Let's talk about the impending apocalypse for a bit.

It is, you dumbass.

Make a more accurate one, you all knowing monk.

I ain't never met 1 single muslim that was greater than bar > me.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Make a more accurate one, you all knowing monk.

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sure, me > you

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I ain't never met 1 single muslim that was greater than bar > me.

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I don't understand.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

I don't understand.

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I'm better than all muslims.

TIL Rilla tops the SJW Hierarchy of Important Oppressed Peoples.

dunno what that is, but so long as I'm on top, lets go!

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And then those are coming to me and saying it was a long time coming...

Gonna be a long time still before any of us gets where we want to go...

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I mean that I am surprised some shit like this hasn't happened sooner.

It's a long time coming, as in: I see the current events which seem to have triggered this thing about ambushing cops as nothing new. Therefore, the recent events seem more like a proverbial straw that broke the camel's back than a new outrage at a newly perceived offense.

I don't see why anyone attaches a judgement connotation to that statement, but I meant none at all, and I did my best to plainly spell out that I don't see this as a good turn of events.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

We ain't logcal, we're human. And in the cadence of human speech, but frequently negates what becomes before it.

When you throw out platitudes for 'the other side' then sweep them together with "but", only then do you make your point.

You were trying to defend your position by placating those that might disagree with you, then you pivoted to your actual point - that you understand why cops were being shot.

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The whole thing is my point. Don't cherry pick some portions to be placating, while others are for realz. The "placating" points are there to make it clear that I'm not saying this turn of events is a good thing. I'm only hypothesizing a common motivation for 2 similar events in different states. I am seeking understanding, not seeking to condone.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Well, then, yeah!

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You're the best, man... you know that, right?


I love when you make a point because it's always a humbling experience to hear your thoughts when you're on your game.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Black people outside of the south by large live in inner cities. Much of the culture has embraced the term "ghetto." Lots of whites live in trailers in suburban and rural situations. They decided to call some of these parks and largely embraced the terminology.



Statistically, the risk banks have in loans to blacks is higher. However, I would be VERY surprised if this held true when all else is equal. In fact, I would expect a suburban black with job and a family to have an easier time of getting a loan than an equivalent white. The government did the best it could to create the housing crisis by pushing this anyways.



Being racist doesn't pay. What pays is doing stuff to "help" black people, to make yourself seem as anti-racist as possible. There are other better explanations for the intrinsic unfairness of the world. Additionally, the "legacy of racism" doesn't play. Blacks performed much better on the most important metrics a long time ago, back when racism was a big thing compared to today. The best example experts have been able come up with for the trigger that started the falling apart for blacks is welfare.



As for Clinton's statement specifically, I call it intensely racist since the cops were killed for explicitly racist reasons and Clinton's response is to implicitly sanction that.

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If you're trying to tell me that institutionalized racism is a myth, then I can only conclude that you have decided this to be the case w/o looking in to the matter. I assumed the same before I took the course. I learned a lot and I'm not going to attempt to tell you to "trust me" about any of it, so I'm not going to press any points. Needless to say, nothing I've quoted here has changed my opinions on the matter. You may as well tell me that electrons don't exist. Sorry, bro, but mine own eyes have observed. It'll take more than your word to change my mind.

Being racist doesn't need to have actual value, it has perceived value. My friend wuf told me that is the only kind of value that makes a person ever do anything and no person ever does anything for any other reason. (or I misunderstood him, which does happen)


The reality we observe is far more complex than any single mind can comprehend. It's very hard for us to realize that the "reality" that our brain lets us see through it's filtering system is definitely not the reality that makes it through any other brain's filtering system. As much as we think we understand the world, the bare bones fact is that we only understand what we observe and that's nowhere near the whole story.
There is no other being in the universe, past or future, which will see it from behind your eyes.
Different worlds exist all around us.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

If you're trying to tell me that institutionalized racism is a myth, then I can only conclude that you have decided this to be the case w/o looking in to the matter. I assumed the same before I took the course. I learned a lot and I'm not going to attempt to tell you to "trust me" about any of it, so I'm not going to press any points. Needless to say, nothing I've quoted here has changed my opinions on the matter. You may as well tell me that electrons don't exist. Sorry, bro, but mine own eyes have observed. It'll take more than your word to change my mind.

