Another diet question (dairy free)

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Originally Posted by kiwiMark

Bet you do! They're allowed a surprising number of insect parts per hundred in herbs and other stuff without having to make mention of it

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I'll just own that hypocrisy and leave the cognitive dissonance to

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kiwiMark,...

Also, I'd just like to add that no one here has claimed to be a nutritionist, and, even if they had, they would know the nutritional needs of every person are different. Sometimes those differences are subtle, and sometimes they are stark. What anyone's nutritional requirements are on any given day (or even time of day) is going to vary by the activities they perform, microbes they come in contact with, and environment in which they spend their time (at a bare minimum).

No one knows what the "perfect" diet is (especially for someone they've never met), and in various cultures around the globe, nutrients are gotten from various sources. It strikes me that even if there were a fundamentally correct nutrient intake, the source of those nutrients would still be optional.

For me, this thread is interesting when it's about people asking scientific questions about themselves, and then designing and performing an experiment to gather data and form conclusions. This thread is not interesting (borderline combative, even) when the word hypocrite* gets thrown around or when someone is trying to suggest they know what is "right" for someone else to eat.

*Yes, I made a joke using the word hypocrite, and I repeated it here, to make it easy to point out that my use was both directed at myself and made in jest.

I contest that my penis is right for someone else to eat

For what is worth in not claiming to be a nutritionist either. I'm glad I'm not because I personally think most are as bad as doctors. They follow old ideas, nutritional dogmas that's are more hearsay than based in scientific truth and are just plain wrong in most cases. I'm glad I'm not trained like this. It allows me to follow the science, and have many ideas to change a person's personal nutritional habits for the better.

As for cheese and Whey. I basically said it in jest. I love cheese and I like the idea of what Whey And milk proteins can do for manipulation of just protein calories in a diet. There isn't much in the way of low fat, low carb, complete proteins in the world and have the versatility of being in a shake or solids

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Originally Posted by agnesamurphy

Singling out one nutrient deficiency doesn't automatically discount the entire diet, just like singling out a component to a solution's problem doesn't automatically discount the solution.

Sources: http://news.menshealth.com/magnesium...cy/2012/03/28/
http://www.sundrops.com/2012/supplem...-american-diet

Therefore, there's no one way to eat right, or to get certain nutrients, or to have a health-conscious diet. Just like there isn't one way to get osteoporosis, or to prevent it. I'm not hoping for a one way to cure osteoporosis, or a one way to get protein, or to get calcium, or saying that there should be one way. I'm thinking about these ways differently, asking and presenting information to consider if there's another way or a better way. I'm wondering if the way most people do things, or what's considered, is the best way.

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so you then single out another mineral that most people are deficient in (with the reference kindly supplied by a supplement supplier) yet you overlook the following

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Dairy Products. Dairy product such as milk and yogurt are not only high in calcium, the calcium they contain is extremely well-absorbed. Dairy products are also good sources of magnesium and phosphorus and most are fortified with vitamin D. All of these help your body make the best use of calcium. Each eight ounce serving of milk or yogurt contains about ¼ to 1/3 of your daily calcium needs.

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so not only are they high in calcium , but they also provide the magnesium you also say is deficient in most US diets.Also , they are readily absorbed into the body.

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Originally Posted by Keith

so not only are they high in calcium , but they also provide the magnesium you also say is deficient in most US diets.Also , they are readily absorbed into the body.

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If so, then why is there a magnesium deficiency? Is Men's Health making this up? Has it been fixed since the article was released? Is the country not drinking enough milk? Is something going on that's leaching magnesium from out bodies faster than we can take it in?

This also doesn't illustrate why leafy greens and soy products aren't good alternatives as calcium sources. Is their calcium not absorbed as readily? Is their calcium somehow different? Do leafy greens and soy products not help out body make the best use of calcium?

Milk's not the only way. It's a way that a lot of people take and a lot of people like. There are other ways to get magnesium and calcium and other nutrients. I personally think those others ways are better because they don't have the amount of fat and calories that milk has. I also think those other ways aren't given the same amount of credibility, consideration, or trial the way milk has. I am just showcasing those others ways and trying to give those other ways the credibility, consideration, and trial.

