Pineapple Strategy Thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric

Should I have completed the boat?

Eric
:ofc9::ks::ofc9::kh::ofc11::qc:
:ofcset::2c::ofc7::7h::ofc7::7c::ofc11::js::ofc13: :7s:
:ofcset::4s::ofcset::4d::ofcset::4h::ofcset::6d::o fc13::tc:
Discard: Q:spade: 6:spade: 9:heart: 7:diamond:


BaldBullBot (dealer)
:ofcset::ac::ofc7::2s::ofc11::2d:
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Discard: K:club: 9:diamond: 6:club: 4:club:

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At the second draw, you catch KK6. You know two Qs are already dead (on the first draw, opp played one, and you mucked one), and one A is gone, so KK on top is your best chance to make FL. Your back hand is already made with 444 and you have one pair in the mid. With two draws to go, you see that two deuces are live, and on the next draw if you don't catch a pair to solve your problem, you can set the livest card you draw in the mid to give you more outs for the last draw. You might also catch one of the 3 boat/quads cards on the third draw, which would make the last two 7s outs on the last draw too. Given that KK on top is worth 8 points and that you make FL if the hand completes, I think this is a spot where you should go for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Losartan

Did I play it right?

Losartan
:ofcset::qs::ofc7::qh::ofc13::9c:
:ofcset::kc::ofc7::ad::ofc9::9h::ofc11::qc::ofc13: :qd:
:ofcset::4d::ofcset::td::ofcset::kd::ofc9::4h::ofc 11::kh:
Discard: 6:spade: 7:heart: 6:club: 5:heart:


GlassJoeBot (dealer)
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Discard: 2:heart: 6:heart: 4:club: 3:spade:

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The good news is that you made FL with the route you took, and that given your set, you got what you could out of the hand. There are a couple of alternate plans on the set, but whether they are "better" is a tricky question.

Some might set :ofcset::qs: / :ofcset::kc: :ofcset::kd: / :ofcset::4d::ofcset::td: or :ofcset::qs: / :ofcset::kc: :ofcset::kd: :ofcset::4d: / :ofcset::td:

As the cards came, they both make FL anyway. The idea behind these sets is that by placing the KK in the mid, you only need to catch a Q for the top and some combination of cards to make 2 pair or better on the bottom. There certainly is value in setting 3-flushes, but you always have to balance out all of the factors in the hand. Given that you have another K and a Q, I think that the K:d: has more value in the mid to make KK than in the bottom as part of a 3-flush.

Did I set it right?

ribbangga (dealer)
4:h: / 5:d: K:d: / A:h: A:s:

ugottabekiddingme
X / 7:h: 6:s: / 5:c: 3:c: T:c:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OneByPhi

The good news is that you made FL with the route you took, and that given your set, you got what you could out of the hand. There are a couple of alternate plans on the set, but whether they are "better" is a tricky question.

Some might set :ofcset::qs: / :ofcset::kc: :ofcset::kd: / :ofcset::4d::ofcset::td: or :ofcset::qs: / :ofcset::kc: :ofcset::kd: :ofcset::4d: / :ofcset::td:

As the cards came, they both make FL anyway. The idea behind these sets is that by placing the KK in the mid, you only need to catch a Q for the top and some combination of cards to make 2 pair or better on the bottom. There certainly is value in setting 3-flushes, but you always have to balance out all of the factors in the hand. Given that you have another K and a Q, I think that the K:d: has more value in the mid to make KK than in the bottom as part of a 3-flush.

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Thank you very much for your point of view.
I'm new in PineApple. Is it easy to catch 2 pairs in the bottom with only 2 single cards such as T-4 ?
Do we have decent odds to get a valid game with Q/KK/T4 ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ribbangga

Did I set it right?

ribbangga (dealer)
4:h: / 5:d: K:d: / A:h: A:s:

ugottabekiddingme
X / 7:h: 6:s: / 5:c: 3:c: T:c:

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Your set will very seldom lead to fouling, but will also very seldom lead to FL or to big royalties. I think you'd get more value out of the FL cards (AAK) on the set by playing the K on top and AA in the mid; the question is what to do with the 45 considering that opp has set a 7, a 6, a 5, and a 3. I think I'd tend toward K / AA45 / xxx, but I don't think K / AA / 45 is unreasonable. If you set K / AA45 / xxx, your goal is to catch a K for the top (or backdoor QQ) and to try to make 2 pair or better on the bottom. The actual path you take is highly dependent on the first draw. If you catch a pair, obviously you play them in the back. But the deck is rich in cards 8-Q, so if you catch any 2 of them connected, you play them in the back and then either draw at a straight or 2-pair depending on the next draw. If you set K / AA / 45, again the plan for the top is to catch a K for the top (or backdoor QQ), but on the bottom you're going to have to decide whether to chase a straight or 2-pair based on the first draw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Losartan

Thank you very much for your point of view.
I'm new in PineApple. Is it easy to catch 2 pairs in the bottom with only 2 single cards such as T-4 ?
Do we have decent odds to get a valid game with Q/KK/T4 ?

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If you are UTG, you are a little better than 56% to catch exactly 2 pair, plus you have an additional small chance to catch a boat or even quads. Furthermore, since your T4 is suited and there are still 10 diamonds in the deck, you can also backdoor a diamond flush. Yes, you will sometimes foul with this set, but if you seldom foul, you aren't going to make FL very often either.

Did I play it right?

Losartan (dealer)
:ofc7::qh::ofc7::ks::ofc13::kc:
:ofcset::ah::ofcset::ad::ofc9::3c::ofc9::th::ofc11 ::8h:
:ofcset::9c::ofcset::5s::ofcset::4d::ofc11::9h::of c13::9s:
Discard: J:club: J:diamond: A:club: 4:club:


GlassJoeBot
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Discard: 2:club: 3:heart: 3:diamond: 2:spade:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Losartan

Did I play it right?

