Agree completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddem
FWIW, I don't think the secluded model would be terrible if we could at least legalize and bring back some of the fish. In the long run, I don't see how this would last as the benefits of a global model far outweigh the negatives. I think it's just a matter of time.
daviddem, please don't spew text diarrhea. It is not illegal for a U.S. citizen to play. It is not illegal for a US resident to play. If it is in fact actually illegal to play poker online (I still think this is a grey area, and that the FBI warning is ambiguous in that it could just be referring to payment processors and affiliates) then it is illegal for anyone currently on U.S. soil. If a wanker from across the pond comes over here, he will get pulled over when he drives on the left side of the road. It doesn't matter that this is the legal lane to drive in back in the U.K., it is illegal here. Similarly, if there were an American law that made it illegal to drink vodka on a Sunday, an American visiting Poland could happily enjoy a fifth of Belvedere on a lazy Sunday Afternoon without fear of prosecution by either the Polish courts of the American courts.
Now the sites can chose what the criteria is for exclusion. And so the requirements to play will differ from site to site.
Also, I don't know that I'm as opposed to using a VPN as some others. I probably won't do it, but to be clear, it is not as simple as just getting some random VPN service. If you don't know what you're doing and don't set it up/ have it setup properly, when you VPN connection drops for whatever reason, your client will auto try to connect via your normal connection. For some less stringent sites this is a non issue, but who knows what parameters they have set to throw up red flags. Also, you need more than just a VPN for even the least stringent sites. You virtually need to mimic having taken residence in whatever country you chose. That means you need a mailing address, a phone, bank acct, etc. And that leads us to a real legal grey area where what we are doing in order to play (while still residing in the states) is not dissimilar to bank fraud/money laundering.
So the reasonable choices seem to be A) move on, stop being a fat lazy internet dweller with Dorrito stained fingertips and get out into the real world, or B) move to another country and carry on being an internet warrior.
My post was meant to be more directed in this area. You have to know what you are doing otherwise the option is VERY bad...Another option that hasn't totally presented itself yet is the option of a grind house. Canada ain't that far for some of us :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by bikes
Calm down, I was just pointing out a minor oversight. I know you're pissed off with the situation but gtfo with these ridiculous strawman arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddem
You obviously have a lot of very interesting views, you should write them all down in a letter to PokerStars, I'm sure they'll make for fascinating reading.
The vast majority of ways to make money online do not involve playing poker. They also tend to be much more difficult, despite what some poker players will tell you about how hard the game is due to having imperfect information (which everyone deals with) and rake (a legit point), and how mentally difficult it is to withstand variance. I'd argue that putting up with a boss while working in a cubicle 8+ hours a day and living paycheck-to-paycheck is a lot more stressful than 10 buyin downswings.Quote:
So the reasonable choices seem to be A) move on, stop being a fat lazy internet dweller with Dorrito stained fingertips and get out into the real world, or B) move to another country and carry on being an internet warrior.
But ya, that was mostly just a tangent, I agree with you that for the foreseeable future, living in the U.S. and making money playing online poker are completely incongruent.
The cheeky marketing emails have started......
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadbrokesPoker
^ lasted for 8 pages, usually it hits well before that
lol .....this is the one i got from LAdbrokes poker
Dear Keith,
Important Account Information
This has been sent to all customers as it contains important account information.
It's been a very long time since you have used your Ladbrokes account and we are writing to inform you of the choices that are available on how to manage the credit balance that remains on your account. If you do not take action then after a minimum period of 28 days from the date of this email we will begin to charge an Inactive Account Fee (as per section 15 of our Terms and Conditions) on your account. Full details of this charge are included later in this message.
To avoid paying any charges, please review the following options and choose the one that you prefer:
1) If you choose to resume betting, all you need to do is log in to your account and place a bet using the credit balance.
2) If you've decided you no longer wish to bet with us you can log in to your account and withdraw your current balance. It is possible that your card and account details are out of date so you may wish to check and update them first to enable you make a withdrawal.
