Just to exclude the obvious, you aren't putting on your shoes or picking up your keys or anything similar in this scenario? How punctual are your walks?
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Just to exclude the obvious, you aren't putting on your shoes or picking up your keys or anything similar in this scenario? How punctual are your walks?
Yeah I briefly read an article to see what the experts say and it's really not as simple as putting a number on it. There's more to hearing than simple sound. Like you say, frequency is important. Also volume, distance, other sensory distractions, breed of dog... there are a lot of factors. It's just in my experience, dogs have always had ridiculously good hearing, far superior to mine. They'll hear the postman open the gate, car doors closing, dog food tins being opened, things that I would never hear or at least recognise as distinct sounds. I mean, I'd probably hear a car door being slammed shut, but I wouldn't know the difference between my housemate and the neighbour doing it for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Probably a single molecule could, but enough for the dog to pick up on? That's a ridiculously difficult thing to demonstrate.Quote:
I guess the other question is whether a coat molecule could travel 40 ft around corners in ~ 10 sec. Seems a bit much.
Also if a dog can hear things at x4 the distance, based on the inverse square law that would be 16x better hearing.
Nope. I'm sitting at the kitchen table on the computer, finish whatever I'm doing, then grab my coat off the seat next to me and put it on. 10sec later he's running down the stairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Not enough to set your watch to.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Yeah, it's not really enough to know they can hear things I can't. It's a question of how much and how far and all that shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
That would be so cool. Isn't their sensitivity in parts/billion or something ridiculous like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
Reasonable idea. But, what if he's not just smelling the coat, but smelling me moving around at the same time, or smelling some change in my blood pressure or some other ninja dog scent thing.
How about I record the sound I make next time, then the next day play it back and see if he comes. That would work I think.
I just shook the coat and he came. It did make some sound though.
https://i.imgflip.com/3w0ghk.jpg
Another cool thing about this is he only cares if it's the coat I wear to the park that I put on. If I put on my other coat, nothing.
So either he can tell them apart by sound, or by smell.
Dogs are awesome.
Dogs are definitely awesome.
I'm still thinking sound, but shaking the coat and getting his attention is interesting. I would say it's a certainty that different coats have different sounds, in the same way different car doors do. But shaking the coat is, well, not the usual "walkies" sound. It's going to make a different sound to when you put it on normally. Having said that, it will still have a distinct pitch, a "that coat" sound. Just picking it up might be enough, what you do after is irrelevant.
Recording the sound is definitely one potential experiment, but how certain are we that the recording is a true copy of the sound? We might not be able to tell the difference but the dog might, certain pitches might record better than others. The compression of the file might change the sound sufficiently for the dog to not recognise it.
It could be smell. It just seems so unlikely compared to sound.
Ok here's an experiment you can do. Point a fan at you so the wind is blowing in the opposite direction to where the dog is. The noise of the fan might be a problem, interfering with the sound, but what it will do is ensure that molecules released from the coat are going in the wrong direction for the dog to smell it.
If the fan is too noisy, I guess we'll have to get technical. Close all the windows and turn the heat up in the house. This will increase pressure relative to the outside. Now sit by a window, open it, and quickly put the coat on. The pressure differential will cause the molecules to move towards the window, leaving just the sound, with no fan to interfere.
I'm genuinely curious. I'll be really surprised if it's smell.
41 gun salute in Plymouth today to honour the Duke.
Macron has phoned Boris to surrender.
41 gun salute? Is that a thing? I've heard of a 21 gun salute (which is really a 7 gun salute 3 times), but I do not know the symbolic meaning of 21, so ... sure why not 41? But do all 41 guns fire at once, then? (41 is a prime number)
I've no idea. So I just checked.
Seems like bullshit tradition. Basically it's your 21 gun salute with an extra 20 if it's fired from a "Royal Park", such as Hyde Park, but if Hyde Park do 41, it seems they'll all do 41, even the ships at sea. There's 62 if it's from the Tower of London. The (probable) record for most rounds fired in a single salute turns out to have been (get this) when Prince Phillip's birthday coincided with the Saturday designated as the Queen's official birthday. They both got 62 each, so it was a 124 gun salute.
Not sure why the old bastard gets a 62 gun salute for his birthday but only a 41 gun salute for his death, but it seems that was indeed the case.
Makes me think somewhere in history, someone's gun jammed and so there was 1 fewer shot in the salute, and yada yada yada.
Something trivial that was just a meme, but eventually no one remembered that the meme wasn't funny anymore, and now it's this permanent part of culture.
This freaked out a load of people in Poland. People didn't open their windows for two days because they were worried it would crawl into their house. Eventually they called the police.
https://scontent.flhr3-4.fna.fbcdn.n...83&oe=609EDD52
Nobody going to try to guess what it is?
A giant caterpillar?
Nope. It's a croissant.
I'm pretty sure caterpillars can't get that big, due to the strength of chitin (their exoskeleton) and their internal pressure.
Basically, you can show that giant insects are at least one horrifying science fiction future that cannot happen (given the properties of exoskeletons). If you look at the equations of stress in the walls of a pressurized cylinder, and you inject the physical properties of exoskeleton, you can show there's an upper bound on the volume it can contain at a given pressure.
The internal pressure stays roughly the same as an insect grows, but the surface area increases, so the total force increases. This means the exoskeleton has to be thicker to provide the strength to oppose that force. There's a limit where the thickness of the exoskeleton needs to be more than 1 radius thick to sustain the internal pressure - meaning that there's no room left for innards to make pressure.
Fun story: I know this because I was learning about hoop stress in college. A couple of us mechanical engineers were working on homework, and had the equation up on a white board while we were working on it. Then a Biomedical engineering student comes in and asks us why we have the caterpillar equation on the board. After some discussion, we confirmed that a caterpillar is roughly a cyllindrical pressure vessal, and the equation (or something quite similar - a caterpillar isn't a perfect cylinder) applies.
