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When a large % of your value comes from taking down the blinds and you're opening lots of pots (having to often fold to resistance), 3x becomes very attractive.
Against looser/weaker players bigger openers have more value because they build the pot faster and make your flop + turn bluffs more profitable.
My btn raise is 3x and my SB raise is either 3x or 4x depending on the player in the BB. Other than that I just mash the bet pot button.
Seems like a bit of a style thing, I do pot behind limpers, 3.5x in UTG/UTG1/SB and 3x in CO/BTN. I minraise the BTN vs fold a lot/3bet a lot blinds.
I tried the 3x BTN last night, and it seems to fold out the blinds just as often as 3.5x. I couldn't tell if my opponents' 3b frequency changed, but it didn't change much, if at all. I generally raise 3x in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
I liked the 3x BTN open and will continue it long term. I'm still betting 3.5x (mashing bet pot) in all other positions.
@Daven - I have never been able to get my mind around opening for MORE UTG - it's the weakest non-blinds position at the table. Why invest MORE money in pots that have no hope of positional leverage to help them? My position stats have always showed good win rates MP, CO and BTN, and losses in the blinds (but less than half of what auto-folding would cost).
UTG has been a slight loser (less than MP is a winner, tho) since I got to 50nl+. I open a very strong range UTG: 77+, half 22 - 66, AQ+, KQs, AJs, and either 98s or 87s - sometimes both at tight tables. I don't like starting off with an extra 15% invested in a pot I'm going to struggle to win and that my opponent is going to pot control on me.
I pride myself on being willing to try anything, tho, so I suppose I should consider giving it a try. It just goes against everything I believe to be true about position and poker.
your utg range is (or should be) sick strong so we want to build a pot with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I open 3x from the button and SB, and 3.5x from all other positions. I tend to steal like a monkey from the button and have to fold to 3bets quite a lot, so that seems to work OK.
EDIT: I haven't tried the big UTG raise either, but can understand why it might make some sense. Might give it a shot.
Thinking about hand 1 more I like a c/f. I'm at my gf's now and don't have much time to talk about it but she lives 4hrs. away and while driving by myself I was trying to concentrate on strictly ranges and shit and his range just dominates yours. He's going to have a lot more aces in it and he can have like JJ-KK maybe some sort of T that probably isn't folding, sometimes even to 3 barrels. I can't really talk right now but I hope this makes sense.
Ben's writing my op posts before I can. I had the same sort of meh session he posted about where I played the fold half of my bet/fold like every time, got rivered in every small/medium-sized pot, and so forth. Still, only down a BI after 4 hours of the brutal side of poker, including a couple bad beats for stacks. Problem? Unlike Ben, I didn't finish well, stacking off TT < KK that was total spew.
I had started closing down tables 'cuz I felt like I was starting to tilt. On my last table, two hands from done, I stack off ridiculously light.
So down 2 BI's and reminding myself playing those "free" hands on the last round of my tables may not be in my best interest when I'm feeling the ol' tired tilt and angry tilt coming on.
Up 2.5 BI's just goofing off at 50nl this afternoon. I'm getting some additional stats for my group sweat session Wednesday.
Playing a level down is good therapy. Funny how SMALL all the bets feel, like everyone's playing for loose change. Also, it's a lot easier to make the reads than it was when I was grinding there seriously. I wonder if I've gotten a whole step better at my reads since 100nl, or if I outthink myself at my normal stakes. Or perhaps it's easier to make those Hero calls when the betting makes no sense when it's only $20 and harder when it's $40.
Since I staked Wesrman on FT, my bankroll is about 3.3k right now. Might goof more at 50nl later, probably not. I'm about "ground out." I've played a ton of hours in the last 3 weeks, and poker's not as fun as it used to be. I think I'll ease up today and tomorrow, ease back into things Wednesday with the sweat and maybe grind seriously this weekend.
Checked my stats, and I earned $20 an hour playing poker from 1-Apr until now. It's $35 an hour at 100nl, but that's a small sample. Oh, yeah, and $550 in rakeback since 1-Apr. I like the "part time job" focus on poker. It's still fun, still a great hobby, and starting to make some decent money. I ran the stats about two weeks ago, and I had earned $1.32 and hour lifetime. LoL. Maybe with rakeback it was $2 an hour. Wheeeeee!!
Like I said, I'm willing to try it. I'm just thinking it through right now. Still liking the 3x raise from the BTN. Tried that at 50nl, and once again it seems anyone who was folding for 3.5 is folding for 3x too. Like Daven said, it's nice raising 3x with KK and getting 3b by someone with 98s.Quote:
Originally Posted by XTR1000
Its not just our strong range. Also:
- We're happier to just take it down PF since we'll almost certainly be OOP postflop.
- Make odds less attractive after calls. Consider if we raise UTG and MP calls, suddenly those still to act start getting good odds with speculative hands.
If we're leveraging FE, that means we're playing against a stronger flatting range. Not saying that's a bad thing - if they'll flat a narrower range (that's still pretty well crushed by what we have), it might an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
Also, and I'd like to hear XTR's view on this since he also plays FT, there are some thinking regs at 100nl that will see it for what it is. Does that change their read on me? Probably not too much, since my stats are on the tight side of TAGG for the reg-wars there and they all have HUD reads on me.
Third thing I'm thinking is about implied odds when 3bet. If I open UTG for 4x, here's my range and reaction to a 12xbb 3bet:
...
...
I tried this, but it was a muddle. I need to think this through. I will post more thoughts later.
Take for instance AK. We dont mind calls, but frankly we dont mind folds either. Playing AK OOP is a touchy spot regardless of if we hit or not. Stronger flatting range doesnt really matter much, we'll rarely have a merged range here, we'll be polarised and as XTR said our value range will be very strong anyway.
Just be consistant. If you always raise 4x UTG then they cant really exploit that or 'see it for what it is'. You're still going to have much the same range, but now its more expensive for them to play against your 'bluff' range, and they put more money into the pot against your value range. Basically, they have to pay more for the privilege of position.
I mean, those are the reasons. I still dont do it, but thats really more of a lazyness thing. I admit I find the bet pot button easy and tend to use it other than OTB for PFRs.
yeah, I started opening UTG bigger after some comments from Nutsinho and spenda. Then I had a period of opening a very strong 99+/AQ+ UTG range for 2bb, then etc. I haven't settled on anything yet, but have developed arguments for opening anywhere from 2-5bb from utg. Whatever works best, i'm finding that it's table dependent = adjust etc, just like so much poker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I agree on the position comment, it's fascinating stuff - I'm mixing my UTG opens from 2.5bb-4bb at the moment, random-ish across my entire UTG range. I hope that someone gets a read that I open AA for 3bb UTG and AQ for 4, based on one showdown hand. I think there is some sort of value to be had hereQuote:
Originally Posted by robb
I think you´re overthinking things. There isn´t much to be read out of a pf opening size and most people you´ll be playing will either dont care or not notice due to 8-tabling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I consider the following factors:
o Position:
In general being oop should tone down our size, to avoid building a pot oop. Then again, we already consider the factor position to such a huge degree when we taylor our ranges, that our range itself covers the position issue. As Ben said, we aren´t too sad to take a pot down pre, we still like defining our hand a bit, discourage calls and encourage 3bets (b/c the range is so strong.) 3balling/squeezing becomes more attractive with growing opening sizes, assuming nothing else changes.
In position everything changes as Im fos most of the time there. Hence I like to risk the least on my bluff and calling changes do not change significantly over (3x;4x). Tbh 3balling ranges from the blinds/button are prob constant as well over (3x;4x), but technically 3balling me becomes less profitable, while my steal becomes more profitable with 3x. Calling ranges from the blinds widen a bit, but I´ll bet you that being IP makes it 0ev at worst, no matter what they do.