3) You may choose to donate your balance to the Ladbrokes in the Community Charitable Trust which donates funds to good causes throughout Great Britain. To do this, email us at [email protected], expressing your wish to do so along with your username or Customer ID.
4) In addition to options 2 and 3 you may wish to close your account for good, in which case after withdrawing your funds email us at [email protected] and ensure you include your username or Customer ID with your request to close your account.
If you take any action as described above your account will be protected from the Inactive Account Fee for a period of no less than twelve months from the date of activity.
If you experience any issues with the above options you can contact our customer services team by detailing any problems you are having to [email protected]. Our customer services team will be pleased to help you through the process but as we are experiencing high levels of correspondence at the moment it may take us a few days to get back to you.
Don't worry, we have notified you with plenty of time to spare so please be reassured that your email will be actioned before any charges (see below) are applied to your account. In the meantime you may find the Frequently Asked Questions useful.
Inactive Account Fee details:
This charge will only be applied to funds in your Ladbrokes account and will apply at £2 (or currency equivalent) or 5% of the balance of the account on the date the account becomes inactive (whichever amount is the greater) and after the first day of every following calendar month until the account balance is reduced to zero. The total of funds in each wallet (e.g. poker, casino) will be used as the basis for calculating the charge. If at any time you reactivate your account by carrying out betting activity or you withdraw your funds the charges will cease. At no time will any request for payment of funds above and beyond those already in your account be made.
Many thanks for taking the time to read this email.
Kind regards,
Ladbrokes.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevster
Ive got 116 of them - i think every site on prima poker just sent me an email whether i bonus whored them 5 years ago or not.
Ive been offline for 7 days with a phoneline problem (rabbit chewed through it) and cant believe this.
At very worst, i hope every US player gets a cheque for their winnings.
Im assuming that to us eurotrash places like party are still safe?
did anyone notice as well how every rakeback site emailed you to tell you you had been idle and not deposited for several months.
Yea emails are expected and I have a ton. Even the slot and BJ sites are getting in on it.
I love how Ladbrokes are bragging about how customer funds will be safe due to them being based in an offshore UK tax haven. Thanks for reassuring me about my stars bankroll, Ladborkes.
I'm getting emails from live poker clubs here in NYC all with the: "Well, online poker has hit the fan...time to play live!"
Mother fuckers don't understand that that just pisses me off more.
What the fuck are you even talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Gibraltar. Isle of Man. Do you need more help piecing this conundrum together?Quote:
Originally Posted by kevster
watQuote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
@keith lol at you may choose to donate your balance to charity
Note the bold text.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
How many of you are depositing anything at the remaining U.S. friendly sites? I only played on ft and stars and I'm tempted into just playing somewhere else, but I'm hesitant for obvious reasons.
Has anyone else thought about this or already done this? I would think it is only a matter of time before the others are shut down as well.
don't do it IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorcery11
thoughts from some 2p2 regQuote:
Originally Posted by Sorcery11
^Quote:
Originally Posted by zachvac
"..unless it's just to satisfy your fix and an amount you don't mind losing."
WHO'S UP FOR SOME 5NL?! ammirite? lol
Anyway, yeah I'm not putting anything on another site. Maybe like $100 of screw-around money but that would be it. Sadly grinding is going to be put on indefinite hold for me. Going to plan a few trips to AC or Foxwoods with the US-based portion of my roll. Will be interesting to see when (imo not really convinced the right word there is 'IF') the other sites get hit. It's a matter of time, unless DOJ happens to think they're not worth it.
The way it looks right now... and this is obv a very fluid situation... we're looking lucky that these sites seem to be trying to save face instead of cutting and running. Of course we don't know for sure, but you know, who knows I guess. I'd expect the smaller operations trying to win customers right now to potentially fly at the first sign of trouble. Kind of like the guy on the street corner playing shell games.
