankind. THAT is why he would kill his daughter. he would not do it for the throne. also, if he's stuck in the snow about to die marching on winterfell and the LoL deems it fitting for him to die, he would say fuck the prophecy because clearly he isn't the chosen one.

he would only kill his daughter to fulfill a prophecy, not to further a small piece of an overall agenda that's indirecly related to prophecy

dnd have told no story of prophecy, so this is why he looks so fucking awful and obsessive over the throne. shireen is going to be burned in the books, but it won't be over this idiocy. i always assumed it will not be by stannis in the first place. him rejecting it could be a sort of final rejection of the prophecy. but still it's fine if he would do it for prophetic reasons. not this hogwash melting snow

Doesnt he not really care for his daughter in the books? I feel like they humanized him in the show and made that relationship a lot stronger than it is.

Also, he left red lady behind didnt he? I swear he did, because I remember believing she was gonna revive Jon after the mutiny.

yeah both daughter and mel are at the wall. this is why i thought the show would have a huge reveal in stannis dying then mel sacrificing shireen to revive him but it actually reviving jon. scratch that now. i have no fucking clue what is gonna happen with jon. i mean, can they really kill him and leave it like that for a whole year? i guess they could, but man so many viewers would be livid.

i dont think he is that fond of his daughter in the books (he's not fond of anybody), but i think his principles rule, and those dont invole him killing his daughter for his own life, the lives of his men, or the throne. i think he would only do that to fulfill the azor ahai prince who be dat promisey prophecy

stannis might be my favorite character, other than hound obv, because he's such a pure tragedy. my hope for him is by the end of his tragedy, he develops some agency and rejects his fate. it would be an incredible twist on the classic tragic figure.

or i would be fine with him being azor ahai. grrm made a special character out of him, able to engage trope or subvert it, whichever he wants.

I'm quietly enjoying the last time we book readers get to know what's gonna happen in the show while everyone else else speculates. Cheers.

honestly the thing i most anticipate is seeing how they're gonna end it with jon. i mean, the books make it obvious he isnt dead, but good lord what if the show straight ganks him then rolls credits? i cant imagine how horrible some people will feel, not knowing that he aint really dead.

The show'll straight gank him and roll credits. And everyone will be where we are now - but maybe he can warg? but maybe those redheaded hot tits can brind him back?

The show is going to great lengths to make everyone think ...

Spoiler: Show

he is really dead. For instance, he has said in an as of right now unpublished interview that his contract has not been renewed

sigh did you watch the leak

no

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

sigh did you watch the leak

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Liar! Where?

no clue

sorry i shoulda put a super spoiler on that.

Seriously tho, I think Stannis be dead. Hes got some chapters apparently in the next book (spoil tags if you read them, please), but this show event is just too huge for him to not be dead now. Given the books are all like "Stannis aint even the real prophet" and Mel never going with him in the first place, I dont see many good things happening to him in book 6.

i havent read those chapters. i think bad things will happen and stannis will eventually become commander of the night's watch.

if he's dead, man, killing him like this was beyond bad. just beyond bad. like, star wars prequels level bad. it means nobody in the writing room chimed in and said "hey george d&d lucas, if we're actually killing stannis, the dumbest possible fucking thing to do is end with a swing and shout from his killer"

Oh dont get me wrong, I thought the episode was terrible and agree with you on why it was terrible. But I still think they killed him b/c of my Mel-show theory so I think hes also gonna face some bad thinsg in the books. (Add to that his failure at the Blackwater b/c no mel, and I think hes gonna fail here b/c no mel)

That said, he'd be a great commander of the nights watch. That'd be really interesting, almost moreso than Jon.

i think shireen's death could have more meaning only because of how stupid it is if all it did was melt snow. but if it does have more meaning, im going to choke on my own tongue.

also beric was revived because thoros prayed for it.

i guess i could see d&d choosing such a horrible scenario as mel saying "oh LoL that ol girl was sacrificed for you days ago and i didnt like the results so gimme better ones..."

originally i thought stannis and jon would die in the same ep, then mel would sacrifice shireen to save stannis but instead it would save jon. then roll credits. this would have been cool and reasonable all around

Stannis not dying there would be the most ridiculous thing ever.

like 50X more unrealistic than anything you've posted about being unrealistic, Wuf.

Brienne beat The Hound in single combat. She ain't never fucking up that kill against a crippled opponent who accepted his fate.

jesus

dude you gotta read what people say.

it isnt that she fucked it up. instead, she didnt do her duty and realized such in anger and hit the tree instead.

it'd be okay if you think stannis is dead because he is portrayed as such and you're along for the ride, but virtually every other reasonable interpretation is that he's not. even all the meta interpretations about how cinema is made suggest he's not dead.

besides, this isnt just dnd. grrm likes these sort of silly fake-outs too. he tried to convince readers that davos was dead for like 6 years.

stannis dying like this couldnt be more out of character for the show.

