Randomness thread, part two.

My whole point is that the word privilege makes white people defensive.
Congrats on demonstrating what I was saying, ong. You've perfectly made my point.

It's not a good word. The word privilege shuts the chance of progressive dialogue down.

Of course I don't want you to feel guilty for being white. I'm white. I'm not saying I should feel guilty for a system that doesn't persecute me. I'm saying the word privilege is not a good one. It shouldn't be a privilege to not be persecuted and killed, it should be the norm for everyone.


Your soapbox is that looting is bad. No one is arguing with you. Yet you keep saying it.
My "soapbox" about trying to understand why this problem is "unspeakable" and has happened once.

I found a video of Ong in Dallas yesterday!

https://twitter.com/neIIychillin/sta...441349634?s=20

Congratulations to the 2 Americans who left Earth yesterday.
Good choice.

https://media.tenor.com/images/6a0b4...80be/tenor.gif

What would you replace it with? "White advantage?" Does that make it less abrasive? Not trying to be funny, I just don't know any way to put it that sounds nice.

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Originally Posted by oskar

I found a video of Ong in Dallas yesterday!

https://twitter.com/neIIychillin/sta...441349634?s=20

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That's good! And here's another picture of Ong restoring law and order in Dallas.


https://s.hdnux.com/photos/75/76/57/...ery_xlarge.jpg

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Originally Posted by oskar

I found a video of Ong in Dallas yesterday!

https://twitter.com/neIIychillin/sta...441349634?s=20

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Apparently this guy has a whole youtube channel of videos where he goes out and gives cops a hard time. It's pretty funny actually.

Also a pretty good demonstration of white advantage. If he were black, he would have been shot 165 times by now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

What would you replace it with? "White advantage?" Does that make it less abrasive? Not trying to be funny, I just don't know any way to put it that sounds nice.

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We already have a word for it. Inequality. Or perhaps discrimination. Even racism or oppression. The problem with "white privilege" is its focus is on what whites have, rather than what black people don't have. I appreciate mojo doesn't want me to feel guilty for being white, but the term "white privilege" is loaded to make white people feel guilty. That's why it rubs some people up the wrong way. White people shouldn't be the focus of discrimination against black people. It's not white people discriminating, it's the system, and the system is made of wealthy people of all races.

This is how white people are manipulated by race. They are made to feel guilty for enjoying freedoms that should be taken for granted. It's so subtle that people don't even realise they feel and demand guilt.

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Originally Posted by oskar

I found a video of Ong in Dallas yesterday!

https://twitter.com/neIIychillin/sta...441349634?s=20

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I was hoping for a guy smoking a spliff from a safe distance moaning about looters.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

We already have a word for it. Inequality. Or perhaps discrimination. Even racism or oppression.

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The problem with those words is their neutral with regards to who is inequal in what way to whom. You really need something that describes the imbalance in power in a way that makes the relationship clear. If terms like "white privelege" or "white advantage" rankle white people that's too bad, because they should rankle everybody.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

Apparently this guy has a whole youtube channel of videos where he goes out and gives cops a hard time. It's pretty funny actually.

Also a pretty good demonstration of white advantage. If he were black, he would have been shot 165 times by now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=WuMla6Lwq4s&feature=emb_lo go

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That is one of the all time greats.

The white guy who tried to kill a black kid with a machete appears to be out of the hospital. Not clear if any charges are filed.

https://twitter.com/HarrierMagnus/st...986308109?s=20

"Lawlessness has no place in Chicago"
-Chicago Police Superintendent David Brown

Does no one appreciate the irony?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

We already have a word for it. Inequality. Or perhaps discrimination. Even racism or oppression.

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Why do you think none of those words works to facilitate an open conversation about the history of race in America and how that history creates the present situation with race in America?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

The problem with "white privilege" is its focus is on what whites have, rather than what black people don't have. I appreciate mojo doesn't want me to feel guilty for being white, but the term "white privilege" is loaded to make white people feel guilty. That's why it rubs some people up the wrong way.

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This is exactly what I was saying.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

White people shouldn't be the focus of discrimination against black people. It's not white people discriminating, it's the system, and the system is made of wealthy people of all races.

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That woman in NYC who knew the power of telling the black man, "I'm going to call the police and tell them an African American male is threatening my life." when all he was doing was asking her to follow the law and put her dog on a leash.
She knew her privileged position over him. She designed that sentence to invoke fear and oppression. She knew that without any video recording, she could lie and he would be persecuted.

That white guy in the video oscar posted verbally harassing police... is anyone surprised that he's a white guy? Is there an outcry from white people that he's taking advantage of his privileged position? No.