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Originally Posted by Keith

I think its a great post and highlights the difference between you and Agnes. You have made an ethical choice and accept the any dietary deficiencies as a result of that post. Agnes has made an ethical choice as well but has chosen to fight against people who don't share her views by misrepresenting information and trying to force her ethical choice onto others regardless of whether it is good or bad for their health.

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I don't think I've imposed any position upon anybody, and perhaps that's a matter of opinion. I've never said any particular person is doing something wrong or ought to do something the way I'm doing it or is valuing something that is incorrect or abhorrent. This whole discussion of protein, milk, and veganism started when I offered a way to get protein that's not a mainstream way to do it and I defended my suggestion.

I've also never used the word 'you' in the context of framing my arguments or in directing my arguments toward a particular person or people. I've only used it to reply to one person about a sentence or comment. My arguments were never constructed to be personally directed or to showcase a specific person in a negative light.

I've made a lifestyle choice that has worked well for me and I believe in it. It's not a lifestyle choice that a lot of folks are making or think is a great choice. Just because I believe in it and am arguing strongly for it doesn't mean that it's an imposition. I'm passionate about this choice and this lifestyle. It is, inherently, a value choice and I don't think I've done any imposing by sharing, defending, and arguing in favor this value.

All I've presented is another way to think about these choices and other perspectives to consider and defended these choices and perspectives. I'm not trying to convert anyone to veganism and my goal here isn't to evangelize and to convert.

If my presentation is considered a misrepresentation, then I'd be happy to clear things up and to present what needs to be presented so there's no doubt that I'm sharing something legitimate.

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Originally Posted by agnesamurphy

This also doesn't illustrate why leafy greens and soy products aren't good alternatives as calcium sources. Is their calcium not absorbed as readily? Is their calcium somehow different? Do leafy greens and soy products not help out body make the best use of calcium?

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Leafy greens, very healthy. Soy? Not so much. If you need a primer, here's a page I just found off google: http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.c...-in-your-diet/.

Have you read anything about the phytoestrogens in soy and their effects on both men and women?

Edit: that first page was just a 10 reason starter from this more expansive, 170-reason list: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-aler...of-isoflavones. Happy reading.

I haven't read about this at all, but it's worth considering. I had to do some additional research to find out what an 'isoflavone' and a 'phytoestrogen' is. I wish the long list included links to some of those studies, just to see how they were conducted, with how many people, and how often the studies have been cited in other studies.

It also looks like unfermented soy products are the problem, while fermented soy is okay (and it has to be fermented a certain way too). The trouble is then figuring out whether or not your getting fermented soy or unfermented soy. Even the Weston Price foundation (the one who came out with the 170-point list), makes this distinction.

Here's an excellent showcase of both sides of whether soy is healthful or not. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1823052.html

That same Weston Price foundation also does a good roundup of myths and truths with soy. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...ummarized.aspx

If one were to have whey isolate would it still be considered dairy? Basically what I'm asking is based around dairy causing energy, congestion and skin issues of various kinds. I know whey is derived from dairy but I'm just curious if eliminating the lactose will avoid the issues. I guess it's kind of a broad/unfocused question but definitely looking for some insight. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by agnesamurphy

If so, then why is there a magnesium deficiency? Is Men's Health making this up? Has it been fixed since the article was released? Is the country not drinking enough milk? Is something going on that's leaching magnesium from out bodies faster than we can take it in?

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Where have you shown that the milk drinkers have the magnesium deficiency and that they aren't benefitting from drinking the milk or shown that vegans have much lower magnesium defiency . You haven't .

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This also doesn't illustrate why leafy greens and soy products aren't good alternatives as calcium sources. Is their calcium not absorbed as readily? Is their calcium somehow different? Do leafy greens and soy products not help out body make the best use of calcium?