Now I somehow lost track of what I wanted to write. Cliff notes: FT regs dont care about ur opening sizes as long as its in the (2.5x;4x) area. Hence you can taylor your sizing exactly like you think its the most profitable for you, cuz no one will adjust/exploit/read you better. Dont overthink things, let that do your opponents^^
And btw, you got msn/aim?
fwiw, I believe I do get 3-bet more by openning to 3x OTB, however its easy enough to counter that by 4-bet bluffing slightly more (instant profit), and I lose less when I fold anyway. Also a higher chance of your monsters getting 3-bet.
Thanks for the help - I tried this a few times during a short session yesterday, and I don't think anyone noticed/cared. I try to keep an open mind, so I'll keep working on it.
@ msn/aim - I have a gmail account where I can IM and have MSN. But I don't fire up MSN much unless I have plans to chat, which is about once a year lulz - pm if you want my IM/email info.
CONFESSION: All right, I have a leak. Now that I'm at 100nl and have the opportunity fairly often, I have this obsession with betting $13. If I think the proper bet size is anywhere between $11 and $15, I bet $13. Just can't help myself. Stoopid, I know, but there it is.
Have you seen the video by pokey on 2+2 where he was saying about opening the button to 2x and that the blinds will fold to it just as often as they would to a 3x (or bigger) button raise.I'm pretty sure it was in this videoQuote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Z6CII9BG or for a .wmv version ( slightly bigger file size but less video problems (TSCC codec required for the other version)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=U1C0DCWS
or the thread link is http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...g-25nl-252810/
I watched it ages ago, still have it somewhere. I'm not convinced its a great idea. I've never had particular problems with people who do it v's me. You're basically offering terrific pot odds to the BB, and a combination of people who can adjust rationally, and fish who just call a lot v's your weak range make it an iffy proposition. Probably nothing wrong with trying it out on tables and if they dont adjust keep doing it I guess.
I've watched people adjusting to it on my tables, including me. I think it's pretty horrible against most of the players, but dozens of the tagg-fish use the "autofold" button in the blinds. A small raise can often work out in that way. I prefer to use my standard 3x steal and just open wider against the autofold crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
as far as leaks go, i think my play from the small blind is worse...Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Two sessions yesterday, both sucked. Lots of variance, and a little spew. I had QQ vs. AA on an AQ4 flop. I had two sets lose to the naked flush draws after we got it all in on the turn. Down 6.5 BI's. Last hand of the night, I've got A9s on the BTN and get min-3bet, so I call. Flop is T86 with one of my suit, so I cbet (call). Turn is 7 of my suit, so I shove over the donk bet that I think is pretty weak, figuring I've got outs and should have some FE. He insta-calls with T9o (no FD). So 8 outs to split and 12 outs to win. River's a blank.
Oh, well. I've got $200+ in rakeback arriving on Friday, and not much time to play in the next 3 days. My wife is going on a scrapbooking retreat, so I've got our 3 kids for the weekend. My folks are gonna come visit for a couple days, too, which is less like help than it sounds. All of which means I won't be playing tons of poker.
Bankroll is down to 2.6k (yikes!!). I've enjoyed playing 50nl getting ready for yesterday's sweat. I only lost $9 during the sweat session, my best run of poker all day by a long shot. I may play some more 50nl to get my head right, especially if I'm exhausted this weekend and not really on my A game.
If I have time later today, I'll post some HH's from yesterday's ass-whoopin', see if I was spewin'.
About that <3 betting $13 leak?
$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
3 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
BTN ($114.00)
Hero (SB) ($183.85)
BB ($200.00)
Pre-flop: ($1.50, 3 players) Hero is SB :qd: :th:
BTN calls $1, Hero calls $0.50, BB checks
Flop: :tc: :qh: :9c: ($3, 3 players)
Hero bets $3, BB folds, BTN calls $3
Turn: :ts: ($9, 2 players)
Hero bets $4, BTN calls $4
River: :2c: ($17, 2 players)
Hero bets $13, BTN goes all-in $106, Hero calls $93
Final Pot: $229
BTN shows: :ac: :7c:
Hero shows: :qd: :th:
Hero wins $228 ( won $114 )
It's a lucky number, how can that be a leak?
<--- was born on Friday the 13th, muahahahaha
I'm kind of surprised you didn't raise the button limp preflop there.
Guy's a total fish, like 72/2. I've been trying to get his stack for an hour. So there's meta. I was changing up here based on last coupla orbits.
I'm a noob at poker but I enjoy reading posts where players that outclass me by a mile still have ups and downs, how they deal with it is what makes them great players.
BTW, Robb...anyone who gets to live near Amicalola and Dahlonega is a winner already...:-)
JBird
Poker life is good. I've been taking some breaks due to work and family obligations. That always runs my game into the ground. I play fine as long as I can play 4 - 5 days per week. But my A game seems to dessert me if I play less than that. I had some negative variance at 100nl and dropped down to 50nl. I hadn't hit my stop-loss, but I wasn't playing enough so I decided to watch some vids, play lower stakes and work on some things I've learned about my game at 100nl in the past month or so.
1. TAGG-reg wars. Fnord really has a point. To date, my poker game has been a race to "TAGG perfection." I out-TAGG the TAGG-regs by reading the game better, staying out of trouble more often and extracting maximum value from each hand. But there's a limit. At 50nl, everyone's so TAGGy it's not really all that profitable to squeeze out tiny wins against the TAGG-clones.
2. Opening up. I was watching a Renton vid at Grinder School. He said something I found interesting. He said that pwn'ing TAGG's is pretty easy: open up a lot preflop, stay aggressive and refuse to pay them off when they hit. While still rolled for 100nl (barely), I dropped back to 25nl and worked on a 32/25 style with 10+ 3bets/squeezes. It's actually lots of fun.
3. My new LAGGy image. I can read the TAGGs' minds since I was the prototypical TAGG-clone for so long. I can see them steaming, waiting for a "picked spot" to play back. All the while, you're stealing pot after pot. I was up 6 BI at 50nl in 2k hands.
4. TAGG isn't horrible - it's got its place. I'm just happy to be doing something worthwhile with my poker time. I run a summer camp the last two weeks in June and teach an intensive summer course (48 contact hours in 8 days) in early July. So it's not the right time to try moving back up to 100nl. It is the right time to add some things to my game, and if I can win or break-even at lower stakes than my normal game, so much the better.
5. Bipolar poker. I've always wondered about this. Does anyone play two very different styles (statistically)? What if Hero played half the time as a 33/25 Lagg, 3betting 10%. Then the other half of the time Hero would play TAGG-nit: 16/12 with only 3% 3bet. Any read anyone had on Hero would be right only part of the time. The times he was playing TAGG-nit, he would get more action than he should from the HUD-bot multitabling regs. When he was playing LAGG, he would get more respect for each raise and bet and steal attempted. I thought of this a year ago, but I was playing 10nl and that was WAY too fancy for the nanostakes. With the multitabling monkey-reg donkfish so prevalent at 50nl and 100nl on Full Tilt, it might be a great way to "confuse" their HUD reads. And of course, Bipolar Hero would play exploitively whenever the situations arose regardless of the style currently being played.
I hope all is good with the rest of y'all. Happy Memorial Day. Good luck at the tables.
and ditto for 100 and 200nl Full Ring...Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
the bold is the bit i need to remind myself of often.. especially having loosened up - 16-13 in May!Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
The problem with this is that it's harder than expected to play two such different styles well due to the huge variation in post flop play requirementsQuote:
Originally Posted by Robb
You could also extend it further. One of my plans for 200nl = 25k hands 20bb hit and run 10-8-5 then start full-stacking 16-13-3 and wait for the respect to eventually disappear...