It's the system that is broken, but that chasm is also so subtle and insidious that it permeates our culture.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

This is how white people are manipulated by race. They are made to feel guilty for enjoying freedoms that should be taken for granted. It's so subtle that people don't even realise they feel and demand guilt.

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You just finished telling me that you don't feel guilty... and now you're saying it makes white people feel guilty.
I have yet to talk to anyone who feels personally guilty.

"I'm not a racist" -David Duke
You think he feels guilty?

Who are you talking about that feels guilty?
I thought we just agreed it's the lack of guilt, and therefore the defensiveness at the suggestion that is stifling open conversations.

I think Ong is right that some POC try to make white people feel guilty for being white. Or maybe guilty is the wrong word - ashamed? I don't buy the whole "sins of the father" shit, or its extension "sins of your cousins" (broadly speaking, in genetic terms). People are responsible for their own behaviour, that's it.

The whole problem with trying to manipulate people into feeling bad for being born a certain colour should be patently obvious to anyone who employs that tactic. It is, in fact, using racism to fight what they claim to be against (racism) and as such is the height of hypocrisy. Those people should fuck right off because they are not helping the situation at all.

I think that's the most I've ever agreed with poop. I need to sit down.

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You just finished telling me that you don't feel guilty... and now you're saying it makes white people feel guilty.
I have yet to talk to anyone who feels personally guilty.

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The guilt is subtle. You feel guilty, you just don't recognise it as guilt.

Oh, so now you know how I feel, but I don't?

:rolleyes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZXedXMX...jpg&name=large

F

:(
It was worse than I even knew.

NYT compiled multiple videos of the George Floyd incident into a single video.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100...ath-video.html

They not only killed him. They pulled him out of a police car to do it.

The fact that only 1 of them has been arrested is just mind-blowing.

https://twitter.com/berniebromanny/s...314783232?s=20

I have always been very critical of police, but I'm it still surprises me that they continue to escalate during something like this. It's like the majority of them feels like they should be allowed to murder and that these protests are entirely unjustified.

If you'll allow me to ong this a bit, to me it looks like the police are just scared shitless. It may not seem that way, but the police are people too. Mostly just normal people, going about their jobs. This isn't standard for them either, and if you have to be scared for your life going to work, you might be a little on edge. Obviously what they did there seemed way out of proportion, but the reason most of the time probably isn't that they enjoy beating people up, but that they're scared.

Oh those poor guys! So sad :(

I wouldn't say there's a need to feel sorry for them, but it often helps trying to understand them, whoever them is.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvwiYy0I...jpg&name=small

This isn't going to end any time soon. NYPD police union doxes Bill de Blasio's daughter.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...7xr880gw7e.png

https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes...ter-1843813751

As I said, we can trust Trump to handle things well.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZYIu0TX...jpg&name=large

Well there's one person that's scared at least.

https://apnews.com/a2326518da6b25b4509bef1ec85f5d7f

As an austrian I can tell you that when the Führer is in the bunker, that's never good!

Hold tight! Liberation army is coming!

https://twitter.com/LowerClassMag/st...079237632?s=20

What, they're not sending the Hitler Youth from Alabama?

Yeah the cops are scared. I mean that cane could do a lot of damage.

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status...33010295042048

I think you meant to link this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9541126.html

But there's also this: https://twitter.com/the7goonies/stat...160590336?s=20
or this: https://twitter.com/zinny_blog/statu...436476930?s=20
or this: https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/stat...020378112?s=20
or this: https://twitter.com/aholla08/status/...051415040?s=20
or this: https://twitter.com/krystalball/stat...371637760?s=20
or this: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status...938988038?s=20
or this: https://twitter.com/EmilyLaquer/stat...002249217?s=20
or this: https://twitter.com/julietmariaa/sta...976635904?s=20

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If you'll allow me to ong this a bit, to me it looks like the police are just scared shitless.

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They're not scared, they're bullies. This is a show of force. They're not going after the looters, they going after the protesters while allowing the looting to continue. idk what the fuck is going on. It's as if this is what the police want.

Is this because it's an election year? Is this the beginning of the dirtiest fight for the presidency in history?

I don't think it's strategic. It's just what police do. Every PD is it's own Milgram Experiment, confirming the results over and over. People who get authority abuse that authority. Especially if they're the kind of people who seek out authoritative positions.

Maybe they feel emboldened by the words of the POTUS to act like stormtroopers.

I don't know if this materialized or not? Any news on whether MAGA night at the WH happened after this tweet from POTUS?

I assume not since he was cowering in his bunker last night.

Waiting for him to marry Ivanka and commit suicide now.