Losartan (dealer)
:ofc7::qh::ofc7::ks::ofc13::kc:
:ofcset::ah::ofcset::ad::ofc9::3c::ofc9::th::ofc11 ::8h:
:ofcset::9c::ofcset::5s::ofcset::4d::ofc11::9h::of c13::9s:
Discard: J:club: J:diamond: A:club: 4:club:


GlassJoeBot
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Discard: 2:club: 3:heart: 3:diamond: 2:spade:

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Agressive way to FL obviously

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Losartan

Did I play it right?

Losartan (dealer)
:ofc7::qh::ofc7::ks::ofc13::kc:
:ofcset::ah::ofcset::ad::ofc9::3c::ofc9::th::ofc11 ::8h:
:ofcset::9c::ofcset::5s::ofcset::4d::ofc11::9h::of c13::9s:
Discard: J:club: J:diamond: A:club: 4:club:


GlassJoeBot
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Discard: 2:club: 3:heart: 3:diamond: 2:spade:

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GlassJoe would have done better to set K/23/76, but your set is open to multiple approaches. Your set got you to FL on this hand, but I am not wild about setting 954 offsuit in back. As for the Aces, I argue with friends about whether it is better to put them in the mid or on top in a spot like this. If I was going to set them in the mid, I'd play xxx/AA54/9 with the goal of catching KK or QQ on top and 9s-up or better in back. The alternative would be to set AA/54/9, and it's the line I would have taken. One advantage to this line is that the top is made for your FL attempt. Your opp didn't set any 4s, 5s, or 9s, so all your outs are live. He did set a K, so there's one less K to make KK on top (yeah, I know, you did end up catching two Ks and making the Land, but we're talking general cases here, not what actually came off the deck).

I think either of those sets is likely to do better over the long haul than the line you took.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OneByPhi

GlassJoe would have done better to set K/23/76, but your set is open to multiple approaches. Your set got you to FL on this hand, but I am not wild about setting 954 offsuit in back. As for the Aces, I argue with friends about whether it is better to put them in the mid or on top in a spot like this. If I was going to set them in the mid, I'd play xxx/AA54/9 with the goal of catching KK or QQ on top and 9s-up or better in back. The alternative would be to set AA/54/9, and it's the line I would have taken. One advantage to this line is that the top is made for your FL attempt. Your opp didn't set any 4s, 5s, or 9s, so all your outs are live. He did set a K, so there's one less K to make KK on top (yeah, I know, you did end up catching two Ks and making the Land, but we're talking general cases here, not what actually came off the deck).

I think either of those sets is likely to do better over the long haul than the line you took.

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You're gonna bust so much time with AA/54/9 aren't you ?
I do not like this set because it pushes us to catch up our outs in the middle and the back lines.
I'm not sure it is EV+ in the long run...
It is definitely an ultra-agressive approach

Did I play it right?

Losartan
:ofc7::qs::ofc9::qh::ofc13::6c:
:ofcset::kh::ofcset::ks::ofc9::ac::ofc11::2s::ofc1 3::2h:
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Discard: 3:spade: 9:diamond: 7:spade: 4:diamond:


BaldBullBot (dealer)
:ofcset::qc::ofc7::ts::ofc13::kd:
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Discard: 2:club: 3:heart: 9:club: 3:club:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Losartan

Did I play it right?

Losartan
:ofc7::qs::ofc9::qh::ofc13::6c:
:ofcset::kh::ofcset::ks::ofc9::ac::ofc11::2s::ofc1 3::2h:
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Discard: 3:spade: 9:diamond: 7:spade: 4:diamond:


BaldBullBot (dealer)
:ofcset::qc::ofc7::ts::ofc13::kd:
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Discard: 2:club: 3:heart: 9:club: 3:club:

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A few months back I made a post on playing pat full houses (you can find it here: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...fc-196858.html ). I love your idea of splitting up the boat. The question is whether to set the KK on top or in the mid. In the actual hand, setting the KK in the mid worked out great since you backdoored QQ for the top, and you would have fouled if you had played the KK to the top. Furthermore, your set will almost never lead to a foul. However, to make FL, you either have to catch two Qs, the other two Ks, or two As and another pair for the mid. I'd argue that this set is "safe" but doesn't get as much FL-value out of the KK as the alternative.

I think reasonable players can reasonably disagree about where the kings should go, but with the back hand already solid with the trips, I like the KK better on the top because the top of the FL draw is already made, and you can make a hand by catching either 2 aces or any 2 pair for the mid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Losartan

You're gonna bust so much time with AA/54/9 aren't you ?
I do not like this set because it pushes us to catch up our outs in the middle and the back lines.
I'm not sure it is EV+ in the long run...
It is definitely an ultra-agressive approach

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Geez, I need MadMojoMonkey to shed some light on the actual math, but I've played tens of thousands of POFC hands, and I'd argue that AA/54/9 will get there often enough to make it the best play.

I was frustrated when I first started playing a lot of POFC about 9 months ago that there was so little good information about the game. So I played a lot of hands both live and against the bot here (by the way, the other bot, BadBullBot, plays considerbaly better than GlassJoe), and most of what I have learned about strategy has come from looking at results over many, many hands. Put in the time playing hands with the bot, trying different lines with hands like this, and decide for yourself what works best. Alternately, sit down with a deck of cards, take out the AA954, and play many hands from that start (shuffling the rest of the deck each time). It'll be time-consuming, but after 100 hands or so of each of the 3 sets we've discussed, you should start to get a decent idea of how things work out.

Thank you very much for your time and your analysis.
It is very pleasant and valuable to read your comments.