I really struggle with that opening up plan. I'd love to get better at it, but I dont seem to handle it. I really seem to struggle with working out exactly when is the right time to apply extra pressure and when is the right time to stop (i.e., refuse to pay them off). I dont know, maybe I should take your approach and spend some time at 10nl or 25nl working on it.
It's been a long journey for me. I was one of those 45/25 feesh when I first started playing - I loved to gambool it up. I started winning by learning poker discipline. My game hasn't changed much from the 16/12 10nl game I learned 1.5 years ago. Until late April, my style was still 16/12 together stealing liberally in LP from the TAGG-reg multitablers who don't defend. It's a rare 2k hands where I play 20% of my hands at 6max. Probably a heater.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
My progression went like this. First, I ditched a large percentage of small pp's from my UTG and MP ranges, and added 87s and A5s to my opening range from all positions. Second, I found that at 50nl+ they are giving you credit for a range, so 87s plays well from UTG on Axx and Kxx flops with maximum deception when you cbet the 356 FD flops. Third, I ditched even an even higher percentage of small pp's and started opening 76s - T9s and A2s - A5s in all positions. That happened about a week ago.
The experience I gained playing just a single sc and a single Axs hand UTG helped me when I opened up more. I'm still experimenting, but here's generally what I'm opening when I'm playing that 30/25 w/ 10% 3b style:
UTG: AQ+, 88+, AJs, KQs, T9s - 76s, A2s - A5s and 25% of small pp's
MP: Add AJ, ATs, KQ, all sc's 65s+ and 50% of small pp's.
CO: Add A9+, Axs, all pp's, any two suited cards T+, lots of 1-gap sc's, etc.
BTN: Anything I can get away with.
3bet (ip): QQ+, AK, Axs (except AQs - ATs) and sc's 65s - 98s
Squeeze: hands as weak as 86s +
Part of the lower stakes experiment was to learn about playing in 3bet pots - they squeeze and 3bet so much at 100nl that I needed tons of practice reading the ranges and reacting correctly. That's why the squeeze/3b range is so wide. I'll tighten that up when I move up where they can play with me postflop in big pots. You can still run over the TAGG-nit regs at 50nl with massive 3betting, tho, if you're willing to stack off a bit in the search for weakness and opportunities to steal it when you don't hit.
Quote:
5. Bipolar poker. I've always wondered about this. Does anyone play two very different styles (statistically)? What if Hero played half the time as a 33/25 Lagg, 3betting 10%. Then the other half of the time Hero would play TAGG-nit: 16/12 with only 3% 3bet. Any read anyone had on Hero would be right only part of the time. The times he was playing TAGG-nit, he would get more action than he should from the HUD-bot multitabling regs. When he was playing LAGG, he would get more respect for each raise and bet and steal attempted. I thought of this a year ago, but I was playing 10nl and that was WAY too fancy for the nanostakes. With the multitabling monkey-reg donkfish so prevalent at 50nl and 100nl on Full Tilt, it might be a great way to "confuse" their HUD reads. And of course, Bipolar Hero would play exploitively whenever the situations arose regardless of the style currently being played.
Usually there is 1 or more 55/5 player at the table and I try to isolate/get in a pot with him a lot. This also pumps your stats to higher then they actually are while playing against the reg you only play your normal range, while he might believe it's wider. This is only usefull when you havent played a lot with someone before.
In your example after a couple 100 hands they will view the average of your 2 playing styles, like 24/18/7. Just adjust to possibilities you have on your table (opponents) and be aware how (or even if) your actions influence your opponents. Edit: Oh and it's pretty difficult to keep track of who you played the loose style against and who you played the tight style against in the past session(s)
Right - and it's off for EVERY hand Hero plays. Hero will get a bit more respect when he's Lagging and bit more action when he's Tagging than he otherwise ought to.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPapi
While Tagging, Hero could open a couple more tables to help add to win rate in the thin value TAGG-reg wars. Overall, you'd play about the same number of hands.
Maybe Daven and I are talking about different things, because I don't see postflop implications as all that serious with the two styles I'm talking about. You put villain on a range and react appropriately. But the difference between ratholing and playing full stack poker would be much bigger. So I guess it depends.
Perhaps it could be interesting to explore. Off course it only affects regs, so the higher limits the better effect perhaps? It might be that against 1 guy you only play the tight sessions and against another you only play loose sessions by coincidance (sp?).
Yeah, I was thinking about it because I think the major reason I was successful playing 50nl w/ a 32/27 style is that the TAGG-regs were giving me tons of undeserved respect. I think it does require a reg-infested TAGG-dominated game, so 50nl and 100nl at FTP are perfect right now. I don't know anything about 200nl except that the best players don't seem (based on what I read on FTR) to rely overmuch on stats starting somewhere around 1/2 or 2/4 since everyone mixes up their play so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPapi
As a math geek, I like randomized plays which is why I don't just refuse to open 22 - 66 and instead just play a small percentage of them using a radom-choice method. Same for various other combos and situations.
The idea of "disguising" my true playing style by playing a combination of two styles came from reading Sauce's 6max guide which advocated heavy 3betting to confuse the regs whose HUD's (at the time) didn't show 3bet stats. The multitabling monkeys just autofolded most hands to a 3bet and they never got wise.
With PT3 and the new HEM, everyone has 3bet and 4bet stats, so a person would need something unique like Bipolar Poker to confuse the HUD-bot regs. I'm not saying it's the perfect idea, just that I'm thinking about how I could work with it.
I know this. I react differently preflop to someone with 3% 3bet stats vs. someone with 10%, and both are different than someone with 7%. It's positional, too, but most of the regs at 100nl seem to have plans for dealing with certain preflop lines based on HUD reads, and I think Bipolar Poker would cross them up enough that it would profitable.
The strategic question (which I don't know the answer to) is whether the combination of the two styles would be overall more profitable than simply playing the way you suggested initially - an open TAGG style with copious adjustments for all the various villains we face. Not sure on that one.
50/100/200 are my main games, though lately most of the first 2. But I have to agree with your statement here. My experience at 200 is too limited...Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Definitely, it's difficult to come up with something, but if you can come up with something it will be worth it. I think you might be onto something, but I doubt it's as easy adoptable as Sauce's idea back in the day. But it's sure worth thinking/discussing (about) it, as the reward will be big if we/you find somethingQuote:
The idea of "disguising" my true playing style by playing a combination of two styles came from reading Sauce's 6max guide which advocated heavy 3betting to confuse the regs whose HUD's (at the time) didn't show 3bet stats. The multitabling monkeys just autofolded most hands to a 3bet and they never got wise.
With PT3 and the new HEM, everyone has 3bet and 4bet stats, so a person would need something unique like Bipolar Poker to confuse the HUD-bot regs. I'm not saying it's the perfect idea, just that I'm thinking about how I could work with it.
For sure they react different, especially btn vs blind 3bet situations for example. You're right about reacting different towards a 3% 3better or a 10% 3 better, but there is also a difference between someone who 3bets from the blinds most of his 10% or someone who 3bets btn most of his 10% (to get 10% his mains 3betting position must be even higher). I think the easiest thing to exploide these players is to 4bet, especially since most players do not adjust they're stackoff range. Most of the time it's AA/KK/AK and sometimes QQ. but if someone 3bets >10% and stacks off that small of a range 4betting is extremely profitable, especially with blockers.Quote:
I know this. I react differently preflop to someone with 3% 3bet stats vs. someone with 10%, and both are different than someone with 7%. It's positional, too, but most of the regs at 100nl seem to have plans for dealing with certain preflop lines based on HUD reads, and I think Bipolar Poker would cross them up enough that it would profitable.