So like, she hit the tree and then couldn't finish the job when he was lying there crippled?

Stannis can't come back from the dead, there's no reason for him to and he's just not that important of a character.

Plus, Jon Snow is coming back from the dead and it'd be too goofy for Stannis to also do it.

like killing Stannis is the principle driving force in Brienne's life. It's one of the main reasons she's still in the bloody show.

or i could be wrong. whatever.

she misses on purpose. he told her to do her duty, and right then she realized that she wasnt doing her duty. her duty, her oath to keep, is to catelyn. stannis is her temptation away from her duty.

It looks like a tremendous amount will be cut from the books from here on out. It appears that several plots, the Greyjoys, Quentyn, The North Remembers, blind Arya, and a few more are being done for s6. So it looks like to me that D&D are just wrapping up ADWD and what we know about TWOW so far and then moving straight into the resolution of the series. Whereas I think GRRM will probably do way more than that in the middle, probably ending with 8 books.

ah i finally figured out one sensible reason for not showing stanny's death. they didnt want to spoil twow, which is likely to be out before s6.

still a butchering of one of the most compelling characters.

Okay, I'm fucking tired of the internet. Casting shit is already coming out for S6 that apparently spoils even more shit about TWOW. And its going to be impossible to avoid it for the next year plus until TWOW comes out. The show is going to completely despoil my experience of reading the remaining books, whether I choose to watch it or not.

Getting spoiled on Stannis's battle and Shireen is just 100% suck. Mel showing up inexplicably at Castle Black all but spoils not only Jon's death, but the manner of his undeath. Though I find it likely that he will use both Ghost and Mel to rez in the books, while the show all but eschews the existence of direwolves. The lack of Iron Islands and Dorne plots basically portends that these plots will have limited meaning in the books. Not to mention Aegon, Mance, Rickon, and Stoneheart stuff. I understand that they have to contract a lot of that material, but it doesn't change the fact that it detracts the book experience. I will certainly not be watching this series going forward.

Im totally with you. Its fucking stupid that they are releasing that kind of information; and that people even want to talk about it. I feel like knowing the actors in Season 6 is akin to a crewman blabbing about how the season will end.

Its dumb from the show's perspective too. I get the sensationalism of clickbait/whatever, but the show should be doing what it can to maintain mystery and secrecy. Less people will watch if they know whats gonna happen :/

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Originally Posted by Renton

Okay, I'm fucking tired of the internet. Casting shit is already coming out for S6 that apparently spoils even more shit about TWOW. And its going to be impossible to avoid it for the next year plus until TWOW comes out. The show is going to completely despoil my experience of reading the remaining books, whether I choose to watch it or not.

Getting spoiled on Stannis's battle and Shireen is just 100% suck. Mel showing up inexplicably at Castle Black all but spoils not only Jon's death, but the manner of his undeath. Though I find it likely that he will use both Ghost and Mel to rez in the books, while the show all but eschews the existence of direwolves. The lack of Iron Islands and Dorne plots basically portends that these plots will have limited meaning in the books. Not to mention Aegon, Mance, Rickon, and Stoneheart stuff. I understand that they have to contract a lot of that material, but it doesn't change the fact that it detracts the book experience. I will certainly not be watching this series going forward.

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FWIW some of this is not what it seems. Some is probably true divergence while other is a re-imagining. For example, the most reasonable theories I've seen so far predict that s6 will include many of the Dorne elements that were absent from this season. This is likely true for a handful of different storylines too. It's sorta like how Meera and Jojen didn't show up until late compared to in the books.

I think they haven't cut any characters. Instead they're delaying some for later and merging others. Even with LSH it seems like the significant things she does may be done by others.

Maybe you shouldn't watch the show Renton. My claims that the spoilers are meager comes from my lack of care for the spoilers the show gave. It sounds like perhaps they would be a big deal to you.

However, if it matters, here's my read of how the show and books will play out:

D&D know the end of ADWD and beginning of TWOW, and they're gonna resolve that. They also know what GRRM told them about the ending, and they're going to move into that after they resolve ADWD/TWOW intro. However, GRRM is going to tell a much different story in the books. He knows much more than what D&D know. He's a gardener and they're just trying to get it over with so they can move onto different projects. I do not think it's improbable that GRRM ends up changing his mind and makign something quite different than the show. Keep in mind that it could be 8 books and even if it's 7 books, ADOS is coming out after 2020, several years after the show is done.

Is it possible that all this time Ned has been breaking his promise to Lyanna? What if the promise she wanted was that he would install Jon on the throne but he didn't want to do that and the bastard story is the cover up?