Not true. There is no federal law against playing poker online. In fact, Washington DC just legalized it. There is a federal law preventing banks from transacting money with online casinos. That law also prohibits players from passing money to online casinos on behalf of others. Finally, there is a federal law banning sports betting over telephone lines, which DOJ wants to apply to all online casinos, but that's a load of BS that has never played out in court.Quote:
Originally Posted by dneureiter
ChezJ
BTW, at the risk of jinxing it, my UB software has updated itself twice since Friday, making me think the new versions would kill off my access, but so far I can still get in and play real money. Only difference is that the annoying UB ads are now blocked. Still 12K+ players right now at 11:30 p.m. on a Monday, and I think that's about normal. When I played on Sat morning, it was still tight-rock city. What's up with that?
Hey Chezj, I play on UB as well. I'm pretty sure the software updates were to refer to software to the new .eu domain they're running. I play on mac and my software didn't connect once the .com was seized. They've since updated that...
As for the # of players.... inb4closedtoAmericans I guess lol. I'm going to go play for a little for the heck of it while I still can. I'm sure there would be more ppl on the other two sites if folks weren't blocked. UB has kind of been stumbling around wondering what to do the whole weekend, imo. They're pretty lackadaisical about all this. Not that I expect them to be on top of their shit like the other two lol but I can wish.
aren't you 2 suspicious about cereus's intentions if they're still letting U.S. players play..?
There's always the possibilty the their payment processors are legit, since this whole thing is more about illegal bank stuff rather than actual poker. But of course, there's no way to be sure, and play at your own risk of the smaller networks getting frozen/leaving US markets as well in the future.
Edit: There's also the chance that the government just hasn't gotten to those networks yet either, but I can't imagine why they'd leave those networks alone if they had the evidence of illegal banking like they did with Stars/FTP/UB.
Yeah. I'm not sure what good it does for them (there's a rumor they're not letting new accts sign up so possibly no huge cash grab). Sure, rake, but seems to me the numbers are way down even for them so it's not like it's ridiculous numbers there either.
I mean at this point I'm going under the assumption that I'm almost certainly fucked so I guess that's why I'm not acting like I'm losing my mind. I lost my mind on Friday/Saturday and came to terms with the fact that all is mostly likely lost. If I ever see any portion of what's in my acct I'll be extremely happy.
on the QJ broadcast this lawyer was on there and she made a very interesting point.
about how this was attack on the three sites was classified that it seems like there are other charges that the DoJ has not yet taken action on. She was saying that it very well could be people like Howard Lederer being indicted or it very well could be the other poker sites out there getting shut down.
I'm assuming the lawyer wasn't someone involved in the process? It would be a massive breach in confidentiality to go on the show and give unannounced evidence/preceding information like that. The information however is still a very useful prediction of what could happen. (Inb4 who trust laywers) That info seems to back the "wait and see" plans a lot of people are thinking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by vaks
Seperate note, I'm assuming they've pulled the Pokerstars Big Game TV show? I usually watch it when at work, and it went to a couple infomercials tonight. I'm not surprised they pulled it (unless it just wasn't airing this week?), but I am surprised at how quick it was pulled.
I did watch Poker After Dark PLO they had on, but I don't think I saw a single FTP ad, which makes sense.
Anyone know if they Big Game was infact pulled?
Pokerstars reply to my attempt at changing my address to Perth, WA
Hello Samuelm,
Thank you for your email.
Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you with a country/address
change at this time.
We will endevour to provide you with further assistance as soon
as the situation is clearer.
If you wish to visit the Cashier to request a cashout, you may
still do so without further delay.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you, and we
thank you for your understanding.
Regards,
Silke
PokerStars Security Team
And then this is their response to my email asking them to void a bounced check they sent me
Hello Samuel,
Thank you for your email.
We are sorry to hear that your cheque has been returned. In order
to assist you further, please provide us with a scanned copy or
screen capture of the front and back of your bounced cheque. If
you have been charged any administrative fees by your bank due to
this return, please also send us proof of those bank charges
(i.e. a scanned copy of your bank statement).
Once we receive these copies we will contact our processor and
investigate the matter urgently.
To send a screen capture please do the following:
1. Press the "Alt" or "fn" button and the "Prnt Scrn" buttons
together while you are in the screen you want to capture.