If you manage to get 3% & 10% and get an average of 7% this will help you not get 4bet probably, only this will probably only have any effect at 200nl+ since they're not 4bet bluffing a lot at lower limits. 3betting becomes much more standard at lower levels, so perhaps we can find something here?
Dont know either, but the main idea of finding something to exploit TAGGregs who hudbot their way through sessions is very interesting and we should look into it.Quote:
The strategic question (which I don't know the answer to) is whether the combination of the two styles would be overall more profitable than simply playing the way you suggested initially - an open TAGG style with copious adjustments for all the various villains we face. Not sure on that one.
My openning range is nearly identical until you get to the CO, then your range just explodes, so basically you're just abusing the hell out of position? Very wide 3-bet/squeeze range too, which is probably good. I keep trying to open mine up, but keep finding reasons not to when it comes to particular hands.
Yeah, I think I'm tightening up slightly, especially in the 3bet/squeeze categories, but yeah, I'm abusing position. I need to post some thoughts about the last couple weeks of discussion here, but I'm fried. Short story: I don't think (after my experimenting) that I can play 30/25 profitably. I do think I can play 25/20 profitably. And I'm understanding bet-sizing preflop better, understanding more about position and reading the game better postflop. But it's time for some sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
when i'm playing loose, my ranges and therefore post-flop hand values tend to be weakerQuote:
Originally Posted by Robb
when i'm playing tight, the opposite applies
you're right though, it shouldn't matter - it's just that after a long time playing nit-tight it's hard to get used to the idea that your hand has zero showdown value...
I've really learned a lot the last few weeks, starting with the discussion of opening for 3x on the btn. I have begun to understand position, ranges, and value at a deeper level. Here are some assorted thoughts:
1. I objected to opening for LESS on the button with the idea that we're in position and want to wager more. I see now why that was backwards. If we get more action on our smaller bets, we DO in fact get to wager more $$ since we see more flops. We also have more chances to play big pot pokerz ip.
2. I tried opening for 4x UTG and quit, not because I think it's bad, just because it's too much trouble. I think that one's closer to neutral than #1. I can also see an argument for open-raising 4x from the SB when stealing (and tightening up requirements a bit).
3. I've realized that when I play open A3s and catch a T73, I'm basically playing 5-out draw. It plays about like AQ or AK in the same spot which makes it an interesting hand to include in EP pfr range. I've also started making better decisions with Ace-baby since I began treating them as draws even when the baby pairs.
4. I've gained a ton of experience 3betting and squeezing at 25nl and 50nl, and that's helping me react to it when it happens to me. For example, both thought experiments and painful at-the-table experimenting have confirmed that 3betting/squeezing UTG TAGG-regs is a disaster waiting for a bankroll to gash. Less obviously, I'm learning the types of raisers who are good to squeeze, and what types of callers (mostly all of them) are good as well. I'm also learning to choose boards to barrel on successfully. There is limited benefits imo to 3betting resteals. It has its place, and I do it. But if I increase my 3betting then 100% of the additional spots need to be CO and BTN 3bets. Squeezing can be profitable oop, but I'm trying to limit that right now to higher equity hands.
5. I've learned to 3bet sc's and Axs light, and squeeze with them light, but I'm still having trouble knowing when (if ever) to flat 3bets when I open-raise them and get 3bet. They flop well, and Ax has blockers in villain's 3bet range, but I'm really struggling there.
6. ZOMFG watching mcat et. al. spank IOPQ in the 6max forum is major lulz!! "The worst played hand ever posted" is one gem. And I nearly fell out of my chair when the "you can't raise for value and then fold" bomb exploded. Laughs aside, my spewy-lagtard-D-minus game seems to be IOPQ's normal game. How he wins I'll never understand, probably. So I get the benefit of seeing spots that make me cringe 'cuz I'm perfectly capable during my worst poker moments of doing the exact same thing, but too embarrassed to post them.
7. I was stunned to see the "hey floating is grand" post (in the set-thread in the BC, I think). I think one of the biggest leaks in the TAGG-regs' game at 50nl and 100nl is the "autofloat." I think Full Tilt's software removes the fold button until the turn for some of these guys. Still, we have to cbet some, but I see at least one cbets > 80% at every table, so I can understand why floating has gotten so common. And floating's not bad. But the massive amounts of float/fold are huge opportunities if you're capable of putting people on ranges.
8. It's really helped me to consider two 2/3 psb's as the "price" for playing a big draw. Since everyone auto-floats, you have to fire a second barrel on the turn even when your draw misses. The great thing is that your fold equity is HUGE on the turn in a lot of spots. You just have to add in the extra street of betting into your initial estimate of implied odds.
more spam in your thread :)
i think that a 3.5x UTG standard open is good. The arguments for bigger pot with stronger range is effectively countered by the arguments against bigger pot when out of position. I also think that this variation has zero impact on number of players to the flop. The SB thing is good, especially tightening up steal stats - I attempt to steal from the SB too much against people who don't auto-fold. I think that ideal stats are button steal > cutoff steal >> sb steal. Mostly cos of the SB out of position thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
ties in with http://www.flopturnriver.com/blogs/w...-part-deux-433 a bunchQuote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I need to apply that better as well
higher equity hands or higher equity spots? I think spots= situation = opponent specific stuff is more important here, and a polarised range works best. Is it worth simply seeing a flop with high equity multi-way hands?Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
You've probably already identified the situations where c-betting a called 3-bet make sense, and those where i doesn't?
Mostly consider 3-bettor's style. Questions to think about include how much he 3-bets = what is his range = is it better to continue vs a strong range or a weak range? also, how transparent is he on the flop, plus is he a serial c-bet type, and does he c-bet pot or 1/2 pot in 3-bet pots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Obviously also think about 3-bet sizing, relative position, dead money in the pot.
As default I tend to fold these hands a lot out of position.
I think iopq's hands in the sh-forum are among the better learning threads there, for loads of reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Beginner circle regs who play 6-max should definitely read these. I also think IOPQ is going to be (already is?) a very strong player - I remember Fnord saying something about spew-ish spots being an integral part of the learning and improving process... so in theory i should have learnt and improved a lot by now ;)
as for how he wins? he;s a decent thinking player, and i'm guessing that most of the time he doesn't do stupid things!
agreed. Two things, in position i love c-betting low boards and then taking down the pot on a barrel when the board turns any broadway. Delayed c-betting is also a decent bluff line against floaty regs cos they don't perceive it as a c-betQuote:
Originally Posted by Robb
also, a while back i said i was going to write some sort of theory post. I'm working on that now, small blind play in FR - but i'm realising that most of it has 6-max application as well. It all started cos I decided that sb play was a huge leak for me, the 3-legged zebra discussion started out with me realising that my win-rate excluding blinds from sb and bb is > than from any other position... anyway, before that i had done a bunch of thinking about the sb, position, ranges, looking at sb stats from good players (including spoon) etc. It's coming together, i may flick it your way for some peer review before i put it out there to get torn apart by the masses! realising as i work on it how much all the poker concepts start to merge after a while - try writing about sb play without considering blind stealing, ranges, multi-way +ev vs HU +ev style hands, 3-betting, c-betting, position, orphan pots, opponent exploitation, board texture, etc...