Being racist doesn't need to have actual value, it has perceived value. My friend wuf told me that is the only kind of value that makes a person ever do anything and no person ever does anything for any other reason. (or I misunderstood him, which does happen)


The reality we observe is far more complex than any single mind can comprehend. It's very hard for us to realize that the "reality" that our brain lets us see through it's filtering system is definitely not the reality that makes it through any other brain's filtering system. As much as we think we understand the world, the bare bones fact is that we only understand what we observe and that's nowhere near the whole story.
There is no other being in the universe, past or future, which will see it from behind your eyes.
Different worlds exist all around us.

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I used to be a hardcore believer in institutional racism.

The hypothesis is weak. Its claim of evidence is the existence of disparity of outcome, and it also claims that institutional racism is so subtle that it is hard to see. There is very little rigor in these standards.

If institutional racism was a meaningful concept, its elements would be found on a case by case basis. But investigators don't seem to find them. The idea of institutional racism is a compelling transformation spawned from white guilt.

"I'm not racist and..."

said noone never.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I'm better than all muslims.

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Change this to all male Muslims, and I won't argue the toss.

Is wuf really denying the existence of institutional racism (question mark is fucking broke and the zero so I cant close this bracket

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Is wuf really denying the existence of institutional racism (question mark is fucking broke and the zero so I cant close this bracket

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Disparity in outcomes is not racism. What is your best example of institutional racism?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Is wuf really denying the existence of institutional racism (question mark is fucking broke and the zero so I cant close this bracket

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Seems so.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Disparity in outcomes is not racism. What is your best example of institutional racism?

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How about "The New Deal"

It was a federal program which allowed the banks to continue their practice of labeling predominantly black neighborhoods as "high likelihood of default" and to summarily refuse loans for anyone living in those neighborhoods. It disproportionately funneled money into white families, allowing them to buy homes in new suburbs and send their children to college. The legacy of this is far from dead. Many of those white kids are still working professional careers which they only have because their parents could get loans.

It is not wholly relevant if the policy has ended, because the legacy lives on and continues to alter the economic landscape of America. It is good that the policy has ended, but time has not erased the results.

One mistake I've made is not acknowledging that literal institutional racism does exist, but explicitly against whites (and Asians). This includes the literal institution of affirmative action. This is racism that hurts everybody. It does things like misplacing some people into universities that are above their skill level (and they do poorly or flunk) while displacing others who are fit for those universities.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

How about "The New Deal"

It was a federal program which allowed the banks to continue their practice of labeling predominantly black neighborhoods as "high likelihood of default" and to summarily refuse loans for anyone living in those neighborhoods. It disproportionately funneled money into white families, allowing them to buy homes in new suburbs and send their children to college. The legacy of this is far from dead. Many of those white kids are still working professional careers which they only have because their parents could get loans.

It is not wholly relevant if the policy has ended, because the legacy lives on and continues to alter the economic landscape of America. It is good that the policy has ended, but time has not erased the results.

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You'll get no argument from me about literal institutional racism (meaning racism by institution by government mandates and/or incentives). Perhaps I mistook the meaning of the phrase you were using. Its common definition as thrown about on the internet is very loosely based on the sociology form of the phrase, which isn't necessarily about literal institutions. It's stuff like "White people don't buy phones when pictured with black hands at the same rate they do white hands. Institutional racism!"