Did I set it right?

wilbur (dealer)
X / 4:c: 4:d: / Q:h: 7:h: 2:h:

morgui
Q:c: K:d: K:c: / 5:s: 6:d: 6:c: A:c: A:h: / 9:d: 8:d: 2:d: T:d: 7:d:

Did I play it right?

Losartan
:ofcset::qs::ofc13::6s::ofc13::7s:
:ofcset::kd::ofc7::8h::ofc9::4s::ofc11::9h::ofc11: :kh:
:ofcset::jc::ofcset::js::ofcset::tc::ofc7::5h::ofc 9::jh:
Discard: 3:heart: J:diamond: 7:heart: 2:spade:


morgui (dealer)
:ofcset::9d::ofc9::8s::ofc13::ac:
:ofcset::4c::ofcset::3s::ofc7::ks::ofc9::9s::ofc11 ::4h:
:ofcset::qh::ofcset::th::ofc7::qc::ofc11::6h::ofc1 3::6d:
Discard: 8:club: 3:diamond: 3:club: 7:diamond:

Did I set it right?

Sleepy20_98
X / 8:d: A:d: / 5:s: 7:h: 7:s:

PokerPrince3 (dealer)
Q:c: / 6:d: / T:h: 5:c: 5:h:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilbur

Did I set it right?

wilbur (dealer)
X / 4:c: 4:d: / Q:h: 7:h: 2:h:

morgui
Q:c: K:d: K:c: / 5:s: 6:d: 6:c: A:c: A:h: / 9:d: 8:d: 2:d: T:d: 7:d:

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Setting the 3-flush on the bottom with a pair in the mid is fine. The goal is to make the flush low, 2-pair or trips in the mid, and a backdoor FL pair on top (AA or KK). Alternately, you could set Q:h: / 7:h: 2:h: / 4:c: 4:d: to try to make QQ / 2-pair or trips (or even a backdoor flush if the back hand improves enough early to support a flush in the mid) / bigger 2 pair or trips or boat or quads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by morgui

Did I play it right?

Losartan
:ofcset::qs::ofc13::6s::ofc13::7s:
:ofcset::kd::ofc7::8h::ofc9::4s::ofc11::9h::ofc11: :kh:
:ofcset::jc::ofcset::js::ofcset::tc::ofc7::5h::ofc 9::jh:
Discard: 3:heart: J:diamond: 7:heart: 2:spade:


morgui (dealer)
:ofcset::9d::ofc9::8s::ofc13::ac:
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Discard: 8:club: 3:diamond: 3:club: 7:diamond:

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I think you'd do better in the long run by setting Q:h: / 4:c: 3:s: / T:h: 9:d:. Try to get value out of your FL cards on the set. The way this hand actually played out, you'd end up fouling the hand with the best line (yes, you could make QQ/333xx/6789T with the cards that came, but the line that gets there is not the optimal line to take), but the goal in setting hands is to give yourself the best chance to make FL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PokerPrince3

Did I set it right?

Sleepy20_98
X / 8:d: A:d: / 5:s: 7:h: 7:s:

PokerPrince3 (dealer)
Q:c: / 6:d: / T:h: 5:c: 5:h:

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After you opponent shows you a 5, I think it's better to set Q:c: / 6:d: 5:c: 5:h: / T:h:. The point of setting a pair low is to try to make trips or better, but with one of your outs gone, you're better off pursuing QQ/6655/Tens-up or better.

Did I play it right?

bine.stern.1 (dealer)
:ofc00::ofc00::ofc00:
:ofc00::ofc00::ofc00::ofc00::ofc00:
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zaggs67
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Discard: 2:club: 8:diamond: 5:diamond: 3:club:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zaggs67

Did I play it right?
zaggs67
:ofcset::qd::ofcset::qc::ofc7::9c:
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Discard: 2:club: 8:diamond: 5:diamond: 3:club:

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The set is fine. You don't show the opponent's cards, but assuming that he has no Kings, I think you could play the first draw better. The K:c: goes in the mid, but the 9:c: should go in the bottom. Since you have a K for the mid and QQ already made on top, breaking off the straight and flush draws on the bottom to make a pair of 9s is the best play. If opp has no 7s or 9s, you have 5 outs to make 2 pair or trips on the bottom and 3 Ks for the mid. When the next draw comes KT8. make KK in the mid, and set either the T or the 8 in the back (whichever is more live). With the top and mid made, you have as many as 8 outs twice (depending on how many of your cards opp has) so you are probably a very big favorite to make FL. When the 3rd draw brings 522, play a brick to the top and one to the mid. Happily, the 9:d: comes at the end, and you make your hand.

Some people overvalue 2-straight-flush, sets, but you should be willing to abandon them immediately if an advantageous first draw comes. A straight is just 2 points, and a flush just 4, and the chance that you will backdoor a straight flush is ridiculously slim. Moreover, you still might make a boat or even quads in back after making 997 on the first draw.

Did I play it right?

CristianB (dealer)
:ofcset::ofc0::ofc9::ofc0::ofc11::ofc0:
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vlad1234
:ofcset::6d::ofc9::8d::ofc13::jc:
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:ofcset::ks::ofcset::js::ofc7::as::ofc11::5s::ofc1 3::9s:
Discard: 6:club: 2:diamond: 3:diamond: 4:spade:

Did I play it right?

CristianB (dealer)
:ofcset::ofc0::ofc9::ofc0::ofc11::ofc0:
:ofcset::ofc0::ofcset::ofc0::ofc7::ofc0::ofc11::of c0::ofc13::ofc0:
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Discard: 7:heart: 7:diamond: 9:diamond: K:diamond:


vlad1234
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Discard: 6:club: 2:diamond: 3:diamond: 4:spade:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

... and the value of FL in pineapple MUST BE greater than regular, since you get an extra card.