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...24553620930561

French police acted the same during the yellow vest protest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=MAetGLJ_ZDA&feature=emb_l ogo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZLg0yIbaV4

It's an institutional problem.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

They're not scared, they're bullies.

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That's some impressive soul-reading on tens of thousands of people. I'm quite sure that the prevalence of power tripping dickheads and sadistic cunts in the police force exceeds that of the general population, but to say that every act of police brutality or overreaction is done by those is cutting a few corners imo. I would think that most of them are scared as hell, they're (at least in their minds) facing literal angry mobs throwing rocks at them. Yes, they're far better equipped and trained than the protesters, but they're still human.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

This is a show of force. They're not going after the looters, they going after the protesters while allowing the looting to continue. idk what the fuck is going on. It's as if this is what the police want.

Is this because it's an election year? Is this the beginning of the dirtiest fight for the presidency in history?

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I don't know if the police are going after the looters, and if they are would people be as motivated to post stories about that on twitter? It's great that we get video and information about events on social media, but it's good to remember a couple carefully selected shots (which is what we see) is never the whole story. Have you seen videos of police just standing by when there's looting going on?

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Have you seen videos of police just standing by when there's looting going on?

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I got something better (first couple of minutes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=QjYJMmShTp0&feature=emb_lo go

Or this: https://twitter.com/_Helleric_/statu...184083460?s=20

This one didn't even make the news as far as I can tell. I just did some major forensics to find this again:

https://youtu.be/5oJkuQZt4b4?t=418

Girl get knocked out from behind by french riot police a couple seconds after the time stamp. Then a couple dozen cops run over her.

The first video is clearly wtf, the 2nd one is hard to say anything about. If the police have actual orders to frame the protesters for made-up crimes, that's on a completely another level of police state.

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Originally Posted by oskar

This one didn't even make the news as far as I can tell. I just did some major forensics to find this again:

https://youtu.be/5oJkuQZt4b4?t=418

Girl get knocked out from behind by french riot police a couple seconds after the time stamp. Then a couple dozen cops run over her.

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That guy in the lead looked like he was re-enacting some Napoleon era battle in his mind.

Maybe it's just because there's so many protests going on, and thus so many opportunities for bad behavior by the cops to be recorded. But this definitely seems like its out of control in so many places.

Cops shooting at people on their porch, knocking over an old man with a cane, pulling someone's facemask down to mace them, shooting at the press, etc., etc.. I don't recall seeing cops lose it this badly on this scale ever.

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

That guy in the lead looked like he was re-enacting some Napoleon era battle in his mind.

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Overlooking the assault with a deadly weapon, it's always fun to see sedentary fat people try to run.
This is the gold standard: https://youtu.be/eizzq6-LWLs?t=66

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That's some impressive soul-reading on tens of thousands of people.

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Haha you just soul read the same number of people as scared shitless.

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but to say that every act of police brutality or overreaction is done by those is cutting a few corners imo.

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I didn't say that any more than you said every act of police brutality ever was the result of a scared policeman.

I mean, don't get me wrong, the cops will be somewhat afraid at times, but that's not why they're spraying pepper into womens' eyes and pushing over old dudes. They're doing that to show how strong, powerful and untouchable they are. They're trying to scare the protesters. That makes them bullies.

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I don't know if the police are going after the looters, and if they are would people be as motivated to post stories about that on twitter? It's great that we get video and information about events on social media, but it's good to remember a couple carefully selected shots (which is what we see) is never the whole story. Have you seen videos of police just standing by when there's looting going on?

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You're right, Twitter doesn't tell the whole story. And no, I don't recall actually seeing videos of police clearly standing by by looting happens, but I've seen many people making such claims. That doesn't mean I automatically believe them, I know there's a ridiculous amount of disinformation and fake news going on right now, but I am seeing footage of cops being brutal to women and the elderly, while I haven't seen any of these cops getting stuck into looters. The looters should be facing the brunt of the police's brutality, not those waving placards around and daring to be out on the streets.

There are also videos of cops smashing windows. Not sure if that qualifies as 'looting', but if so maybe they should give themselves a face full of pepper and a truncheon in the nuts.

No, that's not looting. It's something, but not looting. But they should definitely unload their mace into their own faces.

https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/stat...12701124837378

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Hong Kongers have been on the streets protesting for over a year.


Not one shop looted.


Not. One.

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If you're one of the people that got all ragey when Colin Kaeperneck took a knee during the national anthem at a football game to protest police brutality,

and you're also now saying the protests should remain peaceful,

then you are the problem, and part of the cause of these violent protests.


***
Also, just to liven the mood in honor of gay pride month:

"If it's the gay pride flag, why does it have straight stripes?"
"It doesn't; it has gay bars."
:h:

For the 1000th time, I do not think the protests should be peaceful.