It never sat right with me that Ned never told Cat the truth about Jon. It's not like she would blabber. It would be better for her to know. Unless Ned didn't want anybody to know because he didn't want a Targaryen on the throne, even if it was his nephew.

The ToJ battle also never sat well with me. Why exactly would the KG be protecting Lyanna from Ned? How is it that Ned and co. end up killing them all but then take a Targaryen baby into safe haven? If he was going to do that, he wouldn't have been a threat in the first place.

The kingsguard would be pretty shitty kingsguard if they were to trust a usurper with the rightful heir to Westeros. They can't know Ned's intentions, and even if they did, it's still against their code to release Lyanna from their protection. The ToJ as remembered by Ned seems to be a fairly trustworthy account.

honestly i dont give a shit what happens to any of the characters or any of the plots other than stannis and the hound. theyre easily the two most compelling characters. the fan theories of the mannis being the 1000th nights watch commander and the gravedigger saving jaime/brienne/sansa in cleganebowl are even more beautiful arc constructions than walter white.

for the show, that is. the books and show are kinda merged for me though. the books have several additional compelling elements, like wyman manderly and barristan's irony in trying to help dany but probably dying while accidentally hurting her.

Maybe you shouldn't watch the show Wuf.

mb ur mom shouldnt watch teh show

I just want this god damn book to come out for chrissakes.

GRRM actually died two years ago, and his publicist has been covering it up.

lol

I gotta be honest, I would totally endorse a handful of redditors taking over. Gimme some fucking euron = daario, howland reed = high septon, children of the forest = hivemind, faceless man valyrian doom, cleganebowl, grand northern conspiracy, bolt-on, aJOR AHai hype!

the hound is the valonqar. you can take that to the bank.

i think lots of people will do valonqary things, but hound is the one that makes sense to be described as "the little brother". tyrion and jaime are red herrings. grrm's playing irony by having cersei think physical stature designates who 'the little brother" is, when it's really gonna be a guy nobody would call little except he is still "the little brother" to the mountain.

cleganebowl will fucking happen.

now that's actually one of Wuf's insane tinfoils i could get behind

Wuf, seriously, if you don't care about any of the major characters or plot lines why are you even a fan of the show?

what i meant is that i dont care about any specific outcomes for most of the characters. i like a lot of them, but they could live or die, go bad or good, sail across the sea or don't. im okay with whatever.

what im not okay with is the mannis drowning in a puddle and losing my front row seats to cleganebowl. hound and stannis are the most compelling characters in the story and their arcs have only concluded the second act.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

grrm's playing irony by having cersei think physical stature designates who 'the little brother" is

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Prolly Rickon, then.

Sup?

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

what i meant is that i dont care about any specific outcomes for most of the characters. i like a lot of them, but they could live or die, go bad or good, sail across the sea or don't. im okay with whatever.

what im not okay with is the mannis drowning in a puddle and losing my front row seats to cleganebowl. hound and stannis are the most compelling characters in the story and their arcs have only concluded the second act.

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I've got to read back in the thread now, but after all your objections regarding these two deaths (they're dead, btw) it was interesting to see that both Sandor Clegane and Stannis' deaths (dead, both of them) were "off screen" in the books too. Stannis' (death, because he's dead) was even more "off screen" in the books than in the TV show.

stanny the manny aint book dead yo

im 10000% convinced hound comes back too

Nah bro.










but for real, is that just your wish, or a hunch, or do you have some evidence aside from your typical "Literature 101, bro-- this isn't how story arcs work, Checkov's Gun, warble garble, blah blah" type of hand waving?

Stannis being alive would be the dumbest plot twist ever in the history of words and books, writing and your mom.

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Originally Posted by boost

"Literature 101, bro-- this isn't how story arcs work, Checkov's Gun, warble garble, blah blah"

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lol i love it

on the mannis, pretty sure everybody thinks he's alive in the books. im not sure what all the reasons are, but the two main ones i remember are the explanations for the person writing the pink letter not being ramsay and the fact that grrm very regularly tries to make his readers think somebody is dead by saying he's dead off screen. i forget how many of the pink letter explanations are good, but it's mance rayder. that's solid imo. most of the astute redditors seem to think stannis will probably win the battle of ice too. the show totally cut the northerners from the stannis plot, but the books havent.

as for hound, there is extremely compelling evidence that he's alive. if he is, he's the gravedigger. the main evidence is that the description of his horse is the exact description of hound's horse, stranger. and stranger was violent towards all people not named hound.

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Originally Posted by baudib

Stannis being alive would be the dumbest plot twist ever in the history of words and books, writing and your mom.

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yes, given his s5 arc, this would be utterly terrible.

but his s5 arc is utterly terrible in comparison to the books

Gravedigger? Who?