But, yes, you're right. The government is very racist. Fuck the government and its racism. I couldn't agree with you more. :winkface

If you read the wiki on institutional racism, it's a mess. The first paragraph says that it's hard to see. No, literal institutional racism is not hard to see whatsoever. All it takes is law involving the government's differential treatment by race.

LOL wow.

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"When white terrorists bomb a black church and kill five black children, that is an act of individual racism, widely deplored by most segments of the society. But when in that same city--Birmingham, Alabama--five hundred black babies die each year because of the lack of power, food, shelter and medical facilities, and thousands more are destroyed and maimed physically, emotionally and intellectually because of conditions of poverty and discrimination in the black community, that is a function of institutional racism. When a black family moves into a home in a white neighborhood and is stoned, burned or routed out, they are victims of an overt act of individual racism which many people will condemn--at least in words. But it is institutional racism that keeps black people locked in dilapidated slum tenements, subject to the daily prey of exploitative slumlords, merchants, loan sharks and discriminatory real estate agents. The society either pretends it does not know of this latter situation, or is in fact incapable of doing anything meaningful about it."

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Talk about disastrously bad reasoning.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Disparity in outcomes is not racism. What is your best example of institutional racism?

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https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...rime-minister/

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...rime-minister/

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It was my mistake to suggest that the literal institutional racism of literal government institutions doesn't exist.

Also, this shit happens to whites too. Nobody seems to care though so the media doesn't care.

Sorry wrong article...

this is the one I meant...

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...-now-official/

What's the point?

The UK doesnt charge white people with terrorism.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

The UK doesnt charge white people with terrorism.

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That's racism if you can show that the charges were unfounded and the investigators or prosecutors didn't care and instead they based it on his race.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

That's racism if you can show that the charges were unfounded and the investigators or prosecutors didn't care and instead they based it on his race.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30247980

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...anchester-bomb

Note the BBC article doesnt even tell us what he was actually charged with, in an effort to obscure the institutional racism at work here. The BBC is, of course, the closest thing we have to state controlled media. Only they pretend to be unbiased. Hilarious.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-24675040

Holy fuck they told us he got charged with murder instead of trying to keep it a secret.

Anyway, this is terrorism when the defendant is a Muslim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom

Not the best article seeing as it only goes to 2006 but take a look at the names and see if you notice a theme...

Anyway, terrorism is the perfect example of institutional racism in the world today. White people are not terrorists, they are murderers.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom

Not the best article seeing as it only goes to 2006 but take a look at the names and see if you notice a theme...

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You're listening to the wrong ideas.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

You're listening to the wrong ideas.

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Oh.

Yep.

Forgive me, I thought I was tasked with demonstrating that institutional racism exists. Have I failed?

Yes. You're showing something that is not racism but disparate outcomes based on arbitrary standards.

So most terrorists are Muslims. Charging more Muslims with terrorism does not signify racism of any sort. However, if you could find that the institutions standards for charging were different from different races, then yes you would have institutional racism. It would be racism by an institution. The weaksauce common usage of "institutional racism" on the internet is one where there isn't racism in the first place.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Yes. You're showing something that is not racism but disparate outcomes based on arbitrary standards.

So most terrorists are Muslims. Charging more Muslims with terrorism does not signify racism of any sort. However, if you could find that the institutions standards for charging were different from different races, then yes you would have institutional racism. It would be racism by an institution. The weaksauce common usage of "institutional racism" on the internet is one where there isn't racism in the first place.

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That isn't what he's talking about at all. The UK media (& I imagine the US is worse) really has confined the word terrorist to mean muslims. Other terrorist attacks carried out by christians or whoever else it may be don't get called terrorist attacks & the people committing them certainly aren't branded terrorists.

It doesn't fit the narrative. Although the trouble in Ireland has obviously died down a lot in my lifetime any events over there are never called terrorism in the news.

Sounds like bad reporting and racism.