Yeah, I've started cbetting boards that I usually wouldnt because I expect to get called a lot, but where a lot of turn cards will give me good double barrel spots.
and more...Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
I had a thought while reading this, changing your raise size like this might just keep your opponents from making mistakes. Suppose a player is not positionally aware but realizes that while you normally raise 3x or 3.5x this particular time you raised 4x. He can correctly assume that you have a stronger-than-normal raising hand. I give the edge to a 3.5x raise utg if only to make it blend in better for less aware and multitabling opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
I think if we open these hands and get 3bet, we're in position. If we're not, we're in the CO and the BU is either a) good enough to 3bet us light and we fold because it's a decent player and tighten our raising range from the CO on that table, or b) probably a range we don't want to play against HU OOP in a 3B pot.Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
If we're in position I think it comes down to odds and SPR. A standard 3bet from the blinds from a decent player will probably be too much to call with Axs unless we're really deep. A pot-sized one will probably be bad until we have reads. I like SCs better than Axs there.
I think I'm more on the IOPQ/spewy side of things than you guys, maybe we should run some sweats and post the interesting hands? As soon as the cashout I just got from cake clears I'll be moving some more of my roll onto FT. I'll hopefully grind out enough to play 100nl there by the middle of June.Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
While SSing, autofloaters have been giving me fits, but while playing full, It's just been higher variance. Delayed cbetting was working wonders for a few weeks but the regs on cake caught on and started auto-betting the turn (ugggh adjustments).Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
Too bad it's a few months late for Nutsinho's contest. I can't wait to see it myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
These two ideas are very solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
I love the auto-floaters because they are extremely exploitable simply by cbetting less on rough boards and against someone's who's floating 99.9999% of their hands. But these ideas are extremely good alternatives. AK is a great hand until it whiffs on a flop, and after that you need some options for staying in the hand without spewing.
SB play. That was another pickup from Spenda/Renton vids, the idea that you need to play very differently in SB vs. BB than in the reverse situation because of the postflop position problems. Sure, we're opening a healthy range trying to steal, but options for continuing with Q4o are pretty limited. I like Daven's thoughts on that. With this + BTN steals + general positional understanding, the micros aren't a great place to learn correct tactical poker. The play is so horrible postflop you don't really need to exploit positional advantages to their fullest. As tactical understanding deepens, it all leads back to the same basic places.
Squeezes + Equity. Daven, I get your point. I don't need to squeeze 15%+. Especially not without position. It may be a high equity spot with no hand strength. There's just no point in getting involved oop w/ J4s. I'm good at picking high equity spots, but I need to exercise some discipline and wait for some postflop playability to take my shots oop. With position, you have more leeway.
IOPQ. I envy that kids' postflop reads. I mean, he HAS to read the game really well as laggy as he is. In some ways, I think guys like him tend to do really well in poker. I imagine that nutsinho played what seemed to many like a "lagtard" style at 50nl. I'm guessing here, but his looseness probably led to a huge need for reads, ranges and abuse of position, all of which probably got him ready for the big leagues faster.
That said, when IOPQ gets a hand wrong, he gets it all wrong, which is why I learn so much from it. I play pretty agro, too, but not quite so much as him. I get in a marginal spot where the only hope is to bet my way out of trouble which then often leads to some horrible river decision where I'm crushed but justify a call 'cuz I'm "priced in."
The BC. I swear the Beginner's Circle can crush your soul. Every month there's a new batch of noobs, sounding off in complete ignorance. Just about the time a third of them learn some sense and the rest go away, it's wash rinse repeat. I just try to remember that was me not too long ago, and guys set me straight. So I try to help where I can. The thread that tilted me recently was the "MTT forum's not for microstakes players" blather. Wow. Complaining about getting into discussions with char, mcat, drmcboy and rilla. For a minute there, I thought about taking up MTT's so just I could join in. Seriously, WTFF??!!??!!
Daven, I like the ISF "no such thing as a made hand" link. I reread that about 6 weeks ago. Probably need to read it again.
Final thought. The only thing I've seen lately more horrible than my D-minus poker game spewing at 100nl was Man UTD vs. Barcelona today.
Arghhh You just destroyed my impression that you were a nit, playing sound poker with a reason for every play. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I know what you mean Robb, unfortunately it was all too recently me making those sort of posts , but at least I knew that I didn't really know that much with regards to cash games.Its interesting to me as well that I've gone full circle already , having tried your 5000 hand guide at 2nl /5nl and abandoning it as I never got to play a hand at those stakes (6 max) and cruising through 5NL as a LAGGY player , that Ive now gone 10k hands into 10NL and effectively hit the brick wall with limited success and some brilliant advice on my stats from Daven, coupled with excess work has led me to actually not play a hand (lack of time) since friday night) but to take time out and think about my game and the best way to improve it.The net result is that i'll be implementing a cross between your guide (now that I'm actually at the stakes you wrote it for ) and Rentons Guide and see how it goes for 5k hands before i have another review.Quote:
The BC. I swear the Beginner's Circle can crush your soul. Every month there's a new batch of noobs, sounding off in complete ignorance. Just about the time a third of them learn some sense and the rest go away, it's wash rinse repeat. I just try to remember that was me not too long ago, and guys set me straight. So I try to help where I can. The thread that tilted me recently was the "MTT forum's not for microstakes players" blather. Wow. Complaining about getting into discussions with char, mcat, drmcboy and rilla. For a minute there, I thought about taking up MTT's so just I could join in. Seriously, WTFF??!!??!!"
There's also another couple of noobs that are annoying me as well in the BC , but thats by the by as they probably annoy everyone else too but I find it ironic that one is posting about first hand in a freeroll currently , but has also given advice in the high stakes forum .
These OP threads are one of the most under utilised assets of FTR by most noobs, as just by picking some of the OPS of people who have gone through the stakes show that they were facing a lot of the same dilemma's and questions and how they answered them .
Spew happens and aggressive errors happen. Being capible of aggressive and passive errors balances your play and makes you less predictable. It also builds up a healthy disrespect for money.Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
I do my best not to be too rough on myself when I spew off a buy-in. Although at $1k each these days it stings a bit.
I do this at the same table all the time! I play different players very differently and will run vastly different ranges. Although sometimes I get carried away and make the wrong play against the wrong person. I do this even more in live poker than online, although I still need to fucking learn to behave from EP/MP when the fish enters the pot from UTG. I soooo just want to hammer away then opps I run into a hand...Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I think I've won a lot of stacks from HUD-bots with a small sample size that see me pound the shit out of a loose/passive folder, then felt something lukewarm against my out of line stats.
I think "changing gears" is applicable to "bipolar poker"
sit down and play 33/25 with 3b of 10% for 100 hands and then focus on stacking people for the rest of the session
but holy shit, Robb I envy you because your operation rapes the shit out of mine
can I get operation coaching? I pay in Starcraft lessons
[spam]
Dude... I have nothing substantive to add, nor am I likely to at the level you playing now. :shock: But wanted to at least say congrats!! And nice job!! I'm digesting your op a page at a time and find it just as helpful as ever.
[/spam]
Just lol'd at this in SH forum. Ben started the thread, then it kinda wandered off topic, the nuts went nuts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
People just can't get past thinking that making a big hand = big payoff.
Lots of guys at my stakes seem to get the game better than me. I have some strengths, but overall game understanding I think is behind some of the better 50nl and 100nl FTR regs. I basically have worked intensely on putting villains on ranges and reacting. I think other folks really do a much better job of manipulating opponents, maximizing their earn, balancing lines, etc. I think other folks think more about what line folks are taking on the NEXT street and how to play against those likely ranges. I think a lot about what just happened on THIS street and putting him on a more precise range. I think I see where the next step is - taking that information one more street into the future with options for different actions.
Also, watching Durrr on High Stakes poker is interesting. Guys like Doyle just don't know what to make of him. The modern theory of poker seems to be that it's all ranges and lines - the cards you hold are just the radomizer.