2. Paste (Ctrl+V) the image into your Paint program
3. Click on "File" then choose "Save" (remember where you save
the file)
4. Send an email to us and choose the "Attach" option to add the
saved screen capture to your email as an attachment
5. To attach the file, browse your computer for the folder you
saved the screen capture in and then click "Open" to attach it
6. Send to [email protected]
If the instructions above fail to work you may wish to view an
illustrated guide found on the following link.
Learn how to make a screenshot / take-a-screenshot.org
We apologize for any inconvenience caused. Thank you for your
cooperation.
Please let us know if you have any further questions or concerns,
we will
gladly address them for you.
Best regards,
Maggie C.
PokerStars Payment Services
FML I would've liked to read 'and we will refund your account' rather than 'we will look into it urgently'
They no longer let Americans play either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imthenewfish
I just sat down at a table...
Aren't people suspicious of them thieving bastards anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Imthenewfish
OngBonga?Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I can still play there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
Yeah, apparently I'm the only asshole getting screwed. :( FMLQuote:
Originally Posted by NobleTruths
LOL at this from the DOJ press release:
You mean they're taking money on almost every hand played??? I'm outraged!!Quote:
Of the billions of dollars in payment transactions that the Poker Companies tricked U.S. banks into processing, approximately one-third or more of the funds went directly to the Poker Companies as revenue through the "rake" charged to players on almost every poker hand played online.
Damn, this sucks, I loved playing o Poker Stars and I was starting to get a little bit better. Fuck I guess it's back to those damn Facebook Games.
Hello Marc,
We apologize for the delay in responding to your email.
Although you will be able to cash out via the PokerStars Cashier as per normal, we are unfortunately unable to immediately process cashout requests for US players as a result of the legal developments in the United States. We are making it a priority to work with the relevant authorities to secure the return of funds as soon as possible. We will promptly provide you with additional information as soon as it becomes available.
We apologize for the inconvenience this may cause and thank you for your patience.
Regards,
Yannick
PokerStars Support Team
Did anyone else see this article? Baby-faced Aussie high flyer Daniel Tzvetkof on bail | thetelegraph.com.au
Check out the date it was written...
how can pokerstars cheques bounce? Do they not come from Pokerstars bank account or are they from a merchant account???? Heard a few people say this and its puzzling me
US people have been successfully cashing out according to the QJcast, which is completely awesome btw. I've been listening non-stop since Friday.
Easy since when?
We've all had cashouts processed, but I haven't heard of an American have them hit their actual bank accounts.
No, that's the entire crux of this money laundering problem. You get checks from their payment processors, not from Pokerstars.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
Not sure, I just heard it on the Quadjacks podcast. It was a Stars cheque btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
They did say ten mins later however, Stars emailed the same guy today telling him they wouldnt be able to process cashouts hereafter. So I guess it's back to square one.
Sorry.
WHOEVER NEGGED ME, GO AND DIE
I WAS REPORTING WHAT WAS SAID
FAG
Sry if this has been posted already, epic song!
YouTube - Party at the DOJ
wow... This just in! Forum reps: srsbsns.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
Lol. There is even jargon for such a thing? Happen often?Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
Warning: homosexuals reportedly negging forum users undeservedly.
FTR represent!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
Don't worry, improper use of derogatory homosexual terms should improve your rep super-quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
neggers
i'm setting an example here this kind of crap will not be tolerated. he's temp banned. please use some common sense people. this series of events sucks for everyone but its no excuse for being a moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPoker
tyQuote:
Originally Posted by bikes
don't tell me you didnt smile even a little bit at "neggers"?
edit: not arguing against temp hammer, obv fine considering other post as well
Haha reminds me of that South Park where Stan's dad goes on Wheel of Fortune... lulz
ohhhhhh naggerzQuote:
Originally Posted by kdawgy80
anyone else slightly amused by point 10 in the FTP terms of service.. outlining that fraudulent transactions will not be tolerated..
the bounced check was credited back to my pokerstars account. my money is halfway home!