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erm

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Mineral Bioavailability

The degree to which the amount of an ingested nutrient is absorbed and available to the body is called bioavailability. Mineral bioavailability depends on several factors. Higher absorption occurs among individuals who are deficient in a mineral, while some elements in the diet (e.g., oxalic acid or oxalate in spinach) can decrease mineral availability by chemically binding to the mineral. In addition, excess intake of one mineral can influence the absorption and metabolism of other minerals. For example, the presence of a large amount of zinc in the diet decreases the absorption of iron and copper. On the other hand, the presence of vitamins in a meal enhances the absorption of minerals in the meal. For example, vitamin C improves iron absorption, and vitamin D aids in the absorption of calcium, phosphorous, and magnesium.
In general, minerals from animal sources are absorbed better than those from plant sources as minerals are present in forms that are readily absorbed and binders that inhibit absorption, such as phytates , are absent. Vegans (those who restrict their diets to plant foods) need to be aware of the factors affecting mineral bioavailability. Careful meal planning is necessary to include foods rich in minerals and absorption-enhancing factors.


Read more: http://www.faqs.org/nutrition/Met-Obe/Minerals.html#ixzz2PLcAHTe2

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So no , plant sources of calcium and magnesium are not absorbed as efficiently as animal sources , and the vitamin d dissolved in the milk fat will promote that absorbtion. DRinking skimmed and semi skimmed milk is therefore less efficient at absorbing the minerals.

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Milk's not the only way. It's a way that a lot of people take and a lot of people like. There are other ways to get magnesium and calcium and other nutrients. I personally think those others ways are better because they don't have the amount of fat and calories that milk has. I also think those other ways aren't given the same amount of credibility, consideration, or trial the way milk has. I am just showcasing those others ways and trying to give those other ways the credibility, consideration, and trial.

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no you aren't , you are using your ethical standpoint to bias your opinion and ignore the evidence. Right from the begining when you said that milk has no nutritional value.Calcium from milk products is more readily absorbed than plant sources and the calories in the fat that you are so worried about can be balanced within the rest of a balanced diet.

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I don't think I've imposed any position upon anybody, and perhaps that's a matter of opinion. I've never said any particular person is doing something wrong or ought to do something the way I'm doing it or is valuing something that is incorrect or abhorrent. This whole discussion of protein, milk, and veganism started when I offered a way to get protein that's not a mainstream way to do it and I defended my suggestion.

I've also never used the word 'you' in the context of framing my arguments or in directing my arguments toward a particular person or people. I've only used it to reply to one person about a sentence or comment. My arguments were never constructed to be personally directed or to showcase a specific person in a negative light.

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well its fairly obvious that all the points that i am making is in direct rebuttal of the misleading information that you keep bringing into the thread.I'm not portraying you in a negative light , just showing where what you are saying is misleading.

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I've made a lifestyle choice that has worked well for me and I believe in it. It's not a lifestyle choice that a lot of folks are making or think is a great choice. Just because I believe in it and am arguing strongly for it doesn't mean that it's an imposition. I'm passionate about this choice and this lifestyle. It is, inherently, a value choice and I don't think I've done any imposing by sharing, defending, and arguing in favor this value.

All I've presented is another way to think about these choices and other perspectives to consider and defended these choices and perspectives. I'm not trying to convert anyone to veganism and my goal here isn't to evangelize and to convert.

If my presentation is considered a misrepresentation, then I'd be happy to clear things up and to present what needs to be presented so there's no doubt that I'm sharing something legitimate.

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Rubbish, you have every right to choose whatever lifestyle that you want, but give everyone else the same opportunity. Stop pushing all the BS you keep coming out with that is just vegan propaganda. You keep blaming all the bad stuff on milk with no proof whatsoever to back up your claims and i keep showing where your claims are wrong. How many people have cut their animal product consumption because of your propaganda and them not knowing where to look to verify/disprove your claims. Maybe , you ought to check out the link between veganism and alzheimers as well.

I believe in a balanced diet with food from all food group sources.If people have intolerances to certain food groups from whatever source then its obvious that they should try and minimize their exposure.

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Originally Posted by agnes post #21

Yes, I am vegan, and I have zero protein problems.

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are you still happy with that statement now that you have learnt more about soya?.

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Originally Posted by dthorne

If one were to have whey isolate would it still be considered dairy? Basically what I'm asking is based around dairy causing energy, congestion and skin issues of various kinds. I know whey is derived from dairy but I'm just curious if eliminating the lactose will avoid the issues. I guess it's kind of a broad/unfocused question but definitely looking for some insight. Thanks.