Yeah it looks bigger than this prehistoric dragonfly thing.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...s-for_W640.jpg
But if I saw this in my tree I would definitely call the cops. Or the SWAT team.
The world's strongest man is vegan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZIbWtCYxU
This will melt your brain.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1388136378672861184
Cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Where is this fucking snake?
https://twitter.com/waitbutwhy/statu...88352857804804
Convo on twitter...
How can I acquired this safeMoon coin without buying? Cus I have no money to buy it
Beg on twitter by posting your wallet address, make sure you add the #safemoon hashtag, throw in #safemoonarmy too, then spend the day refreshing your wallet balance while being sad.
0xecc6541FC7054501520085751aE83DF4365DDbC2 please ooooo
Check your wallet.
I have done that
Did it make you sad?
Took me a bit, but it's in the dead center of the pic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
It curves like an S-shape back and forth.
Look for the dark chevrons.
Well done. I took a look but quickly dismissed it as trolling. With your effort I just double checked and I do see it.
I looked at it for ages and never saw it until someone zoomed in on the bit with the snake in it.
Love this channel. Sincerely hoping this guy doesn't blow himself up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuW_VbKdvMI
NileRed is one of the science YouTube channels I follow, even though I tend to not be a fan of the work of chemistry, I do find it entertaining when someone else is going to the effort of doing all the work.
Of all the science YouTubers who I'd put on a list of "I wouldn't be at all surprised if this person gets seriously injured out of a reckless disregard for safety." I wouldn't put Nigel on the list.
This guy, on the other hand...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2a..._dlSxCw/videos
is using a 3d printer to print solid fuel rocket motors out of the printing plastic, and then testing them indoors with no breathing gear or any nod to increasing the ventilation. Often with his (presumably younger) sister in the room.
I had to stop watching Cody's Lab years ago because I was simply too cringed out over his sense of safety. I just found the Integza channel, and it looks like he's listening to his fans tell him how to be safer and is slowly getting better. If that keeps up, I'll keep watching his vids.
Yeah he seems fairly safety conscious. Still, I saw him sniffing arsenic vapor to see if it really smelled like almonds and I was a bit like "well, I don't care how safe you make it, I wouldn't be doing that."
That Russian guy (forget his name) was famous for almost blowing himself up in every video.
Accidentally bought some white chocolate today. I don't know how anyone can eat that shit, it's practically 99% sugar.
... and 0% cocoa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
It's basically just the fat separated from the cocoa mixed with a load of sugar.
I generally don't favor it, either, but I had some white chocolate with coconut that was actually good. It was super-sweet, though.
I watch nilered and like his channel, but he definitely comes across as a teacher's pet kind of guy. The way he describes his experiments probably gives his former chemistry teacher a raging hardon. He's very thorough.
White chocolate is awesome. Freak.
Cody is great. He's not that reckless. Maybe he's improved his safety since you abandoned him.Quote:
I had to stop watching Cody's Lab years ago because I was simply too cringed out over his sense of safety
Alright. I'll look into his channel again.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Is he still wearing chain mail as a weight loss program? lol.
I saw that one, made me chuckle too.
I like Cody partly for the lab, but also because he grows cool things. Haven't actually watched him for a while but he's definitely someone I enjoy watching. He's just such a nice guy really, geeky as hell, a bit funny with a dose of cringe, and doing cool things.
Does anyone here have tinnitus?
I do. I've been messing around with a tone generator to explore whether the tone I hear is always constant or if it varies.
What I've found is that the tone is ~8,700 Hz, and if I play a pure tone at that frequency, then stop it, my own tinnitus stops for about 5 seconds.
Just wondering if anyone here is familiar with anything like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
You're probably saturating your auditory cortex with the tone. Just like if you eat some white chocolate the next thing you eat won't taste as sweet because the neurons' response habituates to a stimulus.
I sometimes experience tinnitus that is in time with my heartbeat, and is like a white noise like TV static rather than a ringing (though I've experienced a few seconds of that at a time before as well). My best guess is it is the nerves in my face/jaw causing interference with my auditory nerve, as the sound changes if I move my jaw.
Instructions unclear.
All sound is muffled, and the white chocolate keeps melting down the side of my face.
:D
I've discovered I have a white noise tinnitus hiding behind the constant tone, which I only discovered by getting the constant tone to stop for a few seconds.
Not sure if there's anything to do for this.
I only even notice it when everything is otherwise silent, so it's not like it's a problem for me. More just a curiosity.
I thought you said your tinnitus stops for 5sec if you play a tone at the same frequency - that's what i was referring to.
Yeah, I think it's pretty common really. Ringing and/or white noise. I think if it's not bothering you you could bring it up next trip to the doctor's, but no need to rush to the ER or anything.
I sometimes "hear" a subtle high pitched noise, like a tv is on with no signal, with black screen. Not like white noise static though, it's like a high pitched sine wave. It usually only lasts a few seconds and it's rare. I ignore it, it's not a problem for me.
I had something that I feel the "white noise" you guys are describing matches with. It wasn't really a tone, more a deep rushing water sort of sound. It bugged me at first, but then I thought of the short lived high pitched tinnitus that I've experienced and how that's constant for some people-- then I just noticed the sensation, but it didn't bother me.
I've actually discovered that if I can mute the 8700 Hz in my head for a second, I hear another, higher pitch above it.
It is a major third up.
I'm pretty glad I don't have perfect pitch, 'cause I bet that would really mess with me. As it is, I just tune it out most of the time.
Could be a blocked eustachian tube. Equalizing pressure often helps it clear up faster. I get that quite a lot and it's super annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by boost
In 4 days, my university will be awarding a degree to an 84 year old.