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New here and love the ofc games. Know this is an old post but I doubt if this is right. Going to FL seems like it's worth a lot more value in regular. Your opponent will just set much better hands in pineapple than in regular more so than the one extra FL card gains you. I'd want to play me in FL vs villain in OFC vs villain in pineapple FL and me playing pineapple pretty much any day, right?

I think what MMM meant was that your POINT expectation is higher, not that your net gain is higher. With 14 cards, big hands come up more often. But since your opponent is seeing 17 cards, and gets his 4 draws 3 cards at a time, his point expectation is much higher. Still FL is well worth it, and you should show a net gain on your FL hands of somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 points over the long haul.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreyIce

I'd want to play me in FL vs villain in OFC vs villain in pineapple FL and me playing pineapple pretty much any day, right?

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I'm a little fuzzy on what this means, but if you're saying that in Pineapple you'd happily play outside of FL every hand and let your opp play in FL every hand, then please come to Seattle and play in my home game :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OneByPhi

I think what MMM meant was that your POINT expectation is higher, not that your net gain is higher. With 14 cards, big hands come up more often. But since your opponent is seeing 17 cards, and gets his 4 draws 3 cards at a time, his point expectation is much higher. Still FL is well worth it, and you should show a net gain on your FL hands of somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 points over the long haul.



I'm a little fuzzy on what this means, but if you're saying that in Pineapple you'd happily play outside of FL every hand and let your opp play in FL every hand, then please come to Seattle and play in my home game :-)

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If I could deal a hand and be in regular ofc fantasy land vs you in regular ofc then you could deal a hand where you were in pineapple FL and I was in regular pineapple I think I'd like that game. That's why I said I don't think saying pineapple FL has more value is right (or even all that close really).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreyIce

If I could deal a hand and be in regular ofc fantasy land vs you in regular ofc then you could deal a hand where you were in pineapple FL and I was in regular pineapple I think I'd like that game. That's why I said I don't think saying pineapple FL has more value is right (or even all that close really).

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Ah, now I understand. A lot of people say that FL is +13 EV in reg OFC and +9 or +10 in POFC, so you're right, that should be a good game for you.

Still, you get to FL way more often in POFC, and you get significantly more monsters and stay hands, so sometimes you can go on devastating POFC FL runs. I had one here at FTR against Eric when I had 7 stay hands in a row for a sick run of points.

Also, many people play variations of POFC that make FL even more valuable. Some rules give 15 cards, for example, either for every FL hand or for AA+.

POFC is a fast-paced game and the draws get there so much more often than in reg OFC that if you have a high tolerance for variance, it's just way more fun to play.

Did I play it right?

jasty2k
:ofcset::qd::ofcset::qh::ofcset::4s:
:ofcset::8d::ofc7::8c::ofc9::jc::ofc9::5d::ofc11:: jd:
:ofcset::kh::ofc7::3h::ofc11::7s::ofc13::4h::ofc13 ::2h:
Discard: 4:diamond: Q:spade: 5:spade: 9:diamond:


ramols (dealer)
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:ofcset::ks::ofcset::6s::ofcset::as::ofcset::9s::o fc7::ts:
Discard: 3:club: 2:diamond: 3:diamond: 2:club:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jasty2k

Did I play it right?

jasty2k
:ofcset::qd::ofcset::qh::ofcset::4s:
:ofcset::8d::ofc7::8c::ofc9::jc::ofc9::5d::ofc11:: jd:
:ofcset::kh::ofc7::3h::ofc11::7s::ofc13::4h::ofc13 ::2h:
Discard: 4:diamond: Q:spade: 5:spade: 9:diamond:


ramols (dealer)
:ofc11::5c::ofc11::kc::ofc13::7c:
:ofcset::jh::ofc7::8h::ofc9::6h::ofc9::th::ofc13:: 5h:
:ofcset::ks::ofcset::6s::ofcset::as::ofcset::9s::o fc7::ts:
Discard: 3:club: 2:diamond: 3:diamond: 2:club:

---

Set qq/K4/8 instead. When 843 comes on 1st draw, play 8 low, 4 mid. When QJ5 comes on 2nd draw, play J low, 5 mid. When J75 comes on third draw, play J low, 5 mid. When 942 comes on the end, play 9 top, 4 low.

You end up with
QQ9
K4455
88JJ4
and make FL.

Did I play it right?

kps43
:ofcset::qc::ofc7::2d::ofc13::jd:
:ofcset::jc::ofcset::ad::ofc7::9s::ofc9::ks::ofc11 ::ac:
:ofcset::5h::ofcset::7h::ofc9::9c::ofc11::9h::ofc1 3::th:
Discard: 3:diamond: T:diamond: 2:club: 3:club:


GlassJoeBot (dealer)
:ofcset::qs::ofc11::ah::ofc13::kc:
:ofcset::8d::ofc7::6h::ofc9::7s::ofc9::8s::ofc11:: qd:
:ofcset::4h::ofcset::4c::ofcset::2h::ofc7::kh::ofc 13::as:
Discard: 4:diamond: 6:club: 8:club: 8:heart:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kps43

Did I play it right?

kps43
:ofcset::qc::ofc7::2d::ofc13::jd:
:ofcset::jc::ofcset::ad::ofc7::9s::ofc9::ks::ofc11 ::ac:
:ofcset::5h::ofcset::7h::ofc9::9c::ofc11::9h::ofc1 3::th:
Discard: 3:diamond: T:diamond: 2:club: 3:club:


GlassJoeBot (dealer)
:ofcset::qs::ofc11::ah::ofc13::kc:
:ofcset::8d::ofc7::6h::ofc9::7s::ofc9::8s::ofc11:: qd:
:ofcset::4h::ofcset::4c::ofcset::2h::ofc7::kh::ofc 13::as:
Discard: 4:diamond: 6:club: 8:club: 8:heart:

---

Sadly, there's not a lot to be made with this hand, but you could have gotten a bit more from it.