I think looters are scum.

Those are two very different opinions which for some reason you guys refuse to acknowledge.

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Kaeperneck

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As for this guy, he's a dick. Doesn't matter if his cause is justified or not, he's an average sportsman who wanted to make himself important. One massive ego, look at me.

What he did was deliberately divisive. Very deliberately. On the one hand, all the virtue signallers are all "omg this guy" while all the patriots are like "wtf dude this is the national anthem". I was well orchestrated politics designed to cause division.

So fuck that guy.

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then you are the problem, and part of the cause of these violent protests.

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And I can easily throw this rhetoric right back at you.

You're part of the problem for allowing people like Kaeperneck to sew division and be hailed a fucking hero for it. You're a part of the problem for accusing people thousands of miles away in another country of being a cause of the problem, just because I'm more cynical of the left and their motives. But I'm just using bullshit rhetoric too.

The problem is not someone saying "fuck the looters" and "fuck Kaeperneck", nor someone saying "fuck you for saying that". The problem is people are too easily manipulated by those in control, and we're both subject to that control.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

As for this guy, he's a dick. Doesn't matter if his cause is justified or not, he's an average sportsman who wanted to make himself important. One massive ego, look at me.

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What relevance is it how good a sportsman he is? Is the message not the important thing?

When Muhammad Ali refused induction into the Army to go to Vietnam was he a dick too? He already had plenty of attenion so apparently he wasn't doing it for that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnY_FsxAChg


What about the Black Power guys at the Munich olympics. Dicks?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...man_1968cr.jpg

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

What he did was deliberately divisive. Very deliberately. On the one hand, all the virtue signallers are all "omg this guy" while all the patriots are like "wtf dude this is the national anthem". I was well orchestrated politics designed to cause division.

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He was only pointing out the inequities in the system. It's funny that black people are expected to acquiesce in a system of oppression and if they don't they get called troublemakers and divisive. What could he have done that was unifying? Say 'hey everything's great, cops killing innocent black people is cool.'?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f...14.ap.jpg?w968

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50 years since the Ali and Munich and very little has changed. What do you expect?

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What he did was deliberately divisive. Very deliberately. On the one hand, all the virtue signallers are all "omg this guy" while all the patriots are like "wtf dude this is the national anthem". I was well orchestrated politics designed to cause division.

So fuck that guy.

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His actions weren't just intended to highlight inequality, it was also designed to alienate patriots, creating further division. It was deliberate. But people are too blinded by the "message" to see that he's playing a very dirty political game.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

His actions weren't just intended to highlight inequality, it was also designed to alienate patriots, creating further division. It was deliberate. But people are too blinded by the "message" to see that he's playing a very dirty political game.

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What is the proper way to protest? Apparently if your protest upsets some people, that's out of bounds.

So come on then, give us a nice, apolotical way to make a protest statement.

idk, but if I'm going to engage in high profile protest, I want it to not create further division, because that's counterproductive. If he had done his homework (hint - he had) he would know the Munich athletes received a very mixed reaction, split largely down racial and political lines. I'm highly cynical of his motives.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

idk,

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Exactly. And neither did he, and neither does anyone else. Fact is, if you're going to protest, you're going to piss some people off.

Yeah unsurprising that you'd quote the "idk" and then ignore the rest of it.

My position is clear. If you don't agree, if you think his motives were sincerely to highlight inequality and not to sew division, then fair enough. I don't think that was his only motive. His actions were not unprecedented, he knows his black history and knew exactly what he was doing.

It's 'sow' not 'sew'. Like you how 'sow' a field, not like how you 'sew' a button.

And you haven't answered my question: How could he protest in a way that didn't piss some people off?

If his statement seems too strong for you, maybe ask why he felt such a strong statement was appropriate. Why should he show allegiance to a flag of a country that oppresses his people? Because he was born there? Sorry, but you need a better reason to expect patriotism than that.

It's funny too that the people most pissed off by that are the ones who that system benefits the most. I don't recall anyone who felt oppressed in America saying 'oh man, don't protest the country that oppresses you, you bastard.'

Oh sorry I'll update my "sew sow" file in my brain.

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And you haven't answered my question: How could he protest in a way that didn't piss some people off?

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Yes I did, which you gleefully quoted.

idk

But I also added that I would try to not cause further division. Kaeperneck's actions were designed to cause division.

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If his statement seems too strong for you

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That's not my problem.

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Why should he show allegiance to a flag of a country that oppresses his people? Because he was born there?

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So you can't get into my head, therefore you just wildly guess what's going on in there?