He first attended Wash U in the 1940's. He dropped out to join the military during WWII with only 9 credits remaining to graduate.
He lived a varied life as a musician and social worker, even headed a national organization called "Head Start."
Then about a year ago, he decided to finish his degree. I guess they made a special allowance to count his decades-old college credits, and he took a few classes and finished his degree.
Pretty cool story, I think.
https://source.wustl.edu/2021/05/a-6...udent-to-alum/
I've found when I yawn, I'm super sensitive to some internal noises, such as bass noises I can make with my vocal chords. It's like a door has been opened to my ears. It's really loud and sometimes I can do a flat four beat, and I have my very own techno.
Oh, interesting. How do you equalize pressure?Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
Hell yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Hold your nose shut with your fingers and try blowing out of it, your ears will pop.Quote:
Originally Posted by boost
Oh, that thing, cool. I'll try it next time I get ear aidsQuote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Repeated swallowing works, too, and is safer.
You can only increase pressure one way with the trick poopy described.
If you overdo it, you're kinda in the same spot.
Chewing a stick of gum helps keep your salivary glands active.
I think you mean cocco.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
What happens if you blow too hard? Can you burst an eardrum? Cool.
I really doubt it. The nose blowing thing is one of the first you're taught when you start scuba diving.
I'll go along with this, I can't tell which gender they are either.
https://twitter.com/i/events/1394955529408057348
:/
If someone tells you what gender they are (in this case non-binary), and you say you can't tell what gender they are, then you're probably being an asshat.
Just FYI.
You definitely would be an asshat if you said that to someone's face, or anywhere they might read it. But since they almost certainly aren't reading poker forum community pages, I feel free to express my view that this is a bit silly.
The whole concept of gender-fluidity just strikes me as odd. Let's say I engage in some typically feminine behaviour once in a while. Should I go announce to the world that I'm not really 100% masculine and therefore I want to be called "he" 90% of the time and "she" 5% of the time, and "they" the other 5% on the days when I'm not sure? And for this person, clearly they're walking a fine line between male and female, and there's no problem with that. My problem is that they make a big announcement out of it like it's some brave coming out for them. Like no shit, you're androgynous, why announce the obvious?
It's like me going on twitter and saying "you know what everyone? I'm actually ok with being called "him" since as you all could have guessed, I'm pretty much a guy almost all the time by any measure you want to use. So hey, look at me everyone, I'm a hero. Gimme attention. Gimme gimme gimme!!"
Just to be clear, I have no problem with this person wanting to be called "they". I'll call them whatever they want. "Captain Crunch? Sure, whatever makes you happy." They can do anything else they like.
What annoys me is that instead of just quietly changing their signature from he/she to they, this person makes a big public announcement and acts so proud of it. Like anybody cares.
I mean we've got to the point where you can basically make your own gender up and be it.
And I don't think even there's anything necessarily wrong with that. If it gives someone comfort, then go ahead. I think in this person's case, it seems they're id'ing themselves correctly now as androgynous. And that's absolutely fine, it's not like they chose to be that way just to confuse people who prefer to live in a binary world.
It just seems like a personal matter to me and I don't get why they feel the need to announce it to the world like we're supposed to care one way or the other.
Yes, and also, you're an asshat for saying it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Your feelings, in this case, are ignorant and hurtful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Fix your asshat views and don't blame other's people's private lives as a reason to be a jerk.
You lazy poop.
Great place to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
What next? Accept your ignorance and continue to say hurtful things? Or educate yourself (broadly in your field of expertise, I dare say) and learn to be a more wholesome person?
Some binary label assigned to a person at birth has no bearing on how they see themselves, or who they love or what kind of clothes they want to wear. It was never going to be binary. It was always going to marginalize good people with no more or less to offer the world than anyone else.
Don't buy into the hate.
Of course this is perfectly natural and fine. So long as you're not being a jerk about it, and you help us to accommodate you when we inevitably make mistakes, I'm happy to oblige you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
The implication that anyone should be justified in responding to you with hate, or to assume you're trolling is beyond me, and clearly morally wrong. If you're trolling, then stop being a jerk. If you're honest, then celebrate who you are, and celebrate who other people are. There's nothing to be gained by tearing each other down.
(You lazy poop.)
These are valid criticisms of the person's motivation to speak out on this. Questioning their sexuality or gender or other personal attributes is a dick move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
And you didn't bring anything akin to this up originally. So take a moment to reflect why your initial post was hinting at bigotry and not applying your intellectual flare... and whether or not the application of said intellect isn't ad hock BS.
And maybe even give them a nod that you became engaged in a conversation that maybe decreased your knee-jerk reaction to dehumanize someone just for being different than you expected.
No, it's always been this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
We're getting to a point where doing so isn't a death sentence - either literal or figurative.
We're getting to a point where people simply being and celebrating who they are is becoming more awesome.
Mojo, I'm not sure what gives you the right to claim the moral high ground here, where you can call me names and in the same breath claim that I'm the one using hurtful language, but perhaps a little humility would serve you as well as everyone else.
So you're saying that words have consequences?
Interesting.
You're saying that my words calling you out for saying some shite are inappropriate, but your spewing of shite wasn't?
Interesting.
Please forgive my assessment of this as hypocrisy, as I assume you don't see it as such.
Can you explain to me?
Don't ignore or pretend that ad hominem attacks on me changes what you said.
If you want to talk about my humility later, I'm all ears.
Right now, the conversation is about the ignorant and hurtful thing you said, and then got called out on.
What you wrote dehumanized not just the person making the video, but anyone who identifies as gender non-binary.
If that was your intent (which you seem to be telling me it wasn't), then take a moment to learn why, and consider changing your assumptions.