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The vitamin B12 comments i posted earlier in the thread showed that deficiency can cause fatigue, and skin problems amongst other symptoms. It may be possible that by cutting out her dairy intake Courtie may have been swapping symptoms due to lactose intolerances with symptoms caused by the resulting lack of B12 . I have a vague recollection reading somewhere that people with asian ethnicity are more likely to lack the lactase gene and suffer from lactose intolerance. It may well be worth her getting her B12 blood levels checked

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Originally Posted by agnesamurphy

However, the steak has saturated fat. The lentils don't. Beans are also an excellent source of fiber, copper, phosphorus, manganese and magnesium. The steak doesn't have any of those things. One might need more beans to fulfill the daily requirement of protein, but one is also getting a lot of other things s/he do need and none of the saturated fat s/he doesn't need. This blows the macronutrient argument out of the water.

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This is a comment that also had me intrigued. I don't know that i can speak for all meat eaters, but i'm pretty damn sure that when most people have steak that they also have veg with with it and some of those veg will be beans. So its irrelevent that the steak may have low levels of manganese etc becuse we get our intake from the vegetable we eat with the steak.

The other mind blowing comment that you have come out with is that you had to say that steak has saturated fat as if its a bad thing . Have you actually researched it or is it yet another piece of BS vegan propaganda that you are happy to ignorantly push out to anyone who will listen to you.
Try reading http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...ated-fat1.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...ated-fat2.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...ated-fat3.aspx

Essentially it shows that the evidence contradicts the popular myths and agrees with observations of dietary and health trends. At the start of the last century , saturated fat consumption was high and coronary heart disease and cancer levels were low. As the century progressed , unsaturated fats replaced saturated fats in the diet and heart disease and cancers rates continually increased and correlated with dietary unsaturated fat consumption.

from the second article

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The Benefits Of Saturated Fats

The much-maligned saturated fats-which Americans are trying to avoid-are not the cause of our modern diseases. In fact, they play many important roles in the body chemistry:

• Saturated fatty acids constitute at least 50% of the cell membranes. They are what gives our cells necessary stiffness and integrity.
• They play a vital role in the health of our bones. For calcium to be effectively incorporated into the skeletal structure, at least 50% of the dietary fats should be saturated.38
• They lower Lp(a), a substance in the blood that indicates proneness to heart disease.39 They protect the liver from alcohol and other toxins, such as Tylenol.40
• They enhance the immune system.41
• They are needed for the proper utilization of essential fatty acids. Elongated omega-3 fatty acids are better retained in the tissues when the diet is rich in saturated fats. 42
• Saturated 18-carbon stearic acid and 16-carbon palmitic acid are the preferred foods for the heart, which is why the fat around the heart muscle is highly saturated.43 The heart draws on this reserve of fat in times of stress.
• Short- and medium-chain saturated fatty acids have important antimicrobial properties. They protect us against harmful microorganisms in the digestive tract.

The scientific evidence, honestly evaluated, does not support the assertion that "artery-clogging" saturated fats cause heart disease.44 Actually, evaluation of the fat in artery clogs reveals that only about 26% is saturated. The rest is unsaturated, of which more than half is polyunsaturated.45

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not only are they involded in calcium deposition , but the saturated fats anti microbial properties helping to protect the digestive tract are going to help reduce the
malabsorbtion of magnesium ,calcium caused by a damaged digestive tract.

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And what about cholesterol? Here, too, the public has been misinformed. Our blood vessels can become damaged in a number of ways-through irritations caused by free radicals or viruses, or because they are structurally weak-and when this happens, the body's natural healing substance steps in to repair the damage.