Back on topic:
Okay...I'll try to be succinct, but I'm looking for somebody to check my logic on this and this was the first website I thought of.
Department of Justice in the USA seized several payment processors for 3 of the biggest online poker sites. Pokerstars, FullTilt and UltimateBet. They are using the Safe Port Act of 2006 as a basis and claiming that it was a money laundering scheme. Pertinent, in my opinion, information:
SAFE Port Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia states specificallyTitle VIII of the Act is also known as the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (or UIGEA). This title (found at 31 U.S.C. §§ 5361–5367) "prohibits gambling businesses from knowingly accepting payments in connection with the participation of...Money laundering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia defines money laundering asMoney laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate. The money involved can be generated by any number of criminal acts, including drug dealing, corruption, accounting and other types of fraud, and tax evasionhttp://www.mauinews.com/page/content.de ... tml?nav=18 explains why Poker is not gambling, to whitPoker is not gambling. Anyone trying to classify it as such does not understand the game. Poker is a skills game much like bridge, chess, backgammon, golf and bowling. Yet, if anyone were to organize a bridge tournament with prize money, no one would think twice about allowing it. The perception of poker comes from what people see in movies and on television in old Westerns. Nothing could be further from the truth in today's modern game. Today's game is one of mathematics where players can win a hand not just by the luck of their cards, but by out-playing their opponents and forcing someone with a better hand to fold.So my question is...from how I see it, IF money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally obtained money, and UIGEA says that it prohibits gambling businesses from accepting payments, but it's common knowledge that poker is not gambling, how does this tie together?
It's been upheld that poker isn't gambling: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... oker_N.htmCOLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — South Carolina poker players may not be sure when to fold 'em even after a judge ruled Thursday that Texas Hold 'em is a game of skill.I'd like opinions on this.
The main problem with this is that the payment processors were lying to the US banks about the money. Instead of saying "this is money to/from a poker player to/from a poker site", they say "this is money to/from an International Fund" (or whatever they mask it with). A lot of this is simply because the banks were lied to (I think a word used frequently is 'tricked') by payment processors into handling poker ("gambling") money, and the funds go in and out of the banks, which is laundering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
Which the UIGEA is against obviously.
Edit: the usual /imo at the end.
My opinion is that the entire case hinges upon the definition of poker as a game of chance or skill.
If it's a game of chance then all the charges apply.
If it's a game of skill (the big court's opinion, not ours) then poker is not illegal under the UIGEA, therefore the money was not obtained illegally, therefore no money laundering.
The problem is the bank and wire fraud: hiding the actual nature of the transactions by showing false companies to get the banks to accept the payments.
Hmm, doesn't the pornography and adult novelty industry do something similar to avoid embarrassing their customers.
Either way it's going to be quite a while before any politician will come anywhere near this issue to get legislation passed through congress and quite a while before the legal case is decided. However, if the courts rule that poker does not fall under the pervue of the UIGEA, even if the big 3 get convicted of bank fraud, then I think the flood gates for online poker will open.
I'd use the word luck, not chance, when defining the arguments of skill or not.
they are pretty much screwed on the bank fraudQuote:
Originally Posted by Shotglass
http://www.donkdown.com/forum/myths-...&relocate=true
Where is this person getting their facts? None of the myths or facts spouted are either. I would recommend this person learn what a fact is before spouting off this crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by bikes
I tried to cash out and haven't had the money show up in my account yet. Should I just wait and see what happens, or cancel the request.
It's irrational, but I'd rather have my money somewhere where I can see Balance: x,xxx.xx, than have it just floating around somewhere not in any account.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pres...reementspr.pdf
Great news!
{Edited to reflect great instead of good news}
holy crap that's great news
Nice!
UB/AP is now f***ing U.S. Online play for U.S. is now suspended there...got the message this morning. I blame this on BooG690.
Ya, they are shady fucks, wouldn't mind seeing the DOJ destroying them after players are refunded.
Do you think CEREUS/UB will be treated differently because they offered Blackjack and other casino games to their players?
in the release it said FTP/PS had to agree to cut off Americans in order to return our funds