Or at least apologize for having accidentally said something that doesn't reflect your deeper thoughts.
***
Calling that hurtful comment an asshat thought is spot on.
Saying that someone who says hurtful, asshat comments out loud is therefore being an asshat is just science.
You can't actually be offended by the word asshat, right? I intentionally chose a childish-sounding non-insult to make it clear that I'm not trying to be hurtful.
Seriously, if you can't see the humor in this, then let me make it clear... I was being playful
"There's nothing to be gained by tearing each other down.
(You lazy poop.)"
You don't have to agree with how someone expresses themselves, but you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of (ad hominens, hurtful language) by using words like "asshat" and "bigot". Now you're adding hypocrisy to the list where it only applies to you. That clear enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
How about let's talk about humility now. You judged what I said as "ignorant and hurtful" and then used ad hominems to attack me rather than attack the words. You could have just said "hey I find those words offensive," and gone from there, instead of making it personal.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
So before we discuss any more, try to recognize that you alone aren't the final arbiter of human morality. I.e., you dont' get to decide what is ignorant and what is hurtful and what is or isn't out of line. If a bunch of others jumped in and agreed with you, you might have an argument. Right now, all you have is an opinion and one you've expressed in a way that undermines your own argument.
I disagree. All I said was I agree with their choice of words, I never said they weren't human or any less of a person than anyone else. I even clarified later on that I didn't mean that. You're the one who read all the negativity into it, and stuck to that interpretation despite further evidence to the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
FFS, get off your high horse already.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
I will do that as soon as you apologise for making a big deal out of what I said in the first post as if I never qualified it in the others that followed.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
Now you say you were being playful but there's nothing in your other posts that indicate any sense of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
So ok, if you were joking then fine, so was I. Happy to draw a line under it all.
You can't say that when I point out the things I said earlier were designed to defuse tension means either that I wasn't being serious or that I changed the meaning of what I've said.
That's more asshattery.
As for the word hypocrisy - I directly acknowledged that you probably don't agree, and I asked you to explain your side of it.
Pretending that was an insult or ad hominem attack on you is more asshattery.
I said this, "So take a moment to reflect why your initial post was hinting at bigotry and not applying your intellectual flare"
and you turn that into me calling you a bigot?
You're like 5% away from banana, here. The only way that sentence is calling you a bigot is if you actually stand behind what you said as you said it.
Well, if the shoe fits.
***
Oh you were joking?
Is that the truth of it all?
You think it's funny to dehumanize gender non-binary people? Haha... you're persecuted by society and I'm only playing along out of hipster-levels of irony.
Do I get it, now?
That was the joke?
How does that change my point in calling you out?
Your joke was insensitive and dehumanizing to people who have done nothing wrong, nothing to you, and are just trying to make sense of their own life experiences as a human.
People who get persecuted to the point of inflicting emotional trauma don't need your jokes.
And I'm surprised a psychologist needs this explained to them.
I don't really want to get into a big back and forth of walls of text about who's a bigger asshat and why, and find out what other slights you want to toss my way.
I think this is a common theme with you though. You're quick to take the moral high ground with someone and when they point out why that's not on, you dig in your heels.
So, I'm not going to continue the transgender "debate" with you, partly because I don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other, but mostly because I don't want to fall out with you over it.
I have decided I am 98 years old.
There are potentially over 7 billion human genders. A wonderful species.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
I mean, this really does depend if you consider gender to be a matter of biology or psychology. I'm in the former group. You don't choose your gender just like you don't choose your age, or race. If a man wishes to identify as female, I don't have a problem with that at all, but I'm not going to change my views on biology just because someone's feelings might get hurt. I still consider this person to be male identifying as female, rather than simply female.
You seem to be conflating 3 different things.
Biological sex, gender identity, and the way gender identity fits into the culture.
Even biological sex is non-binary. Not all humans are born as either male or female. Not all humans have 2 chromosomes. Not all humans are either XX or XY. Biological sex is non-binary, QED.
Many supermodels - the ones with the extra tall, muscle-toned physique especially so - are XXY chromosome. The Y chromosome add androgynous traits that are valued as beauty in many cultures around the world.
Biological nonbinary gender is a (silently celebrated) part of our lives.
Gender identity exists across a vast spectrum, and pertains to how a person views their own sexual being. Whether or not this is the same as their biological sex varies widely, as well. Poop was joking (I think) about feeling female 5% of the time, but it's not impossible for someone to feel that way. People's gender identity is non-binary.
The way a person's gender identity interacts with their culture is another factor. The perception of gender, if you like. Take the "lady-boy" gender in Thai culture for example. This is a culturally accepted gender, fitting within the norms of society. Cultural gender identities are non-binary.
Look at it this way:
If you meet someone and they tell you their name is Jeff, you call them Jeff.
You don't say, "Well, you look like a Steve to me, so I'm calling you Steve."
'Cause that's confusing and not helpful, and if it happened to all Jeffs, then it'd be understandable for Jeff to feel like this is rude AF.
Gender can't always be easily distinguished, so just going with whatever someone tells you is polite.
Why does your impression of whether or not they're a manley enough man or a womanly enough woman matter any more than if you were to tell someone, "You look like a Steve. I'll just call you Steve."
It's a bit more ambiguous than this even biologically though. There's a small but non-zero chance someone is born a hermaphrodite.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Further, even assuming one's sex organs are unambiguous, there are a lot of other factors, including biological, that influence sexuality. Hormones for one. We've all seen manly females and feminime males. They're not just people who are confused because they're parents dressed them funny. A significant number of them are actually fairly ambiguous biologically.
I mean, I don't even care what gender someone identifies as. I'm not going to ask, and I don't care to be told.
If gender is a self identity, it's nothing more than a figment of the human imagination. Not all human thoughts are worthy of respect.