That substance is cholesterol. Cholesterol is a high-molecular-weight alcohol that is manufactured in the liver and in most human cells. Like saturated fats, the cholesterol we make and consume plays many vital roles:

• Along with saturated fats, cholesterol in the cell membrane gives our cells necessary stiffness and stability. When the diet contains an excess of polyunsaturated fatty acids, these replace saturated fatty acids in the cell membrane, so that the cell walls actually become flabby.
• When this happens, cholesterol from the blood is "driven" into the tissues to give them structural integrity. This is why serum cholesterol levels may go down temporarily when we replace saturated fats with polyunsaturated oils in the diet.46
• Cholesterol acts as a precursor to vital corticosteroids, hormones that help us deal with stress and protect the body against heart disease and cancer; and to the sex hormones like androgen, testosterone, estrogen and progesterone.
• Cholesterol is a precursor to vitamin D, a very important fat-soluble vitamin needed for healthy bones and nervous system, proper growth, mineral metabolism, muscle tone, insulin production, reproduction and immune system function.
• The bile salts are made from cholesterol. Bile is vital for digestion and assimilation of fats in the diet.
• Recent research shows that cholesterol acts as an antioxidant.47 This is the likely explanation for the fact that cholesterol levels go up with age. As an antioxidant, cholesterol protects us against free radical damage that leads to heart disease and cancer.
• Cholesterol is needed for proper function of serotonin receptors in the brain.48 Serotonin is the body's natural "feel-good" chemical. Low cholesterol levels have been linked to aggressive and violent behavior, depression and suicidal tendencies.
• Mother's milk is especially rich in cholesterol and contains a special enzyme that helps the baby utilize this nutrient. Babies and children need cholesterol-rich foods throughout their growing years to ensure proper development of the brain and nervous system.
• Dietary cholesterol plays an important role in maintaining the health of the intestinal wall.49 This is why low-cholesterol vegetarian diets can lead to leaky gut syndrome and other intestinal disorders.

Cholesterol is not the cause of heart disease but rather a potent antioxidant weapon against free radicals in the blood, and a repair substance that helps heal arterial damage (although the arterial plaques themselves contain very little cholesterol.)

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An important point there is that the one about the vegetarian diets lack of cholesterol leading to leaky gut syndrome and other intestinal disorders. How is that going to help prevent osteoporosis if the damaged intestine is less able to absorb the low availability calcium in plant sources ? Cholesterol has been shown to be a baddy in information presented to the public. As a result its antioxidant properties have been reduced and the increase in cancers has been the result.

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The Cause And Treatment Of Heart Disease
The cause of heart disease is not animal fats and cholesterol but rather a number of factors inherent in modern diets, including excess consumption of vegetables oils and hydrogenated fats; excess consumption of refined carbohydrates in the form of sugar and white flour; mineral deficiencies, particularly low levels of protective magnesium and iodine; deficiencies of vitamins, particularly of vitamin C, needed for the integrity of the blood vessel walls, and of antioxidants like selenium and vitamin E, which protect us from free radicals; and, finally, the disappearance of antimicrobial fats from the food supply, namely, animal fats and tropical oils.52
These once protected us against the kinds of viruses and bacteria that have been associated with the onset of pathogenic plaque leading to heart disease.
While serum cholesterol levels provide an inaccurate indication of future heart disease, a high level of a substance called homocysteine in the blood has been positively correlated with pathological buildup of plaque in the arteries and the tendency to form clots-a deadly combination. Folic acid, vitamin B6, vitamin B12 and choline are nutrients that lower serum homocysteine levels.53 These nutrients are found mostly in animal foods.
The best way to treat heart disease, then, is not to focus on lowering cholesterol-either by drugs or diet-but to consume a diet that provides animal foods rich in vitamins B6 and B12; to bolster thyroid function by daily use of natural sea salt, a good source of usable iodine; to avoid vitamin and mineral deficiencies that make the artery walls more prone to ruptures and the buildup of plaque; to include the antimicrobial fats in the diet; and to eliminate processed foods containing refined carbohydrates, oxidized cholesterol and free-radical-containing vegetable oils that cause the body to need constant repair.

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from the third article

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Vitamins A and D are essential for growth, for healthy bones, for proper development of the brain and nervous systems and for normal sexual development. Many studies have shown the importance of butterfat for reproduction; its absence results in "nutritional castration," the failure to bring out male and female sexual characteristics. As butter consumption in America has declined, sterility rates and problems with sexual development have increased. In calves, butter substitutes are unable to promote growth or sustain reproduction.62

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Quite widely reported in the main stream press that more men have sperm production problems combined with more IVF needed for couples to conceive.