I'd set Q:c: / A:d: 5:h:/ J:c: 7:h: instead. As the hand plays out, you could make 9s-full-of-Jacks in the back if you set the bare J:c: low, but in general, I tend to set cards such that 6 < card < Q in the back. Down this line, the first draw brings 9:s: 2:d: 3:d:, so 9:s: low to provide a possible backdoor straight draw or at least 3 more outs for a 2-pair draw and 3:d: to the mid. 2nd draw is K:s: T:d: 9:c:, play 9:c: low to establish an 8-out 2-pair draw (not the T:d: which provides only a 3-out gutshot draw) and the K:s: on top to add FL outs. 3rd draw is A:c: 9:h: 2:c:, play 9:h: low for trips and A:c: mid to make AA there. Now you have trips in the back and AA mid, with 4 live outs for the top to make FL. The 4th draw brings the 3:c: to make 2-pair in the mid, but bricks otherwise, and you finish with:

:ofcset::qc: :ofc13::jd: :ofc9::ks:
:ofcset::ad: :ofcset::5h: :ofc7::3d: :ofc11::ac: :ofc13::3c:
:ofcset::jc: :ofcset::7h: :ofc7::9s: :ofc9::9c: :ofc11::9h:

Did I play it right?

NutsOrNada (dealer)
:ofcset::7c::ofcset::7s::ofcset::7h:
:ofcset::4c::ofcset::kc::ofcset::tc::ofcset::td::o fcset::th:
:ofcset::3s::ofcset::6s::ofcset::8s::ofcset::js::o fcset::as:
Discard: 9:heart:


GlassJoeBot
:ofc11::ah::ofc13::6d::ofc13::9c:
:ofcset::8d::ofcset::6h::ofc7::jc::ofc9::8h::ofc9: :9d:
:ofcset::2h::ofcset::2d::ofcset::4s::ofc7::ks::ofc 11::kd:
Discard: 3:diamond: 8:club: 3:heart: 5:spade:

Did I set it right?

NutsOrNada (dealer)
7:c: 7:s: 7:h: / 4:c: K:c: T:c: T:d: T:h: / 3:s: 6:s: 8:s: J:s: A:s:

GlassJoeBot
X / 8:d: 6:h: / 2:h: 2:d: 4:s:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NutsOrNada

Did I play it right?

NutsOrNada (dealer)
:ofcset::7c::ofcset::7s::ofcset::7h:
:ofcset::4c::ofcset::kc::ofcset::tc::ofcset::td::o fcset::th:
:ofcset::3s::ofcset::6s::ofcset::8s::ofcset::js::o fcset::as:
Discard: 9:heart:


GlassJoeBot
:ofc11::ah::ofc13::6d::ofc13::9c:
:ofcset::8d::ofcset::6h::ofc7::jc::ofc9::8h::ofc9: :9d:
:ofcset::2h::ofcset::2d::ofcset::4s::ofc7::ks::ofc 11::kd:
Discard: 3:diamond: 8:club: 3:heart: 5:spade:

---

Fuck, yes!

Wow, trips on top! Very nice, NutsorNada.

TRIPS-Brags here?

:p

GratefulDead
:ofcset::kc: :ofc11::ks: :ofc13::kd:
:ofcset::6d: :ofcset::3c: :ofc9::6c: :ofc11::3s: :ofc13::6s:
:ofcset::7d: :ofcset::7h: :ofc7::ad: :ofc7::ah: :ofc9::7s:
Discard K:h: 8:s: A:s: J:h:
BaldBullBot (Dealer)
:ofcset::qs: :ofc7::9s: :ofc9::5c:
:ofcset::7c: :ofcset::9c: :ofc11::2c: :ofc11::tc: :ofc13::4h:
:ofcset::8h: :ofcset::9h: :ofc7::qh: :ofc9::ac: :ofc13::5d:
Discard 8:d: 3:d: 4:c: 5:s:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GratefulDead

TRIPS-Brags here?

:p

GratefulDead
:ofcset::kc: :ofc11::ks: :ofc13::kd:
:ofcset::6d: :ofcset::3c: :ofc9::6c: :ofc11::3s: :ofc13::6s:
:ofcset::7d: :ofcset::7h: :ofc7::ad: :ofc7::ah: :ofc9::7s:
Discard K:h: 8:s: A:s: J:h:
BaldBullBot (Dealer)
:ofcset::qs: :ofc7::9s: :ofc9::5c:
:ofcset::7c: :ofcset::9c: :ofc11::2c: :ofc11::tc: :ofc13::4h:
:ofcset::8h: :ofcset::9h: :ofc7::qh: :ofc9::ac: :ofc13::5d:
Discard 8:d: 3:d: 4:c: 5:s:

---

Nice hand! 45-pointers are super-rare, especially when not in FL.

I wouldn't have done nearly as well with that hand because I would have set the AA in the mid on the first draw. I think that's the most profitable line in the long run because you will very, very seldom make trips/boat/boat by taking the line you took, and you may even have a hard time supporting KK on top with K/63/77AA after the first draw. However, if you take my line, all you have to do is catch a K (or backdoor QQ) for the top and catch a 7 or another pair for the back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneByPhi

Nice hand! 45-pointers are super-rare, especially when not in FL.

I wouldn't have done nearly as well with that hand because I would have set the AA in the mid on the first draw. I think that's the most profitable line in the long run because you will very, very seldom make trips/boat/boat by taking the line you took, and you may even have a hard time supporting KK on top with K/63/77AA after the first draw. However, if you take my line, all you have to do is catch a K (or backdoor QQ) for the top and catch a 7 or another pair for the back.