Robb, I can has your may graph?
It's pronounced garf yoo moran!
I'll post it later today, or first thing tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Jeez, played a real poker session last night for the first time in forever. 1.2k hands and +3BI at 50nl, which was 2.5 BI's below all-in EV. EZ game.
Sesh last night: 700 hands 50nl, down a BI. I was down 3 (and 2 BI's behind EV) early on, just couldn't catch a break on the river. Got a few to swing my way toward the end. Didn't play horrible, just didn't get much to work with.
I've got like 8 more days to grind for real before my poker hours will behave like this:
lim (x -> inf) of F(x) = 1/x
Fortunately, I'll have more time to play starting July 1st, though it will be sporadic. So I'm trying to enjoy my poker minutes until June 14.
you're switching to limit?? wat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
they'll go down.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
A 90 minute session this AM was nearly 4 BI positive at 50nl. I think another day or so at 50nl will complete the things I'm working on, and I may return to 100nl for the last 5 days prior to my pokerz going bye bye. Feel like I'm playing well and that I've added about 3% overall to my VP$P, mostly with bets and raises and improved preflop ranges. It puts me in some tough spots in 3b/4b pots postflop, but I've learned a ton about those situations and I'm a lot more comfortable there than my opponents, I think. I wonder how the new slightly laggier style will play at 100nl? Should be a fun experiment.
I like Rage's Multitabling Scripts. I instantly added two tables without any loss of time to think, which will help the hourly at whatever level I'm playing.
Anyone who hasn't tried Rage's scripts and plays at least 5 tables should try it for about an hour, imo. It's an extremely efficient way of managing tables that allows tables to be moved into one of three special viewing areas with single button-press. When done, mouse hover over and ship it back. Once you're used to how it works, it's awesome.
Is that for 6max? Just wondering, I wudnt play more than 4 tbls myself.
getting pretty close to zero....Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
wonder if it's asymptotic or something
Not sure what you're asking. The scripts are for tables: FR/6m/tourneys or whatever. I think it would certainly be much more useful for the FR grinders. You could pretty easily play 16 tables of FR on a small screen with this setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da GOAT
I have a smallish screen, so tables overlap when they're big enough to work with my HUD, and I use it to move tables around so I can follow the important action on at least 3 tables at once.
At 100nl, I play a max of 5 tables and usually 4. At 50nl where I have pretty long history with most of the regs, I play 6. With Rage's scripts, I can play 8 50nl 6m tables np, and probably 9 or 10 when I get it all sorted.
It's a cool deal. The efficiency comes in several ways:
1. The stacked tables mean all the buttons are in the exact same place. So you hover over the "fold" button and just click away your trash hands without having to move the mouse around the screen.
2. When a hand pops up you want to play, you hit "space" and the table moves into a free slot (there are 3) where you can follow it. HEM works well, so you HUD stats shift, too - takes less than a second for HUD stats to reappear.
3. When you're done watching a table and playing the hand, hitting space again "tucks" the table away in the main stack under the active ones.
So while you're playing more hands, you're still following the entire action on several hands at once, and I've modified Rage's version so I can type notes. I'm playing my same game with more tables, just gaining efficiency in terms of clicking on sh!t and seeing tables where action matters.
OK, I don't usually whine too much about getting rivered, but this was pretty sick.
First hand, I have AdJd and hit Js9d4d for TP + FD. It takes a little dancing, but we get it all-in the flop (he has 99). While that's going on, I flopped a straight w/ AQ, we click-click-click it all-in pretty fast (this guy has JJ). Turn's a diamond (AJs hand), so I'm all-in with like 80% equity now on two hands. Glance up, 9 on the river to beat my straight, glance down, J on the river to beat my flush. Hands finish within 2 seconds of each, with no action on other tables in between. Double dose of quads on the river - seriously sick.
Admittedly, I wasn't really ahead on the AJ hand on the flop, so getting rivered there wasn't a bad beat. But double-quad-rivers were something I had never seen before. Pretty cool. Be a bit cooler next time if I'm the one with the quads :P
Oh, yeah, up like $250 today (even after the quad-busting), playing a mix of 50nl and 100nl. Got to play like 4 hours 'cuz my parents went home early.
I think double quads at the same time is worthy of a short whine ;)
Sounds like another day in the life. GJ not tilting off some moniez after the beats.
Weird thing, I was closing down tables to quit (so I don't know if I would have tilted), so the double-quads were 2 of my last five hands. It's just pokerz, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by dev
I got in another sesh this morning, all 100nl, up another 2.5 BI. Feel like I'm playing well.
Several good sessions today, up $80 which was about $200 below expectation. I was up about $500 and hit some variance, plus I got tired so maybe a BI of spew in there.
I tried to use Rage's scripts but AHK doesnt seem to work to well on windows 7. Thats too bad being I really wanted to use it. By the way your quads hands was gross. ++GJ for not freaking out. I still get pissed at +EV cooler spots. They should make a clear eyes for personality aggro people.
hope all is going good robb. i'm enjoying the quality links youve posted :) many thanks
np, i'm glad people (besides me) get something out of them!!Quote:
Originally Posted by AFchung
@pokerz - internet was off all night last night, so I didn't get to put in a session :evil:
Lookin' forward to tonight.
Ever feel like you can't win a race? And this is after being UP $100 last sesh in all-in EV.
http://xs140.xs.to/xs140/09245/allinev655.jpg
Time for a couple confessions.
1. I've been playing FR.
2. I've been mass multitabling.
3. I can't beat 100nl FR without dropping a bunch of tables
So while I hope none of the noobies read this and think ZOMFG I should play more tables and autopilot, my journey in June was try some different stuff. The LAGG experiment at 25nl and 50nl 6m. Different opening ranges in EP. Different bet amounts otb, etc.
What I've found is that I can autopilot 50nl FR. I'm 7+ ptBB/100 over my first 20k hands there. There's like twice as many 50nl tables as 100nl, so I can table select better, and the regs just can't play poker. They're anti-gamblers, waiting on the nuts.
That's important because, for those who've followed this op a while, I'm planning to start taking serious income expectations to my pokerz starting in July. I'd like to be withdrawing at least $500 / month, and I'm trying to find what games and styles will earn the maximum in the least amount of time.
50nl FR 14+ tables gets me about 1k hands in 75 minutes, about typical for a week night session. That also earns me enough FTPs that 20 sessions on different days would qualify me for the top Iron Man level which, after a year or so, is worth >$100 / month.
My plan for July (and whatever time I can squeeze in for pokerz in the next crazy 3 weeks) is to try log 20 sessions of 50nl FR each month to insure Iron Man qualification and bankroll building of about $1k plus rakeback. Any additional time I have for poker will be spent trying to learn more at 100nl 6m so that when I have the bankroll, I can take a shot at 200nl 6m.
I don't feel all that guilty for playing too many tables or switching back to FR part time. The thing that makes me feel bad is that I can't beat 100nl any more!! Oh, well, I'm playing stressed-out, distracted poker, not my A game. Maybe after life settles down a bit, I'll be back to winning at 100nl.
My goals for the rest of 2009:
1. Withdraw at least $500 / month for the next 6 months.
2. Earn enough beyond that for a decently-rolled shot at 200nl in December.
3. Use 92k FTPs to buy a 24" monitor from the FT store (I'm at ~65k) so I can fit 4 tables in default size on the same screen which will help me not go blind trying to read my HUD which probably displays too many stats I never look at but like wtf are you gonna use all those FTPs for anyway when you own all the books they sell and the Harley costs like 4 gazillion points.
Fuck a Hardly. GLw/your goals. Awesome progress over the past few months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
GoGoGo!