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The Wulzen Factor: Called the "antistiffness" factor, this compound is present in raw animal fat. Researcher Rosalind Wulzen discovered that this substance protects humans and animals from calcification of the joints-degenerative arthritis.
It also protects against hardening of the arteries, cataracts and calcification of the pineal gland.63 Calves fed pasteurized milk or skim milk develop joint stiffness and do not thrive. Their symptoms are reversed when raw butterfat is added to the diet. Pasteurization destroys the Wulzen factor-it is present only in raw butter, cream and whole milk.

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The Price Factor or Activator X: Discovered by Dr. Price, Activator X is a powerful catalyst which, like vitamins A and D, helps the body absorb and utilize minerals. It is found in organ meats from grazing animals and some sea food. Butter can be an especially rich source of Activator X when it comes from cows eating rapidly growing grass in the spring and fall seasons. It disappears in cows fed cottonseed meal or high protein soy-based feeds.64 Fortunately, Activator X is not destroyed by pasteurization.

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interesting one for Daven as it will apply to NZ cows and not to US cows.

Keith, thank you. The reasons I didn't want to have this conversation is because I did not have the energy to dig up all that information. You are awesome, thank you. To show both the saturated fat argument and the cholesterol is great. I've been preaching this stuff for years.

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Originally Posted by dthorne04

If one were to have whey isolate would it still be considered dairy? Basically what I'm asking is based around dairy causing energy, congestion and skin issues of various kinds. I know whey is derived from dairy but I'm just curious if eliminating the lactose will avoid the issues. I guess it's kind of a broad/unfocused question but definitely looking for some insight. Thanks.

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it depends...
on whether the reactions to dairy are caused by lactose. For some people they are, for some they are not. See the link in my earlier post in this thread.

My manners have been poor up to this point. Shame on me. I need to follow Jyms' example and thank Keith as well.

I am thankful and appreciative for your concern for my health and well-being. We've never met, and I am grateful that you are showing me this level of love and care for someone you've never met and don't even know. If only we had more people like you in the world, people who are willing to do kind things for those they've never met and may never ever meet.

I appreciate that you are taking this time to listen, to evaluate my diet choices, the reasoning behind those choices, pointing out which ones are crap, and how crappy I am at making choices. It's taken a lot of time, and I am sure you are very busy. No one on this thread claimed to be a nutritionist, so it's great that you're taking such a strong initiative and hefty burden to figure this out and to do the legwork. No one else has done that, so once again, thank you for this hard work and dedication.

And, boy, have my choices been crappy. It's tough to admit, but man, they are crappy. It's a good thing I've been told what I need to do and what I need to think about nutrition and milk and protein and minerals. It's also a good thing that there's no possibility any of that is wrong, outdated, or false, or simply just one side of the story. I mean, golly, I've made some crappy choices and I need to stop thinking critically and asking questions and taking a different perspective. I'm obviously no good at this, and no one is asking these same questions or sharing these thoughts or taking a different perspective, so those thoughts and questions and perspectives are just plain wrong and ought to be squashed immediately.

After all, thinking and doing anything other than what the majority is doing or thinking cannot be correct or right or sensible. I am so thankful for this opportunity to choose the lifestyle I want, based on the evidence I find most credible and compelling, and to be given the opportunity to make these choices for myself. I wouldn't have been able to do that if I wasn't shown over and over again that my current lifestyle is bad and this other one is way better, with only evidence saying my current lifestyle is bad and the other one is way better. I mean, my choosing record is abysmal. I would have certainly made the wrong choice if were given two (or more) different lifestyles to choose and two (or more) sets of evidence.

That's a level of thought and care I hardly ever seen and I am so blessed to have experienced that in my life. Thank you so much for this help and support.

Where I am from, this is called aloha. It's always great when those not from Hawaii show a lot of aloha. Mahalo nui loa.

miiiight be time to tap

Unfortunately it would be disinguous for me to accept your warmest thanks in the spirit that they have been given because i truly had no concern for your health or wellbeing. Initially it was just to refute the outright lies and propaganda that you were portraying in your idyllic desciptions of your vegan lifestyle.