"Lady boys" aren't the best example of what I'm discussing. Lady boys have tits and cock. These are physical traits, not a self identity in the sense of just making up your own gender. I don't have a problem with lady boys, so long as I don't get trapped by one.
I have a problem with ridiculous notions like a big burly man in a dress with lippy and a beard to match, calling HIMself a woman, this isn't what gender is. And if it is, then it's meaningless.
Just because it's meaningless to you, doesn't mean it's meaningless to others.
Indeed, to some people it's about the only thing that matters.
Just call people what they want to be called. Who cares what they look like or how that matches up to your preconceived notions of what it means to be a person?
Why do you even care? Why do you even have an opinion on what someone wants to be called?
What's so hard if the big woman in a dress with a beard and hairy arms wants to be called she?
What does it cost you to be nice to them?
(assuming they're acting kind)
Fine. So if I want to be a woman, I'm a woman. If I want to be 89 years old, I'm 89 years old. If I want to be black, I'm black. If I want to be a tree, I'm a tree.Quote:
What's so hard if the big woman in a dress with a beard and hairy arms wants to be called she?
What does it cost you to be nice to them?
Where does it end?
I don't want you to use the word "and" because I don't like the sound of it. Use that word you're an asshat.
Honestly, I think you're missing the point. I don't care. I tried to make that clear in my last post. I'm not impolite, I'll address people as they wish, but I reserve the right to find it ridiculous.Quote:
Just call people what they want to be called. Who cares what they look like or how that matches up to your preconceived notions of what it means to be a person?
This would make it an obsession. If literally the first thing an individual wishes to discuss with me when I meet them is their gender identity, frankly I don't want to be friends with this individual. It shouldn't be that important. If it is, something is wrong. If all that matters to you is your own sense of gender identity, you are self obsessed. Why should I cater to such egocentric traits?Quote:
...to some people it's about the only thing that matters.
Nothing, but I'm not going to sit here and say I think they should be allowed to use women's public toilets. Their sense of gender identity is their business, but when it compromises the right of women to safe spaces, I'm not on board.Quote:
What does it cost you to be nice to them?
If Big Dave wants to be referred to as "she", fine, but I'm going to find it funny.
Again, I think you're confusing biological sex with gender identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
You can't change your chromosomes (yet, I wouldn't put it past medical science to figure this out, frankly). You can't change your age. You can probably change your skin color (Michael Jackson allegedly did). You certainly can't become a tree.
If you want to identify as those things, then fine, I may think you're weird to want to be a tree. I may not want to spend time with a weirdo tree-identifying person, because I don't relate to them. (I mean... if you can pull of a bit of photosynthesis, then I'll reconsider spending time with you.) That's one thing. Openly ridiculing their identity is another thing entirely.
There's no real "man behaviors" and "woman behaviors" outside of cultural roles. Gender roles are a social construct. How that construct interacts with each individual personality is going to be unique. That doesn't mean it's unimportant. It's a personality trait we all hold. We all have a gender identity because our cultures define maleness / femaleness with arbitrary lines based on historical BS. The odds that any one of our gender identity is exactly in line with cultural gender roles is about as likely as any member of a political party is 100% in agreement with every party line. It might happen, but that is the exception, not the norm.
Every human has slightly different political views. Does that make it a figment of imagination? Does it being a figment of imagination mean it's not relevant to people's lives?
What's your beef with imagination? What's the difference between identifying as a hipster or a goth? A Republican or Democrat? Not saying all those choices are equally likeable, but
why is your ire less when it comes to someone imagining themselves outside of other social roles, but the gender roles really push your buttons?
Where it ends is with a choice to be kind or a jerk. Someone is different than you expected them to be. Are you going to accept them for who they are, or are you going to argue with them that you know better who they are than they do themselves?
My whole point is that people are more than any one of us can imagine. If someone's being genuine with you about who they are, then what moral reason is there to behave like a jerk about it.
Sure, if someone is trolling you, or being disingenuous, that's a different issue entirely.
***
We all already know I'm an asshat, so that's a moot point.
I did your challenge, though. Suck it, asshat!
Mojo, you should consider "stream of consciousness" as your new identity.
Ong can be "bowl of strawberry ice cream" as a homage to his gammon buddies.
I'll be "asshat extraordinare."
I mean... I'm only saying that if your choice is to be disrespectful to them, then that's being a jerk.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
And I'm trying to be clear that if someone is being a jerk to you, or disingenuous in what they're asking you to do to accommodate their identity, then gloves are off.
I tend to get my hackles up when your (ong) knee-jerk reaction is to assume the latter, rather than that to first assume this person has expressed a vulnerability and made a polite request.
What other people are obsessed with is a vast range of things. Whether or not a person's gender identity reaches a level of obsession, I'm sure, varies. I agree that if someone's primary topic of conversation is their gender, then I'm disinterested.
This is offensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
If a sexual predator is exploiting cross-dressing to attack women, then that's a criminal who needs to be stopped.
The assertion that the presence of someone who identifies as a woman being in a woman's restroom is inherently making that space unsafe is akin to accusing everyone who doesn't fit the gender norms of society as a violent criminal.
That's fucked up, man.
IDK of any criminal syndicate of sexual predators attacking women in toilets under the clever guise of wearing a dress.
C'mon.
You know that's absurd.
And if a bigotted woman needs to wait outside for a few minutes until the person she has an irrational fear of is finished wiping their bum or whatever, then fuck her. If you have rational fears, I'm on your team. If you're just being a jerk for no reason, then STFU.