I never once said he should show allegiance to the flag. But taking the knee in such circumstances, given the historical context, that action is clearly going to offend a lot of people. It's not a lack of allegiance, it's an outright act of disrespect. He knows it is, it's not like it's my opinion, history shows us how offended people get when their national anthem or flag is seen to be disrespected.

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It's funny too that the people most pissed off by that are the ones who that system benefits the most.

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Nonsense. It offends patriots, which include rednecks. Or maybe they don't count as "disadvantaged" since they are white.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

It offends patriots, which include rednecks. Or maybe they don't count as "disadvantaged" since they are white.

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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that people who feel oppressed by a system are on the whole a lot less patriotic than those who benefit from it. Seems like human nature, no?

And I'm also gonna guess there is not a problem with police shooting unarmed rednecks either.

I mean, the question he's not so subtly asking is: "Why should I respect the flag of a country that allows my people to be treated as second-class citizens?"

More broadly, I think you could ask the patriots "Why do you love a country that allows a group of people to be treated as second-class citizens?". And if they have other reasons for loving it, perhaps they can still understand there's need for improvement, instead of getting triggered and go all snowflake because someone in the oppressed class doesn't feel the same way as they do about their flag.

Maybe the whole point of protesting is to rattle some chains, since asking politely hasn't worked.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

For the 1000th time, I do not think the protests should be peaceful.

I think looters are scum.

Those are two very different opinions which for some reason you guys refuse to acknowledge.

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What I said is only about you if you fit those "ifs."

I didn't mention looting.

I've acknowledged your opinions every time. No one here has defended looting.

Check your ego, ong. Check your personal motivations. This isn't about you.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

As for this guy, he's a dick. Doesn't matter if his cause is justified or not, he's an average sportsman who wanted to make himself important. One massive ego, look at me.

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Bold is grade A bullshit.

Ego?
It took some balls to do what he did, and a strong enough sense of what he believed in to take that stand despite the repercussions to his career.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

What he did was deliberately divisive. Very deliberately. On the one hand, all the virtue signallers are all "omg this guy" while all the patriots are like "wtf dude this is the national anthem". I was well orchestrated politics designed to cause division.

So fuck that guy.

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Of course it's deliberately divisive. What do you think protest means?

It means the social contract has been broken, and so he used that clause in the social contract that says when the system is broken, protest peacefully. And people made it political, and made it about Kaepernick, rather than Kaepernick's message.

The deliberate turning of attention away from the problem to the protestor is tacit acceptance and approval of the status quo he was protesting against.

The insinuation that he's not a patriot for performing his first amendment rights is another example of how the social contract doesn't apply to people of color.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

And I can easily throw this rhetoric right back at you.

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Because even the pretend notion that I've attacked you is enough for you to retaliate / protest?

What if I'd really attacked you, ong?
What if I was part of a system that routinely attacked you and people who look like you without nuance and without apology?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

You're part of the problem for allowing people like Kaeperneck to sew division and be hailed a fucking hero for it. You're a part of the problem for accusing people thousands of miles away in another country of being a cause of the problem, just because I'm more cynical of the left and their motives. But I'm just using bullshit rhetoric too.

The problem is not someone saying "fuck the looters" and "fuck Kaeperneck", nor someone saying "fuck you for saying that". The problem is people are too easily manipulated by those in control, and we're both subject to that control.

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Right. It was Kaepernick that sowed the division, not the decades of police brutality directed at people of color.

It's only you who decided to feel my words attacked you. My words were not directed at you unless you fit those "ifs."
And if you do fit those "ifs," calling my words an attack is your own ego again. People are being murdered and you're getting defensive over the fact that some words hurt your feelings.

https://twitter.com/jxyzn/status/126...341064704?s=20

This is absolutely beyond parody.


From another angle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVi7jlGzWrE

SMH.

Since when is holding an umbrella an act of violence?

What was the violence there? What was the cause for firing tear gas at those protestors?
Is there violence shown from the Twitter angle that justifies the use of tear gas to disperse the protest?

I'm 99% sure you can watch the twitter video if you click the link.
And no, there's no other provocation as far as I can tell. It's the cop pulling the umbrella who starts it.

I've found where you guys are hanging out!
https://twitter.com/AmiHorowitz/stat...08030206816259

Cliffs for mojo - white privileged liberals having a riot party from the safety of their apartment, thumbs up to the protesters as they march past, protesters throw rocks and break windows, white guys are all "wft we're on you're side".

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Originally Posted by mojo

Of course it's deliberately divisive. What do you think protest means?

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Hong Kong isn't divided, yet they are protesting. Protest doesn't have to drive wedges between different groups of people.