---

First Draw is the big descision in this hand. rest of the draws was easy game with the cards that i've become

I understand your line with AA in mid.

I play the AA in Back because

-> dont wanna block the strenght of my Mid to a pair of AA
-> i have max outs of the 6 and 3 and 2 As (8outs) that i couldnt set to mid when i put AA there
-> i have only one 7 left to make trips in back
-> With AA in back i have 3 outs to make FH and i am safe with a Top 2pair and can now catch 3s or 6s in Mid for a lower 2pair

what do you think about this points? and yes, there is no math inside my descision ;-)

greets
GD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GratefulDead

what do you think about this points?

I play the AA in Back because
-> dont wanna block the strenght of my Mid to a pair of AA

---

My idea on the first draw is to maximize the chances of making FL, and I still think that my line does that better than playing AA low. Furthermore, with 63 off in the mid you are very seldom going to make royalties in the mid (I'll grant that you did make 12 points, but that's just very rarely going to happen). If you set the AA in the mid, the best you are going to make in the mid is AAA for 2 points (and you have to improve the back considerably to support AAA in the mid, which is highly unlikely). Sure, you might catch a third 7 or backdoor a boat or quads, but mostly my line plans to settle on just AA in the mid. But points in the mid are just gravy if you make them, not the point of the play, making FL is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GratefulDead

-> i have max outs of the 6 and 3 and 2 As (8outs) that i couldnt set to mid when i put AA there

---

I'm not quite sure I understand this point. Yes, you have 8 outs to make 2-pair or trips in the mid if you play AA mid on the first draw, but mostly you aren't looking to improve beyond AA. If instead you are pointing out that there are still three live 3s and three live 6s to make 2-pair or better in the mid if you play the AA low on the first draw, yes, you're right. And, yes, you did end up catching 3 of those 6 outs, but that's not going to happen very often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GratefulDead

-> i have only one 7 left to make trips in back

---

True, but combined with the chance to either draw or backdoor another pair on the last 3 draws, you have a good chance to make a hand that beats AA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GratefulDead

-> With AA in back i have 3 outs to make FH and i am safe with a Top 2pair and can now catch 3s or 6s in Mid for a lower 2pair

---

You're right that this line won't foul very often, and you do have a good chance of making 6633 or some other 2-pair with 6s or 3s with a backdoor pair.

I'd need MMM to work the math all the way out, but your line is probably fine, and it certainly worked out superbly in this hand. Your reasoning seems sound to me.

-> I'm not quite sure I understand this point.

because i dont want to play with 8 Cards (3s/6s/As) in the deck that are deadcards for my setting.

I love this game! i played the game like a maniac with too much fouls and now after some changes to a safer style i am writing the reason, why i am such a nit :p

Thank you for the support!
Hope you understand my words. Would be easier to write such content in german

Did I play it right?

darkor77
:ofcset::7h::ofc7::6s::ofc9::4c:
:ofcset::tc::ofc9::ks::ofc11::kd::ofc13::th::ofc13 ::5h:
:ofcset::td::ofcset::6d::ofcset::3d::ofc7::jd::ofc 11::qd:
Discard: 3:club: 3:spade: J:spade: 5:diamond:


pdc (dealer)
:ofcset::4d::ofcset::6h::ofcset::9d:
:ofcset::4s::ofcset::5s::ofcset::7s::ofcset::9s::o fcset::as:
:ofcset::2c::ofcset::6c::ofcset::8c::ofcset::kc::o fcset::ac:
Discard: 2:heart:

Did I set it right?

TontonGrindeur (dealer)
X / 5:c: 8:d: / 4:h: 2:h: J:h:

XRAYANONYMS
3:s: 3:h: 9:d: / 5:s: 5:h: A:h: 7:h: 9:c: / 4:s: 9:s: 7:s: 8:s: K:s:

TontoGrindeur,

I would have set the same way.

pdc, looks good to me. Those 8 royalty points for the mid flush are nice.

Did I play it right?

pdc
:ofcset::ks::ofcset::kc::ofc11::qd:
:ofcset::5c::ofcset::5s::ofc9::7h::ofc9::tc::ofc13 ::3s:
:ofcset::8c::ofc7::8h::ofc7::jc::ofc11::ah::ofc13: :ad:
Discard: 7:club: 9:diamond: 2:spade: 9:heart:


BaldBullBot (dealer)
:ofc7::8s::ofc11::jh::ofc13::jd:
:ofcset::4c::ofcset::4h::ofc7::js::ofc9::6s::ofc11 ::6c:
:ofcset::qs::ofcset::qc::ofcset::9s::ofc9::qh::ofc 13::ts:
Discard: 4:spade: 2:heart: 2:club: 2:diamond:

Did I play it right?

weijer
:ofc9::jh::ofc11::js::ofc13::qs:
:ofcset::ad::ofcset::2d::ofc7::ah::ofc11::kc::ofc1 3::8d:
:ofcset::4c::ofcset::4h::ofcset::th::ofc7::ts::ofc 9::4d:
Discard: 7:heart: 3:spade: 4:spade: 5:spade:


ethan0514 (dealer)
:ofc7::ks::ofc11::qc::ofc13::as:
:ofcset::td::ofcset::9c::ofc7::9s::ofc9::jd::ofc11 ::kd:
:ofcset::6d::ofcset::6h::ofcset::6s::ofc9::5h::ofc 13::3c:
Discard: 2:club: A:club: 7:spade: 5:diamond:

Did I set it right?

weijer
X / A:d: 2:d: / 4:c: 4:h: T:h:

ethan0514 (dealer)
X / T:d: 9:c: / 6:d: 6:h: 6:s:

pdc, I would have set the fives bottom instead of mid but that's just me. Some would say your set is better.


ethan, I would have set the ace top instead of mid.