So is most of the planet.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo
Woman is a biological sex, not a gender. At least, that's what it used to mean. Woman, to me, is the term for an adult female human, what a girl grows up to be. So no matter how much I might wish to identify as a woman, I will never be a woman. I could undergo gender reassignment surgery, but that doesn't make me a woman. It makes me transgender. Trans rights activists seem to be on a mission to redefine what "woman" means. I have a problem with that, and the problem is that is erodes women's rights, safe spaces, and the integrity of women's sports.
I don't think this is true, but it's a different discussion. The vast majority of species on the planet possess different roles and traits for sexes. Humans are no exception. Men are naturally stronger. Why do you suppose that is? Evolution made it that way, and for a reason. The different traits between (most) males and females are entirely natural, and served to give humans an evolutionary advantage. Why do you suppose girls like assholes? They like alpha males because instinctively it's an appealing trait for women.Quote:
There's no real "man behaviors" and "woman behaviors" outside of cultural roles.
Of course humans are socially complex, incredibly so, and no longer do these traits play a role in our evolution. Or at least, not to anywhere near the degree they did. Men no longer need to be stronger than women, yet we still are. That shows that natural evolutionary traits take a long time to be weaned out of the gene pool.
You can argue that "manly" traits are cultural if you like, and probably culture plays a role in maintaining these traits, but you can't ignore nature. It plays an important role.
Sure, but if someone is insisting I call them a tree, who's being the jerk?Quote:
Where it ends is with a choice to be kind or a jerk.
Fair enough. But we're talking as buddies here, what "disrespectful" opinions I might share here would not be shared with someone who is making what I consider to be ridiculous gender identity demands. But at the same time, polite as I might be in terms of using their preferred pronoun, I'll also try my hardest to avoid engaging with someone who is obsessed with their gender.Quote:
I mean... I'm only saying that if your choice is to be disrespectful to them, then that's being a jerk.
And I'm trying to be clear that if someone is being a jerk to you, or disingenuous in what they're asking you to do to accommodate their identity, then gloves are off.
To you, maybe. A man in a dress calling himself a woman and scaring women in the toilets, that's offensive to me. So there's a problem. Why should your offended opinion trump mine?Quote:
This is offensive.
Most people are ignorant, angry, irrational, and fearful of any person who is "different" from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
For most of history, most white people thought they were inherently better than all black people.
This wasn't true, even though popular, and it caused immense harm.
The mere fact that gender non-binary people aren't as populous as black people shouldn't change anything about the similarities in unjustified mistreatment. And of course, I'm not saying everything about that discrimination is the same. But to the extent that it is the same, what possible justification can there be for this? It's just non-violent people being themselves, as complicated and unexpected as it may be, it's not a threat to anyone or anything.
This is well-said, and you might have just left it there, rather than defend historical ignorance and culturally-based notions of male and female roles.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Your understanding of biological sex seems to continue to fail to absorb that biological sex is non-binary.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Of course, however you view your own gender is your business and your choice. Anyone who tries to tell you you are something you don't see yourself as, they're the one being a jerk. Your right to define your own gender on your own terms is commensurate with everyone else's right to do so.
Your choice is to be nice to them or to be a jerk. Telling someone, "You look like a Steve, so I'm just going to call you Steve." is still an appropriate characterization of your disagreement.
This is a lie. There is no evidence of this happening anywhere. It's BS hypothetical situations made up by haters and they only hold true if you buy in to the prejudice that transgender people are liars, and trying to undermine something about society in their mere presence.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
It's totally messed up.
Of all the stories I've seen of a transgender female engaging in sports - you know who wasn't upset, bothered, complaining?
The other girls on that and their competitor's sports teams.
This is a lie fabricated by haters to trigger an irrational fear and the parenting instinct to protect children.
It's total BS.
Everything that follows is a distraction, and not relevant in the slightest. Statistically, men are more varied than women. Statistically, men are stronger, but it's not remotely the case that all men are stronger than all women. Any doofus knows that.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But we're not talking about physical traits. We're talking about identity and how that interacts with culture.
Biological sex is science. Gender is not. Gender is a cultural construct. Neither has ever been binary, despite the lies spread by our culture.
It depends.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Are they sincere? If yes, they're not a jerk. If no, they're a jerk.
If they are sincere and you don't accommodate, then you are a jerk.
If they are sincere and you do accommodate, then neither of you is a jerk.
If they are insincere and you accommodate, then you are playing along, maybe joking, and probably not a jerk.
If they are insincere and you don't accommodate, then you're still not a jerk.
It's really not that hard. I don't see why you're confused about this.
If someone sincerely wants to be called Jeff, you call then Jeff, and you don't call them Steve.
EZ game.
If there is a sexual predator in any restroom, that's a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
My position trumps yours because yours is defending irrational fears that demand someone just doing what is natural to them and harming no one being victimized.
The assumption that any transgender person is automatically a threat to a gender binary person is clearly BS.
If someone is just going about their business, harming no one, and someone else starts causing a scene... the one causing something out of nothing is the one in the wrong.
If there is a rational fear of a sexual predator, then of course, I'm on your side. If the clothing someone chooses to wear scares you, or a benign word they describe themself with does, then calm down and get a grip, and FFS don't be a jerk to someone who is not causing any harm.
There are real human rights problems in this world, and seeing someone with a beard and a dress in a lady's room is not on the list.
***
Anecdotally, have you ever been in a crowded men's room when a lady walks in?
It's the opposite of an "unsafe space" for her.
Then I'd argue it's instinctive. It's like hating the lion for killing the zebra.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo
The word "woman" is not a defence of historical ignorance. It has nothing to do with "roles". The word woman means female, not feminine.Quote:
This is well-said, and you might have just left it there, rather than defend historical ignorance and culturally-based notions of male and female roles.
I'm not talking about the one-in-a-thousand people who are biologically different. We're talking about self identity here, of people who were born either male or female.Quote:
Your understanding of biological sex seems to continue to fail to absorb that biological sex is non-binary.