"GTFO God Boy, we got a photo op to do"

https://religionnews.com/2020/06/02/...r-white-house/

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I've found where you guys are hanging out!
https://twitter.com/AmiHorowitz/stat...08030206816259

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I'da probably have put the thumbs down after the first guy threw a rock at my building myself.

I'd probably have the fucking lights out and be somewhere not near the window.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'd probably have the fucking lights out and be somewhere not near the window.

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That occurred to me too. I certainly wouldn't be trying to draw the attention of an angry mob.

Funny how they're sitting there having a drinking party and think they're cool to give the thumbs up to the protesters. Like "we're with you." Well no, you're not, you're in your nice little apartment getting pissed.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

"GTFO God Boy, we got a photo op to do"

https://religionnews.com/2020/06/02/...r-white-house/

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I must admit, those are some pretty nice production values though.

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/statu...7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Giving the fist pump to the stormtroopers is a nice touch.

Waiting for him to caress the cheek of the Alabama Hitler Youth kid.

nice throw!

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Hong Kong isn't divided, yet they are protesting. Protest doesn't have to drive wedges between different groups of people.

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If there wasn't division, then why do they need to protest?
Note: they're not protesting against Hong Kong, they're protesting China.



Of all that I had to respond to you, of all the questions I posed, is this all you have?

You said I was ignoring your opinions, and you respond with this? Ignoring all that I said and asked you?


Dude. We're friends. I'm not against you. I'm against ignorance, violence, and a system that oppresses people, and lets murderers walk free because they have a "brotherhood" of liars to back up their violence.


I've literally sat in a holding cell and listened to 5 police recite and embellish their story about what I did over and over until they all had the same story, full of everyone's most exaggerated version of what happened. Then the 5 split up and wrote their incident reports.

I had the privilege of being a white person who wasn't murdered before I got to that cell, but the liar's code was still used against me.

This isn't some fluke or random event. This is the way the system is.

Ong

Kaepernick started protesting by sitting instead of standing with his hand over his heart during the anthem.

A fellow player and retired Green Beret, Nate Boyer, expressed concerns with the message sitting during the anthem would send. Kaepernick took his council and Boyer advised him to take a knee as a sign of deference to our veterans while maintaining his protest.

Maybe he does have a huge ego, surely he's not perfect, but it sure seems he was trying to protest in a respectful way-- and further he was open to adjusting his protest when he realized it wasn't absolutely clear that he wasn't trying to disrespect veterans or active military. What the fuck more do you want? And maybe if "Idk" is the best you can come up with, maybe you need to take some time to reflect before weighing in again.

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If there wasn't division, then why do they need to protest?
Note: they're not protesting against Hong Kong, they're protesting China.

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They're protesting about both. Hong Kong's leader is not a popular lady.

And the protesters in USA... who are they protesting against? White people? Shop owners? Or the police and state? Because my point remains... protest does not have to be socially divisive. It can be socially unifying. In fact, protest that is socially unifying is much more effective.

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Of all that I had to respond to you, of all the questions I posed, is this all you have?

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Yes, it's getting mentally tiring, like a game of werewolf.

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Dude. We're friends. I'm not against you. I'm against ignorance, violence, and a system that oppresses people, and lets murderers walk free because they have a "brotherhood" of liars to back up their violence.

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I know, there's no problem here.
Ignorance - this is something that vast majority of the world's population are guilty of.
Violence - I'm not against violence, and neither are you. Protest is violence.
A system that oppresses people - great, let's try not to cause division, let's not treat white people like oppressors and blame the state and system instead.

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I had the privilege of being a white person who wasn't murdered before I got to that cell, but the liar's code was still used against me.

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Not getting murder is not a privilege.

boost, do you suppose Kaepernick is ignorant with regards black history? Do you suppose he didn't anticipate a deeply divided reaction?

On another note, the UK has suggested it will offer citizenship to up to 3million Hong Kong citizens if China imposes new security laws. This is where you find out whose anti-immigration sentiments are racist. Here we're talking about a non-religious, economically successful group of people who have already shown they can integrate and respect law and order. I can't think of any reason why we should oppose UK citizenship for Hong Kongers. I would go as far as to say we have an obligation, more so than any other nation on the planet.

Anyone who opposes this I would assume is racist. The cost of integration to the taxpayer will easily be offset by the economic activity of the incoming migrants. There is no risk to national security, or social security. Hong Kongers should be made to feel very welcome here, and for the most part, they will be.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Not getting murder is not a privilege.

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Advantage?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

On another note, the UK has suggested it will offer citizenship to up to 3million Hong Kong citizens if China imposes new security laws.

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We need fruit pickers.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I would go as far as to say we have an obligation, more so than any other nation on the planet.