Interesting set hand while playing just now... How would yal set it?

A:h:K:h:T:h:A:s:Q:s:

Out of position.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Interesting set hand while playing just now... How would yal set it?

A:h:K:h:T:h:A:s:Q:s:

Out of position.

---

Q:s: up top
A:s: in the middle
A:h:K:h:T:h: on bottom

I actually had my first royal flush earlier today.

Hmm, I hate to break up a gsrfd. I guess either the way dhubermex said or Q:s: K:h: / A:s: A:h: T:h: / X

Oh, and congrats on the rf, dhubermex!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric

Oh, and congrats on the rf, dhubermex!

---

Thanks! Since then I've been pretty much pwned but the game is super addicting--especially when playing for FTR points on our in-house software.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dhubermex

Q:s: up top
A:s: in the middle
A:h:K:h:T:h: on bottom

I actually had my first royal flush earlier today.

---

ya that's what i went with. i also like eric's set.

how about these two from my session today?

Q:h:K:h:Q:d:6:c:6:d:

Q:c:Q:s:7:h:7:d:7:h:

I think I would go for FL so

:qh: :qd:
:kh:
:6d: :6c:

and

:qc: :qs:
{nothing}
:7h: :7d: :7c:

ya that's how i set both too.

:highfive:

yeah, me too

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Interesting set hand while playing just now... How would yal set it?

A:h:K:h:T:h:A:s:Q:s:

Out of position.

---

The line you took--Q:s:/A:s:/A:h:K:h:T:h:--is perfectly reasonable, but I think a strong case can be made for K:h:Q:s:/A:s:A:h:/T:h:. You give up the very unlikely chance for a royal in back and the likely chance for a regular flush in back to greatly increase your chances for FL. Down this line, you only need to catch a K or a Q for the top and some hand that beats AA in back. This may or may not be the best line with this starting hand, but it has its merits.

Yeah, it's hard to not put KC in front with AA mid. Then again there's the tilt factor too. Psychologically it's harder to recover from a missed royal flush than a missed fl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneByPhi

The line you took--Q:s:/A:s:/A:h:K:h:T:h:--is perfectly reasonable, but I think a strong case can be made for K:h:Q:s:/A:s:A:h:/T:h:. You give up the very unlikely chance for a royal in back and the likely chance for a regular flush in back to greatly increase your chances for FL. Down this line, you only need to catch a K or a Q for the top and some hand that beats AA in back. This may or may not be the best line with this starting hand, but it has its merits.

---

ya, it's close. i go back n forth between these two... i think your line is prob better.

Another interesting one from today:

A:d:K:d:Q:d:7:d:7:s:

OOP.

Hmm, I can see why some people would go X / 7:d: 7:s: / A:d: K:d: Q:d:. I can also see conservative players going for the ace high flush instead of the rf by putting all 4 diamonds on the bottom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric

Hmm, I can see why some people would go X / 7:d: 7:s: / A:d: K:d: Q:d:. I can also see conservative players going for the ace high flush instead of the rf by putting all 4 diamonds on the bottom.

---

ya i was going to set it that way, then went more like phi by setting K:d:Q:d: / A:d: / 7:d:7:s:

edit - could also see setting the K:d: in mid instead of up top here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric

Hmm, I can see why some people would go X / 7:d: 7:s: / A:d: K:d: Q:d:.

---

I like breaking the 4-flush to set a pair in the mid much more when there are no (or at most 1) FL cards involved. With a hand like T:d: 7:d: 7:s: 6:d: 3:d:, I like X / 7:d: 7:s: / T:d: 6:d: 3:d:. In this case, you'd be making FL very tough to reach for a very small chance to make a royal low.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric

I can also see conservative players going for the ace high flush instead of the rf by putting all 4 diamonds on the bottom.

---

The flush will usually get there, but again you've used up 3 FL cards on the bottom, and now you have a 7 in the mid with one already dead. This is a conservative line, but it's hard to see how this can be the best play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givememyleg

ya i was going to set it that way, then went more like phi by setting K:d:Q:d: / A:d: / 7:d:7:s:

---

This route gives up on the flush (and the royal) to maximize the chance for FL. This line also puts the 7s low to exploit the roughly 35% chance to catch at least one more 7. GMML is right; I'd take this line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givememyleg

edit - could also see setting the K:d: in mid instead of up top here.

---

Q:d: / A:d:K:d: / 7:d:7:s: gives you two ways to make a hand that beats QQ in the mid, but only one way to make an FL pair on top. Experience suggests to me that this line is a bit less likely to reach FL than K:d:Q:d: / A:d: / 7:d:7:s:

good posts phi - yeah i agree on the K:d: in mid.

Do you set the Q in front on the first draw or set the 8 for the mid-pair and the 4 on the bottom 4-flush the way I did?

What about the 3rd draw? Pair on nines in front or complete the bottom flush?

I didn't make fl but I did get a scoop.

Eric
:ofc9::as::ofc13::kh::ofc13::9s:
:ofcset::5c::ofcset::8c::ofc7::8d::ofc9::5d::ofc11 ::9c:
:ofcset::2h::ofcset::jh::ofcset::qh::ofc7::4h::ofc 11::9h:
Discard: Q:spade: 2:spade: 7:diamond: 4:diamond:


BaldBullBot (dealer)
:ofcset::kd::ofc9::td::ofc11::qd:
:ofcset::8h::ofc7::ad::ofc7::6d::ofc9::8s::ofc13:: tc:
:ofcset::2c::ofcset::jc::ofcset::6c::ofc11::ks::of c13::kc:
Discard: 6:heart: 9:diamond: 4:spade: A:heart:

Do you shift gears on the 1st draw and give up on the bottom flush by setting a pair of aces down there?