However the more you refused to accept the facts that i was finding to disprove your assertions the more i was learning as i did more research into the topic which was fascinating and a pleasure to learn. Having been exposed to the popular myth s that saturated fats/cholesterol are bad and that unsaturated fats are good it came as a surprise to me to find out that in fact that the reverse is in fact the truth.

Instead of being a rebel , indulging in tasty pleasures with saturated fats etc i found out that i was likely to be avoiding heart disease, avoiiding the carcinogenic unsaturated fats and cutting my chances of alzheimers in old age. So thanks for leading me to discover this information.

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Originally Posted by Keith

warmest thanks in the spirit that they have been given

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No, I really think you can accept them in the spirit they were given.

I just finished wiping the sarcasm off my desk.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I love milk and cream and cheeses and all kinds of dairy products, and I just deal with lactose intolerance, like the other 75% of adults. I am envious of that 25%, though. You bastards.

Also, it is quite obvious that milk is made for baby cows, so any health risks associated with drinking it are, LDO.

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What about human non that much of babies:

Now the thread has been derailed

I like milk, but as Devil's advocate will leave this here:

all that shrubbery goes a long-way towards making up for the massive ambiguity about what the monkeys were actually fed

Wow, a 1994 study done on monkeys about milk, and a video about humans breast feeding humans. Relevant much?

Watch it, there's more than just babies being fed. One point: breast milk is natural source of transfat like cowmilk as well.

Who fucking cares? I'm not drinking breast milk. And it has nothing to do with this thread. Have you read the whole thread?

So hard to find non vegan sources for dairy free eating. Why does everyone assume you are quitting dairy it must be for ethical reasons. Are we meatatarians not allowed to quit dairy?

Updates? Did you try no-dairy at all, jyms?

Been doing my best to avoid it. No whey, no cheese, no chocolate never milk or cream but about once in week I fuck up with something without thinking like a packaged food or something that says "may contain". There hasn't been much change in the stuffiness or the breathing and sometimes it acts up even more, so not sure if that is a loosening of phlem or what. I'm gonna give it some more time and see. I haven't taken butter out yet but I don't use it much except for some cooking,

I eliminated it completely after learning about whey in this thread. I tried vegan protein, but it tasted really awful, so now I'm using egg protein. I'd rather have whey, but it's not so bad now that I'm used to it.

My skin was on the path to improvement being dairy free for 3 weeks, but then I all of a sudden had some inflammation on Tuesday or Wednesday. I thought about when I could have had dairy and thought back to a restaurant I went to on Sunday. I had forgotten to ask whether the food we ordered had dairy in it but figured it was fine because it probably didn't. Went online to see the ingredients and read that it's usually prepared with evaporated milk. FML, dairy is everywhere.

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Originally Posted by jyms

I haven't taken butter out yet but I don't use it much except for some cooking,

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That sucks that you haven't seen any improvement. If your congestion problems are due to the milk proteins, butter might still be causing you problems (isn't butter mostly fat and protein?). Do you plan on trying to cut that out, to see if there is any improvement?

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Originally Posted by donkbee

FML, dairy is everywhere.

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If you're trying to 100% avoid dairy at restaurants, you should also ask if anything is cooked in butter (for example, side veggies). Most places will use olive oil or broth instead, if you ask.

Ya. I'm going to be even more fastidious this month and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by NightGizmo

If you're trying to 100% avoid dairy at restaurants, you should also ask if anything is cooked in butter (for example, side veggies). Most places will use olive oil or broth instead, if you ask.

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yup, been doing that. which sucks cuz i love butter!

Do restaurants up your end of the world have gluten and dairy free options marked on the menu? I feel like it's standard back home (maybe I'm way off) but I hardly see it at all over here.

They don't have dairy-free marked where I live (Vancouver Canada). Would make it so much easier if they did. Today I went to a restaurant and tried to get a burger, but they (eventually) told me that their bread had dairy in it :S They offered to wrap my hamburger patty in lettuce, sigh. I couldn't eat like 90% of their menu if I wanted to be completely dairy free, it was so tilting.

Same with America -- it's rare to find a menu with dairy-free marked. I think the problem is that most menus here only have 1 or 2 items that are dairy-free by default (if you're lucky). Everything else has cheese or a cream-based sauce in the description.