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Sins of our fathers. Carries no obligation.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Anyone who opposes this I would assume is racist.

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I don't oppose it if it's applied universally to all peoples of all nations. If it isn't, then that is racist.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Anyone who opposes [treating people differently based on where they're from] I would assume is racist.

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I would assume coming to this conclusion requires some mental acrobatics.

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We need fruit pickers.

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We do. We're perfectly capable of doing this, and if we don't, then we deserve excessive prices.

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Sins of our fathers. Carries no obligation.

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Not quite. We're talking about a territory we handed over in 1997, with caveats, such as continued autonomy for I think 50 years. China appear to be reneging on this agreement. We have an obligation, not because of our history, but because of a contract we essentially have with the Hong Kong people now, at this time.

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I don't oppose it if it's applied universally to all peoples of all nations. If it isn't, then that is racist.

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We don't have room for all people of all nations, nor do we have an obligation. Even still, it's not racist or xenophobic at all to say certain people don't have the same immigration rights as others. That kind of policy is going on all around the world, it's standard. For example, Australia and New Zealand share benefits for each other that others don't enjoy. Is that xenophobic? It's not racist because I'm white and I don't enjoy the same advantages as Australians when it comes to migrating to NZ. Nor is it xenophobic, since I am allowed to NZ, provided I meet certain criteria (which incidentally I don't because I'm useless to them).

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

I would assume coming to this conclusion requires some mental acrobatics.

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I tried to leave it alone in poop's post, but you've done exactly the same thing.

Racism and xenophobia are not the same thing. If I discriminate against someone because of where they are from, I have not been racist. I have been xenophobic.

But read my post to poop, and the same applies. People are treated differently, it's standard immigration policy. Can I move to Israel? I can if I'm a Jew. But I'm not. Can I move to USA? It's be easier if I were Canadian. This isn't xenophobia, it's reciprocal immigration policies that benefit the nations in question.

I imagine that Sweden has more favourable immigration policies towards the people of Denmark, Norway, Finland and Iceland than it does any other nations. Are Sweden being racist?

I feel like you guys, if in charge of immigration, would basically say "we can accept x a year" and start picking names out of a hat. That's totally fair. But it's not optimal. Why should I be allowed to go to NZ and eat up their benefits instead of, say, a nurse? Why should NZ give us both an equal chance of success?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

We do. We're perfectly capable of doing this, and if we don't, then we deserve excessive prices.

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And we'll have to bail out the farmers. Brexit ftw.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Not quite. We're talking about a territory we handed over in 1997, with caveats, such as continued autonomy for I think 50 years. China appear to be reneging on this agreement. We have an obligation, not because of our history, but because of a contract we essentially have with the Hong Kong people now, at this time.

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Not really. Our deal was with China, not HK. Anything we do for HK is to assauge national guilt, which we shouldn't have because none of us were alive when we borrowed HK from the Chinese.

And if we'e going to start adopting immigration policies based on national guilt, we've got some work to do in the Caribbean, Africa, and other parts of Asia before we get to HK.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

We don't have room for all people of all nations, nor do we have an obligation. Even still, it's not racist or xenophobic at all to say certain people don't have the same immigration rights as others. That kind of policy is going on all around the world, it's standard. For example, Australia and New Zealand share benefits for each other that others don't enjoy. Is that xenophobic? It's not racist because I'm white and I don't enjoy the same advantages as Australians when it comes to migrating to NZ. Nor is it xenophobic, since I am allowed to NZ, provided I meet certain criteria (which incidentally I don't because I'm useless to them).

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Just because other countries have prejudicial immigration policies doesn't give us the right to have them too.

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And we'll have to bail out the farmers. Brexit ftw.

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Things were much simpler when the EU basically paid our farms to have empty fields.

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Not really. Our deal was with China, not HK

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I'm extremely surprised you're taking this position. The contract might be with China, but the obligation is with the people of Hong Kong, since we ruled them and have now handed power over to another party, one they don't trust as much as they trust us.

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Anything we do for HK is to assauge national guilt, which we shouldn't have because none of us were alive when we borrowed HK from the Chinese.

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I was, and unless you're under the age of 23, then you were too. The colonial "crime" of "borrowing" HK from China was still being committed during both of our lives.

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And if we'e going to start adopting immigration policies based on national guilt, we've got some work to do in the Caribbean, Africa, and other parts of Asia before we get to HK.

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It's not a policy based on national guilt, it's a policy based on current treaties and agreements.

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Just because other countries have prejudicial immigration policies doesn't give us the right to have them too.