OK, while I'm running 8 ptBB/100, I shouldn't complain, but I am getting seriously sick of losing every race whether I'm KK < JJ or AK < AJ. Just wondering what the win rate would be if I won my share of all-ins.
K thx bye.
you're probably also hitting every single draw on the turn/flopping sets every time you call a raise/etc., but since you don't have any program that measures your draw luck you keep bitching about whatever you CAN measure, amiriteQuote:
Originally Posted by Robb
also: sell points on 2p2
The more I think about All-in EV the more I realize how useless it is. If we were to measure luck as a whole and then figure out how much of it comes down to AIEV, we'd come up with less than 10%. HEM doesn't even measure the money put in on streets before we shove afaik.
I remember I read your posts thinking "what- why in hell does this guy play 10NL!!" I did not say anything because I did not want you to start playing beyond your bankroll.
Great posts, great accomplishments- all my kudos to you. Your journey through the stakes is very similar to mine- up, up and up! The confidence you have amassed shines through in your posts and that is excellent!
Keep it you cocky bastard :)
noQuote:
Originally Posted by iopq
True, I get that part, and I'm winning like $150 in a session, but still have lost 4 out of 5 all-in coin flips.Quote:
Originally Posted by dev
And I also understand IOPQ's point about how it's easy to focus on 1 part of poker luck / variance and disregard every other facet. I've played 20k hands at an 8 ptbb/100 win rate at 50nl FR. They suck. They're weak tight, and the furnace of 100nl has my game pretty well used to thin value for big money. They're nut-camping nits. They hate getting squeezed. At 100nl, some squeezes like every other orbit. They don't 3bet much.
So I really have no clue even after 20k hands how much is luck, how much is the fact that they don't have reads, how much is the fact they're TAGG-nits while I'm TAGG-super-agro, and how much is the fact that they just suck.
I'm just happy to be winning big right now: positive variance, them sucking or whatever it is.
nice goals.
woot! but you missed out one part of the confession, but your secret is safe (i won't post any hand histories ;) )Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
every 100nl reg watches CR vids, reads/posts 2+2, etc. There are a bunch of 100nl pros, etc. 50nl is full of people who can't make it to 100nl.... it's probably the biggest jump i've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
it's $100 bonus for each month (awarded 6-monthly), plus about $75 in medals that can buy bonuses, plus FPPs trade at about $3/1000 in 2+2 marketplace, plus the monthly ironman freeroll is about $90 in overlay per player...Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Well, my 2 week poker hiatus is over - I think I'll play tonight for an hour or two. The last two weeks, I played 3 short sessions totaling just over 1k hands, and I was up about $40. I think I'm up about 1k for the month, but I haven't looked in a while.
I've still got a crazy schedule for the next month, then I can settle back into grinding. But at least for the next 4 weeks, I'll have some time to play and stay active on FTR.
My Summer Honors camp was a big success, now my fourth year as director. We had 42 teenagers join us for academics every morning and climbing at the ropes course in the afternoon where they competed in scored leadership events. We even took a rock climbing and rappelling trip. It's a residential camp, so we had special events in the evenings like a hypnosis show and an etiquette dinner. An intense but enjoyable 12 days.
The 8 college kids who worked the camp and I went out for beers after the Awards Banquet Friday night, and we had short bit of R&R before heading to sleep off 12 days of sleep-deprivation, sunburn, dehydration and the other results of going full-bore wide-open crazy-hard at fun in 95+ degree (F) heat for two weeks.
I've got some fun pics I'll post later. We always have mostly female campers, so 6 of my employees were college girls, most of them attractive and fit since we all have to be capable rock climbers, belayers and spotters. It's a real tough job, but someone's gotta do it, amiright?
Starting Monday, I teach a class that will have 48 contact hours in the next 8 school days, and the following week take two trips: first to DC to work with the National Science Foundation, and then a trip to Austin, TX, for a math conference. I won't play a ton of poker, but at least I'll get some hands in.
Hope y'all didn't let Spoony do anything foolish while I was away :wink:
so, this got me to thinking...Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I have a math degree gathering dust somewhere
I've done some climbing
I'm sure my girlfriend is the understanding type
New Zealand is kinda exotic
I'm guessing you could do with some volunteer assistance....
As soon as we get the funding, we'll do Summer Honors New Zealand and put you in charge of all hiring, training and performance evaluations of the female staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
robb
i demand june graphs :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFchung
Uh, June ain't over, yet, guys. I'll post tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Garph for the month which doesn't include about $370 in rakeback, mostly from the last part of May and first week of June when I was playing a ton of hands. Haven't played seriously June 12th. Haven't calculated to the penny, but it appears I'm $5 - $10 shy of a 1k month (if you include rb). Still have ~ 5 hours to fix that, or totally f**k it up. :P
http://xs140.xs.to/xs140/09272/may09garph584.jpg
Positive variance fairy waved her magic wand over my 800 hands tonight, and I won 2.5 BI's at 50nl. So I'm up a bit more than 1.1k for the month if you count rb.
I've been updating records from the last 2 years of poker. I have incurred $775 in expenses, about $350 in initial deposits and the rest in software, money transfer charges and poker books. I've withdrawn and spent $1,825. And I have $2,650 in bankroll.
Total poker profits lifetime appear to be ~ $,3700.
It's interesting to watch Ben talk about his plans for withdrawing. I think he has a great plan. Mine's very different, but we each at least understand ourselves, what motivates us and what will keep us working hard at improving.
My goal is to develop a record of withdrawals in the next 6 months that sets some precedent for poker profits. I'd like to make a significant purchase (something with wheels + motor) with poker bucks. I hope to take my shot at 200nl by year's end, but I'm more interested in making several $500 withdrawals to prove to my wife I'm capable of making payments.
I think some of the others around here like Ben are well ahead of me in terms of understanding the game, but I feel like I'm really advancing a lot right now. So chillin' out at 50nl and 100nl is fine for the time being, as long as I'm profiting.
Just to show how little I played in 2nd half of June, I just got a week's rakeback (June 16 - 23) for a bankroll boosting $1.34. Woot!
I've been winning at 50nl, but my layoff (and the experimenting in May/June at various games/levels) seems to have sent my 100nl 6m game into the crapper. I'll be posting a lot of HH's in the next few days to see if I can sort some things out.
I know someone will comment on the less than full stack. I've been buying in for 80BB - if I win I stay at the table. Helps me early in sessions. When I see a juicy table, I chip up.
Hand 1: Villain is 25/18/2.2 over 77 hands with 100% cbet. I haven't played any interesting hands against him.
$0.5/$1 Deep No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($103.00)
UTG+1 ($191.05)
Hero (CO) ($108.70)
BTN ($378.50)
SB ($96.15)
BB ($204.10)
Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is CO :as: :qd:
UTG raises to $3.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50, 3 folds
Flop: :2s: :th: :td: ($8.50, 2 players)
UTG bets $6, Hero calls $6
Turn: :qs: ($20.50, 2 players)
UTG bets $15, Hero raises to $40, UTG goes all-in $93.50, $53.50 to Hero ($59.20)??
Hand 2: New to table w/ no regs, no more than 3 HH's on anyone.