Eric
:ofc9::qh::ofc11::8c::ofc13::kh:
:ofcset::3d::ofcset::td::ofc7::5s::ofc11::3s::ofc1 3::5d:
:ofcset::8h::ofcset::9h::ofcset::ah::ofc7::ac::ofc 9::9s:
Discard: 4:diamond: 4:club: 7:club: 7:spade:


BaldBullBot (dealer)
:ofc7::jh::ofc11::5c::ofc11::ks:
:ofcset::3h::ofcset::3c::ofc9::6s::ofc13::jc::ofc1 3::kc:
:ofcset::8s::ofcset::4s::ofcset::7d::ofc7::8d::ofc 9::th:
Discard: 2:diamond: 9:club: 2:heart: 6:heart:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric

Do you set the Q in front on the first draw or set the 8 for the mid-pair and the 4 on the bottom 4-flush the way I did?

What about the 3rd draw? Pair on nines in front or complete the bottom flush?

I didn't make fl but I did get a scoop.

Eric
:ofc9::as::ofc13::kh::ofc13::9s:
:ofcset::5c::ofcset::8c::ofc7::8d::ofc9::5d::ofc11 ::9c:
:ofcset::2h::ofcset::jh::ofcset::qh::ofc7::4h::ofc 11::9h:
Discard: Q:spade: 2:spade: 7:diamond: 4:diamond:


BaldBullBot (dealer)
:ofcset::kd::ofc9::td::ofc11::qd:
:ofcset::8h::ofc7::ad::ofc7::6d::ofc9::8s::ofc13:: tc:
:ofcset::2c::ofcset::jc::ofcset::6c::ofc11::ks::of c13::kc:
Discard: 6:heart: 9:diamond: 4:spade: A:heart:

---

None of the above. Set Q:h: / 5:c: 2:h: /J:h: 8:c:. 1st draw play 8:d: low and Q:s: on top. 2nd draw play 5:d: and 2:s: mid. 3rd draw play 9:h: 9:c: low to make your hand and get to FL. Last draw play K:s: top and brick the mid with the 9:s:.

You end up with
Q:h: Q:s: K:s:
5:c: 2:h: 5:d: 2:s: 9:s:
J:h: 8:c: 8:d: 9:h: 9:c:

I know it's easy to see this in hindsight, but it's in keeping with the basic concept of trying to get value out of FL cards on the set.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric

Do you shift gears on the 1st draw and give up on the bottom flush by setting a pair of aces down there?


Eric
:ofc9::qh::ofc11::8c::ofc13::kh:
:ofcset::3d::ofcset::td::ofc7::5s::ofc11::3s::ofc1 3::5d:
:ofcset::8h::ofcset::9h::ofcset::ah::ofc7::ac::ofc 9::9s:
Discard: 4:diamond: 4:club: 7:club: 7:spade:


BaldBullBot (dealer)
:ofc7::jh::ofc11::5c::ofc11::ks:
:ofcset::3h::ofcset::3c::ofc9::6s::ofc13::jc::ofc1 3::kc:
:ofcset::8s::ofcset::4s::ofcset::7d::ofc7::8d::ofc 9::th:
Discard: 2:diamond: 9:club: 2:heart: 6:heart:

---

This is similar to the previous hand. I would have set A:h: / 3:d: / T:d: 9:h: 8:h:. 1st draw play A:c: top and 5:s: mid. 2nd draw play 9:s: low and 4:c: mid (lamenting playing the 5 instead of the 4 mid first draw, but the 5 was more live at the time). 3rd draw play 3:s: mid and 8:c: low. 4th draw play 5:d: mid and K:h: on top, making FL.

You finish with
A:h: A:c: K:h:
3:d: 5:s: 4:c: 3:s: 5:d:
T:d: 9:h: 8:h: 9:s: 8:c:

Again, the idea behind both hands is to get FL cards to the top on the set. I know a strong case can be made for setting xxx / A:h: 3:d: / T:d: 9:h: 8:h: instead, and I think that's fine too (although as the cards fell it would not have made FL). I know I love AA on top a little too much and that sometimes gets me in trouble. But in both of these 2 hands I'd say don't fall in love with 3-flushes to the point that you give away the value of FL cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OneByPhi

None of the above. Set Q:h: / 5:c: 2:h: /J:h: 8:c:.

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Thanks for the advice. I still get confused when there is a fl card but also a 3-flush. It seems like sometimes we want to break up the 3-flush and sometimes we don't. Is there a general rule or is it just situation dependent?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OneByPhi

This is similar to the previous hand. I would have set A:h: / 3:d: / T:d: 9:h: 8:h:.

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Same thing here. I'm not sure when to keep the 3-flush together and when to break it on the initial 5 card set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric

Thanks for the advice. I still get confused when there is a fl card but also a 3-flush. It seems like sometimes we want to break up the 3-flush and sometimes we don't. Is there a general rule or is it just situation dependent?

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Situation dependent, although almost always if 1 or more of the 3-flush cards is an FL card, I prefer breaking the 3-flush. Still, the shape of the hand as a whole matters. I know we talked in a recent thread about hands like A:d: K:d: Q:d: T:c: 9:s:, which some would set as xxx / T:c: 9:s: / A:d: K:d: Q:d:, hoping to luck into a royal, but I think has more value as K:d: Q:d: / A:d: / T:c: 9:s:.

But I think a hand like Q:h: T:h: 4:h: 2:s: 2:c: plays best as xxx / 2:s: 2:c: / Q:h: T:h: 4:h: because the combination of the 3-flush in the back and the pair of 2s in the mid are strong enough to provide good support if a pair of Ks or As for the top comes along in the draws.

Did I get too greedy with my set on the 2nd draw?

Eric
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