You seem to think that my refusal to redefine the word "woman" to include bearded Dave in a dress equates to historical racism. It doesn't. I don't think I'm better than Dave. I don't think I have more rights than Dave. I just don't think Dave is legally a woman. I think to allow Dave to legally become a woman is a dangerous precedent to set, putting at risk women's safe space and sports. This isn't about any sense of superiority. So it is absolutely not in any way relatable to historical racism. Someone being oppressed because of the colour of their skin is not remotely close to telling Dave he's not a woman, though he is free to dress and behave as one.
Are you sure about this?Quote:
This is a lie. There is no evidence of this happening anywhere.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/46453958
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p...women-going-to
It doesn't sound like you are being rational about this.Quote:
It's BS hypothetical situations made up by haters
I mean, this is quite a leap. I don't understand how you get to this conclusion.Quote:
and they only hold true if you buy in to the prejudice that transgender people are liars
Every individual transgender person is unique. Some are liars, some are not. Just like any other group of people. And just liek any other group, some are dangerous, while the vast majority are not.
Wait, you just told me there's no evidence of this happening, and now you acknowledge it is happening.Quote:
Of all the stories I've seen of a transgender female engaging in sports - you know who wasn't upset, bothered, complaining?The other girls on that and their competitor's sports teams.
Some of the girls competing do complain. Many don't, for whatever reason. Maybe they don't even have a problem with it. Good for them. But the problem will be that young girls will slowly lose the incentive to take sport seriously, as they will be outcompeted at elite level by transgender athletes. I feel like it's on the same moral level as me identifying as disabled and competing against people in wheelchairs.
Not once have I actually suggested that either sex or gender is binary. That's a word you keep using. Sex is a physical trait. It's biology. Gender is whatever you want it to be, which makes it a figment of the human imagination. Woman is biology, not psychology. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying Dave can't dress as a woman. All I'm saying is he isn't a woman. Or she. Whatever. I don't care about pronouns, but I do care about women having places reserved for women, such as public toilets, shower rooms at pools and beaches, etc.Quote:
Biological sex is science. Gender is not. Gender is a cultural construct. Neither has ever been binary, despite the lies spread by our culture.
I mean I'm not going to laugh in someone's face if they tell me they sincerely identify as a tree, but I'm going to assume some kind of mental illness. Not that mental illness is something to be ashamed of, but people get offended if you dare to suggest gender identity issues are a mental illness.Quote:
Are they sincere? If yes, they're not a jerk. If no, they're a jerk.
Fine. I haven't argued once about this. But if Jeff is six foot tall, broad, and has a beard, we can't be allowing him, sorry her, to waltz into the women's toilets. Just like if someone tells me they're a tree, that doesn't mean he has the right to stand in my garden with a bird on his head.Quote:
If someone sincerely wants to be called Jeff, you call then Jeff, and you don't call them Steve.
Your opinion trumps mine because of your opinion that it's based on an irrational fear.Quote:
My position trumps yours because yours is defending irrational fears that demand someone just doing what is natural to them and harming no one being victimized.
Right.
No, I think both of our opinions are equally as valid.
I haven't said this. You're making so many assumptions, which I assume is based on how the media portray transphobes. You assume this is based on hate, or fear. You're wrong.Quote:
The assumption that any transgender person is automatically a threat to a gender binary person is clearly BS
A man is not automatically a threat to women. Men cannot enter women's toilets.
This isn't about fear or hate. It's about women being safe, and comfortable. I haven't had a problem with that my entire life, despite not being allowed to piss in women's toilets. I never once tried to argue I'm not a rapist so should be allowed in. Should I have that right as a man? If not, why not? Why should Dave in a dress have that right, but not me?
Many times has a woman decided she doesn't want to queue up with the bitches and comes into the men's. Fair play to her, I don't care. Men in there tend to take a second look and then get on with having a piss without giving a fuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo
Try being a dude and walking into the women's. See how that goes.
I've never seen this happen. Is this something that happens in the boonies?Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
I did this by mistake once. Pissed up and the sign on the door looked like a dude to me lol. Got a couple funny looks, realised where I was, and did a U-turn. No-one ran away screaming or anything though.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
idk what the boonies is but I guess it depends where you drink. Seen it happen plenty of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by poop
I mean, it's funny. These women probably laughed when they saw the look on your face and promptly turn around. I doubt you'd get giggles if you went into a cubicle, put the seat up, and pissed like a man. You'd probably make someone feel rather uncomfortable. Why would that be any different if you're wearing a dress?Quote:
I did this by mistake once. Pissed up and the sign on the door looked like a dude to me lol. Got a couple funny looks, realised where I was, and did a U-turn. No-one ran away screaming or anything though.
The argument that transgender people aren't dangerous is completely missing the point. Men aren't dangerous either. This isn't why women have safe spaces. It's a matter of privacy. Women want a space where they can feel comfortable around others of the same sex. Not gender. Sex. Woman isn't a gender.
I seriously can't believe I'm the only one in this forum defending the position to not be a jerk to people who aren't causing harm.
Just call people what they want to be called, and don't go inventing problems where none exist.
Your personal views on what a human should be are not the end-all be-all of what a human can be or is. Kick your own self for being under-informed about the complexity of human identity, and look at what's actually happening. Learn. No single person can understand the totality of what it can mean to be human.
So why get bent out of shape when someone sees themselves outside the box your imagination has put humanity in?
Why do you care?
You seem to really care whether or not someone had a penis or vaj when they were born. I mean, if you're trying to decide whether or not to have sex with them, then I can understand why you care, but otherwise, I don't. Why do you even care?
Some people are different than you expected once. Now you know that there are some people like that.
Why do you insist on acting ignorant about it? You're not ignorant, anymore.