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It's astonishing that you actually think everyone from every nation should be treated equally when it comes to a nation's immigration policy. It's a deranged policy that puts equality above all over factors, such as economic usefulness, criminal history, cultural compatibility (religion and language), quality of education, standard of living (people used to lawless environments are harder to integrate)... people are not equal, no matter how nice it would be if we were. I am not the equal of a nurse, I should not have the same immigration rights as a nurse. Do you think I should have the same immigration rights as a nurse?

Once we've established I am not the equal of a nurse, we recognise that economic discrimination is perfectly fair. So let's look at cultural discrimination. Is that fair?

Should Mexico treat me as the equal of a Spanish person? I can't speak Spanish, so it would be harder for me to settle. Why should Mexico take me instead of a Spanish person? Why should I be treated equally?

Is religious discrimination fair? Let's say I want to move to UAE, and so does an equally qualified Saudi. The Saudi is a Muslim and will be much more aware of local customs and sensitivities than I will. The Saudi is more likely to become a valuable member of the community than I am. Should we still be treated as equals?

Let's say I own a house and I'm struggling to pay the bills, so I bring in a lodger. I am obviously going to want someone I can live with. I am going to be interviewing people and basically discriminating... if they listen to Coldplay, they can fuck off, if they don't speak English, they can fuck off, if it's 40-stone woman, she can fuck off, if he talks too quietly so I have to keep asking him to repeat himself, he can fuck off. Discrimination is part of everyday life, it's how we form friendships. A world without discrimination is a world where your friends are randomly selected, so is your wife, so is the town you choose to live in, so is the car you drive, all your decisions are basically randed to ensure there is no prejudice involved, because as soon as you start making decisions based on preference, you are discriminating.

Meanwhile in 'Murica, cops are taking Trump's whole "The press is the enemy of the people" thing both literally and seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im0l3HuYgNw

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

https://i.imgur.com/6RJLbrV.png

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Good boy!

[enter meme of deranged left winger on a chess board as a pawn here]

The right to not be murdered is absolute, thus it is not a privilege.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I tried to leave it alone in poop's post, but you've done exactly the same thing.

Racism and xenophobia are not the same thing. If I discriminate against someone because of where they are from, I have not been racist. I have been xenophobic.

But read my post to poop, and the same applies. People are treated differently, it's standard immigration policy. Can I move to Israel? I can if I'm a Jew. But I'm not. Can I move to USA? It's be easier if I were Canadian. This isn't xenophobia, it's reciprocal immigration policies that benefit the nations in question.

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It's one thing to have restrictions on e.g. immigration based on nationality. It's a whole another thing to say those that oppose them are racist.

Edit: Just to make it perfectly clear, I didn't say anything about anyone being racist. You said people opposing nationality based restrictions are racist.

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It's one thing to have restrictions on e.g. immigration based on nationality. It's a whole another thing to say those that oppose them are racist.

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I guess the point I was making is that many of the reasons a lot of people oppose immigration do not apply to Hong Kongers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

[enter meme of deranged left winger on a chess board as a pawn here]

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I for one am sick of being used by people who care about racial discrimination to push their agenda of equal treatment under the law.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

I for one am sick of being used by people who care about racial discrimination to push their agenda of equal treatment under the law.

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Nc6

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

durrrrr I'm a troll

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fyp

I can definitely be a troll, but I don't take positions that are opposite to my real views. Not here, anyway. I did suck some guy into a discussion about flat earth on Twitter, asking him to explain gravity and then mocking his poor attempt at doing so. I'm not all that good at true trolling though, I mean I lost him when I told him the planets were CGI images on the dome, shortly after correctly explaining why the moon was drifting away because his explanation was wrong. I'm too obviously a troll. Still amuses me though.

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I for one am sick of being used by people who care about racial discrimination to push their agenda of equal treatment under the law.

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My counter to this is basically that this is not what is really happening, rather your anti-racist emotions are being used to manipulate you into supporting a political agenda, which is not equality like you think, but is rather social division.

But maybe I'm just being paranoid. Maybe there are people in power who actually want equality, even though it was inequality that got them into power in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

My counter to this is basically that this is not what is really happening, rather your anti-racist emotions are being used to manipulate you into supporting a political agenda, which is not equality like you think, but is rather social division.

But maybe I'm just being paranoid. Maybe there are people in power who actually want equality, even though it was inequality that got them into power in the first place.

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If people like me are being manipulated into thinking Trump is bad for equality and almost anyone else would be better than he, then I'm a monkey's bollocks. All you have to do is look at his behaviour and clearly he's having bad influence on things.

You keep bringing up social division but there's a simple fix to that: It's the existence of inequalities that create social division, not the attempts to fix those inequalities, peaceful or otherwise. Treat everyone the same and they'll all feel like a part of the same community. Have you thought of that?