$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($80.00)
UTG+1 ($100.60)
CO ($84.90)
BTN ($100.00)
SB ($100.00)
BB ($105.50)
Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is UTG :9c: :tc:
Hero raises to $3.50, UTG+1 calls $3.50, CO calls $3.50, 2 folds, BB calls $2.50
Flop: :7h: :3c: :2h: ($14.50, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks
Turn: :ac: ($14.50, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, UTG+1 calls $10, CO calls $10, BB calls $10
River: :kc: ($54.50, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $36, 1 fold, CO goes all-in $71.40, BB folds, Hero goes all-in $30.50
Final Pot: $187.50
Hero shows: :9c: :tc:
CO shows: :jc: :7c:
Hand 3: This is one of those 3b spots that I get lost on. BB is 24/16/2.5 reg (255 hands) with 10% 3b from BB, 6% 3b over all. His squeeze is 11%. So I think he's light here a lot. Advice preflop and then flop, please.
$0.5/$1 Deep No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($80.00)
UTG+1 ($369.00)
CO ($105.65)
BTN ($202.60)
SB ($203.50)
BB ($191.05)
Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is UTG :9d: :9c:
Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, CO calls $3.50, 2 folds, BB raises to $16.50, Hero calls $13, CO folds
Flop: :8s: :4c: :4h: ($37, 2 players)
BB bets $25, $25 to Hero ($63.50)??
One of the reasons I suck at poker is because I refuse to take good advice. Every poker mistake that exists - I'm determined to try it out myself just to verify that, in fact, it's a mistake.
The latest installment of said poker idiocy was mixing both FR and 6m in the same session. I had heard it was a bad idea, but of course I couldn't just let it be a theoretical bad idea - I had to prove it was a bad idea for me.
My problem is this:
1. I like 6m better than FR.
2. I've learned more about poker playing 6m.
Which doesn't sound like a problem except that:
3. I make more money playing FR.
Right now, on FTP, the .25/.50 FR tables are big time soft, and I can multitable my way to a nice hourly rate and earn some good rb and bonuses. It's fits easily into the time I have to play and should generate about $1k per month in profit. But it's work, not fun, 'cuz I'd rather be playing 6m.
So I put in 1k hands Saturday, then switched to 6m, and just got crushed. Then, when I went back to FR, I got crushed there. Just to review my spew-fest, I played 6m too weak-tight because of FR, and then I played FR too laggy 'cuz of 6m. So...$400 in the red later, I readjusted my FR game and played break-even for a short session, then won 3 BI's in an hour-long session today.
So I have my FR grind back in sync, and making money is certainly more fun than losing it. But I need to find some way to both generate the monthly profit I would like and leave myself serious chunks of time each month to work on my 6m game.
Perhaps the following plan is better: grind FR for the first three weeks of every month, then play 6m for about 10 days. That would allow me about 9-10 days of 6m each month while still generating a good income from poker. (I need the hands from FR to maintain iron man status and keep earning those bonuses.)
Robb I made $1500 in 6m last month, and $3000 two months ago
obviously, you can 5-6 table 6m like me and make profits and learn pokers
why would you want $1000 in FR when you can make say $750 in 6m and get better at pokers (saving yourself $200/hr in coaching, lol)
Its an ongoing decision as we move up. Money or education. It all sounds well and good to focus on improving all the time, but either we get a taste of the returns and want more, or we just get tired of always focusing on learning and just want to win some $s. Finding some balance is probably important (ideally we'd love to win nice $s as we learn, but we cant always rely on that). Your plan sounds pretty decent, try it for a few months and see how it goes.
Btw, fold 99 to the 3bet. Even with position you cant continue profitably there. Hand 1 just flat turn and river if you want to continue. 9Ts is a shitty spot after getting 2 callers on the turn. We lose value if we c/c I think, but if we get raised we're almost certainly beat. I might bet more like $20 to get called by worse and fold to a shove.
Yeah, I got better at pokers for 8 months playing mostly 6m, but at some point I'd like to make steady withdrawals. My goals for the year were to take a shot at 200nl by the end of the year, and I can still do that and withdraw $2k - $3k over the next 6 months at my current win rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I guess I don't see why I can't manage both - when I have time to devote a couple weeks to poker, work on my 6m. When I just have 45 minutes a day a few days per week, play 50nl FR and profit. Part of winning monies at poker is putting in hands at games we can crush.
Life should settle down in the Fall - it always seems that Oct-Jan are my best months for progressing at poker. The rest of year is a struggle to keep my head above water with work, family and other obligations. So I'll kind of focus on FR until I have more time. I'll just build the roll, withdraw my targets, and generally profit, working on 6m as I have time.
Couple sessions of 50nl FR, 2.2k hands, up 7 BI. I was running like a god even though I stacked off to quads 3 times. Some of my losses from the weekend were negative variance (though not all), so I guess I'm about even.
I'm also mixing FR and 6-max. Definitely takes discipline to switch, and i won't play both simultaneously. At least an hour break in between... TAG ranges are so different. It can be done, but it took me a while to get it sorted. Reading Jyms' why post is useful for this. Your idea sounds good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
also, you may be interested:
For low volume (<50k hands a month) low stakes ($100nl and less) grinders, FT ironman is great EV.
After 19 months:
* every month iron man equates to about $120 in medals
* every month iron man equates to likely 6-monthly $100 extra bonus
* add this to 27% rakeback if you're playing low volumes and it pumps it up heaps, but... diminishing returns as volume increases.
at a point it makes sense to play other sites as well - my plan once back in NZ involves maintaining supernova on stars/ironman on FT and Palladium on party. Most of my play will go where the best value lies that month, if similar i'll go to the best tables.
Fwiw, Ft ironman top status is easily achievable 4tabling 100nl 6m
I've noticed what may be my biggest 100nl leak. It seems that I tend to disrespect pretty much all villains I play until proven otherwise. I noticed this example in the BC yesterday and today:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...nl-t86954.html
Dozer and Spoon say fold, I'm like wtf? The board isn't that drawy, and villain's a 20/5/2.8 feesh. So he c/r'd. If he's not solid, the c/r could mean a lot of things south of the nuts. Hero has AA and board is like JT27, with the turn making a FD.
Whatever you think of the specific hand, what I'm realizing is that I tend to analyze opponents as though they're quite capable of big, stupid mistakes, and I include a fairly large amount of "junk" in my estimates of their ranges.
I think that's valid for a lot of 25nl and 50nl villains (and below), but what I am beginning to realize about 100nl (both FR and 6m) is that they do actually put people on ranges and are reasonably good at it.
I watch guys like griffey and daven commenting on BJ's op HH's and saying things like "how often do you show up with TP here?" I'm generally thinking "who cares?" because I don't tend to believe villains are capable of analyzing at that level.
But I think it's holding me back in terms of poker development. I don't have any plans to start respecting 25nl villains, lulz, but I think I'm going to have to start doing a better job of leveling the 100nl TAGG-regs and realizing they DO put people on ranges. I've got to play my range effectively, and merge ranges better. I've got to back off my aggression when my range is weak and ratchet it up when my range is strong (regardless of whether I have the goods or not).
I think this will help a lot.
Another question I have going forward is whether I play too TAGGy. Each at new level higher, the TAGG's get looser. My 19/16 6m style is a bit nitty at 100nl and seems more than a bit nitty compared to some 200nl players I'm familiar with. But whenever I try to open up my game, I lose.
So why not nit it up? I think I have a lot of room for improvement playing the hands I do open for a solid win rate without adding much right now. So I'm done with the "loosening up" experiments right now and focused on solid pokerz. I'm trying to maximize the number of "spots" I can pick to attack looser/laggier players, so my game will open up as the games I play in loosen up. But I'm no longer looking to add any VPiP to my playing total.
Just dont overadjust and start giving unknowns (even reggy ones) credit for thinking too well either.
I'm still running about 21/17 and beating 100nl healthily. No need to open up too much. If its not broken, dont fix it ;). I spoke to Griffey about openning up my range and wanting to become more of a lag, and he basically asked why the hell I'd want to do that when I can just play strong ranges against those people? Good question.