Why get so bent out of shape on accommodating people in what amounts to you as nothing more than a symmantic argument?
Why invent boogeymen of bathroom safety and some hypothetical problem with women's sports?
Even if there are some abuses by some people - you seem to be holding those few abuses against all transgender people.
Why the stereotype?
Why can't you simply take each person on a case by case basis?
I seriously don't understand why you'd rather behave in a way that makes other people feel bad about themselves when all they're asking you is to not be a jerk.
Why not just not be a jerk?
What you're failing to realise is that this is just an opinion, and one I don't share. Nobody is being a jerk. I'm only interested in protecting women. That isn't me being a jerk.Quote:
I seriously can't believe I'm the only one in this forum defending the position to not be a jerk to people who aren't causing harm.
You are making SO MANY ASSUMPTIONS. Stop for a minute and think this through. Again, this isn't what I'm saying. This isn't about how I believe people should behave or act, this isn't about society imposes roles on people. This is about women having their own spaces and sports, that's all I give a fuck about.Quote:
Your personal views on what a human should be are not the end-all be-all of what a human can be or is.
You're the one bent out of shape.Quote:
So why get bent out of shape when someone sees themselves outside the box your imagination has put humanity in?
About how someone identifies? I don't.Quote:
Why do you care?
About why women should have their own spaces? Why don't you care about this?
You're simplifying it massively here. This isn't about penis or vagina. When it comes to safe spaces, it's about privacy. When it comes to sports, it's about testosterone. It's got nothing to do with me, and everything to do with what it means to be a woman.Quote:
You seem to really care whether or not someone had a penis or vaj when they were born.
PRIVACYQuote:
Why invent boogeymen of bathroom safety
Do you think I should be allowed to use the women's toilets if I choose? If not, why not?
I don't understand why this topic brings out the irrational side of you. This isn't science. You're not listening to what I say, you're not thinking about this from a rational point of view, you are making assumptions and getting irate about it, calling me a jerk when you're not even listening. This ins't what I expect from you.Quote:
I seriously don't understand why you'd rather behave in a way that makes other people feel bad about themselves when all they're asking you is to not be a jerk.
Why is it so important to you that some people (those that you categorize as women) have privacy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Definition of boonies
US, informal
: a thinly settled rural area
Really? A woman is ok with walking into a room where a bunch of cocks are waving around?Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Seriously, this must only happen in the boonies.
I mean, your idea of "harm" here is lacking. Do you think I am causing "harm" if I compete against wheelchair athletes? I do. I think that's harmful. I might not be punching anyone in the face, but I'm using a physical advantage to outcompete sporting rivals. If I'm allowed to do that, what incentive is there for wheelchair people to take up elite sports? Just fitness, something to do. There certainly isn't the same incentive as able bodied folk have... competition and success.Quote:
I seriously can't believe I'm the only one in this forum defending the position to not be a jerk to people who aren't causing harm.
That's what happens if we allow transgender folk to compete with women. Those with a physical advantage will win more often. This is why Serena Williams is the greatest female tennis player of all time. She's built like a man. She's strong and fit. This is fair, because she was born a woman. She's a prime female athlete. I'm certainly not ripping into Serena here, just using her as an example of how easy it is for a strong and fit individual to dominate women's sport. In Serene'a case, it's fair. But Dave in a dress, that isn't fair.
Sport is important. It is not merely a hobby, it is peoples' lives. Fair competition should be encouraged.
I think if you can close the door to the cubicle, that's enough privacy for anyone. No-one has to see your goodies if you don't want them to.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Aren't there unisex toilets in some places?
Does this really need to be answered?Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Why can't I be allowed to use female public shower rooms?
Unisex toilets are the obvious solution nobody wants to talk about. I honestly get the impression that trans rights activists don't want solutions, they want to destroy what it means to be a woman. Even cocco is using language like "those that you categorize as women" like it's ambiguous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Woman is a sex, not a gender.
Didn't that one person go from male to female and then kick the crap out of all the women in MMA? Yeah, I don't see that as fair. I guess you need another division for trans people, because just letting them have 20+ years of male hormones then decide that because they're female now they can compete with other women who haven't had 20+ years of male hormones, that doesn't really work does it?Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
I don't get the impression this is true. It's more like they've been marginalised for a very long time and finally now getting their voices heard. But I've never heard any of them insist that they wouldn't use a unisex toilet.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
My sense is most people consider the term "woman" can refer to either a sex or a gender.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Again, another solution that nobody wants to talk about. I'm totally down with this, and would probably watch such sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by poop
It first has to be established there's a difference between a trans person and a trans rights activist. They are different groups, with some crossover but not much. Those who get bent out of shape over these issues tend not to be trans.Quote:
Originally Posted by poop
I don't think trans people have a problem with unisex toilets, on the whole. I think it's trans rights activists who have a problem.
If woman can be a gender, so too can disabled.Quote:
My sense is most people consider the term "woman" can refer to either a sex or a gender.
Could be. I mean, I don't really follow it, it's more like background noise in my life right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Huh? Gender is along a continuum of male-female. Disabled doesn't fit anywhere in there. You can be a pedant about using the word "woman" to indicate "female," but I doubt anyone thinks it's a worthy discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
NB. Handicapped public bathrooms are all unisex afaik. No-one seems to be losing their shit over that.
It has to be said, I base this off Twitter, which as well all know is a poor sample.Quote:
Originally Posted by poop
It doesn't have to be along binary male-female ideas. Mojo is making this point, and on that I agree.Quote:
Huh? Gender is along a continuum of male-female.
I mean, it wasn't the best example, I was being somewhat flippant there, but woman is a sex, and if people are using that word to describe a gender, they are doing so inaccurately. Gender is an identity, if we're saying woman is a gender because you can identify as a woman, then anything I can identify as is a gender.