This is what I'm talking about when I denigrate the idea of institutional racism:

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Institutional racism is the differential access to the goods, services, and opportunities of society. When the differential access becomes integral to institutions, it becomes common practice, making it difficult to rectify. Eventually, this racism dominates public bodies, private corporations, public and private universities, and is reinforced by the actions of conformists and newcomers. Another difficulty in reducing institutionalized racism is that there is no sole, true identifiable perpetrator. When racism is built into the institution, it emerges as the collective action of the population.

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It's a bullshit idea of racism existing without racism.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

This is what I'm talking about when I denigrate the idea of institutional racism:

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Institutional racism is the differential access to the goods, services, and opportunities of society. When the differential access becomes integral to institutions, it becomes common practice, making it difficult to rectify. Eventually, this racism dominates public bodies, private corporations, public and private universities, and is reinforced by the actions of conformists and newcomers. Another difficulty in reducing institutionalized racism is that there is no sole, true identifiable perpetrator. When racism is built into the institution, it emerges as the collective action of the population.

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Oh. Not this?

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

All it takes is law involving the government's differential treatment by race.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Yes. You're showing something that is not racism but disparate outcomes based on arbitrary standards.

So most terrorists are Muslims. Charging more Muslims with terrorism does not signify racism of any sort. However, if you could find that the institutions standards for charging were different from different races, then yes you would have institutional racism. It would be racism by an institution. The weaksauce common usage of "institutional racism" on the internet is one where there isn't racism in the first place.

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Not "most" terroists... "all".

Not since the IRA days have we had a white terrorist. Thanks savy for reminding me of them. But yeah, they are no longer referred to as terrorists.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Oh. Not this?

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Yes, not that. I clarified earlier. People use "institutional racism" to mean two different things. One is literal racism by literal institutions. That's a real thing. The other is some froo froo make-believe "oh you'll see it if you look hard enough because everybody knows that disparity=racism" flim flam.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/omar-a...b_8718000.html

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Yes, not that. I clarified earlier. People use "institutional racism" to mean two different things. One is literal racism by literal institutions. That's a real thing. The other is some froo froo make-believe "oh you'll see it if you look hard enough because everybody knows that disparity=racism" flim flam.

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Yes, but charging Muslims with terrorism, and non Muslims with murder, for similar offences, is not make believe "you'll see it if you try hard enough" racism. I'm a little confused why you don't recognise this for what it is.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Yes, but charging Muslims with terrorism, and non Muslims with murder, for similar offences, is not make believe "you'll see it if you try hard enough" racism. I'm a little confused why you don't recognise this for what it is.

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Sounds like it's an abuse by employees of an institution (at the very least) based on race. I have no problem calling that institutional racism.

The phrase is used to mean two totally different things. I thought you were getting at the other ridiculous meaning.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Sounds like it's an abuse by employees of an institution (at the very least) based on race. I have no problem calling that institutional racism.

The phrase is used to mean two totally different things. I thought you were getting at the other ridiculous meaning.

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No, it is a matter of policy, it is insufficient to argue this is rogue employees of the state.

We just had a white dude kill a serving MP. He had links to a neo Nazi group. He was a far right extremist. He got charged with murder.

This is not rogue employees were talking of here. This is rogue policy.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

No, it is a matter of policy, it is insufficient to argue this is rogue employees of the state.

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Even clearer institutional racism. Why didn't you just say that the government policy on this issue is racist?

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Even clearer institutional racism. Why didn't you just say that the government policy on this issue is racist?

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um... sorry it wasn't as obvious as I thought it was that's what I was getting at.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

How about "The New Deal"

It was a federal program which allowed the banks to continue their practice of labeling predominantly black neighborhoods as "high likelihood of default" and to summarily refuse loans for anyone living in those neighborhoods. It disproportionately funneled money into white families, allowing them to buy homes in new suburbs and send their children to college. The legacy of this is far from dead. Many of those white kids are still working professional careers which they only have because their parents could get loans.

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It's called negotiating.