People illegally walking in the streets sounds like antagonizing the police, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
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People illegally walking in the streets sounds like antagonizing the police, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Have you been to NYC?Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
That is true, but I have yet to see any evidence that this warrants the attention this has gottenQuote:
Originally Posted by bikes
I wouldn't be surprised if they're breaking some unconstitutional laws. I mean technically if a cop forces you to block traffic, he can arrest you. That's the kind of thing that's happeningQuote:
Originally Posted by boog
The videos of the one cop with the mace the other day should have made all of this clear. Conclusive evidence of protesters doing NOTHING then a chief cop walking up, macing them (and other cops) then walking away. More than once. This is not crowd control, it's actually assault, and the guy should be put on trial. But he won't be because the banks "donate" money to his precinct
Anyways, this is levels of lol. There is no cabal of any power which could plan and execute what you're attributing to the non-99%. Only a lot of individual actors could accidentally lead to what hindsight could describe as what you're getting at. <--- totally legit sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
They're being corralled. The cops have been designating protest routes and stations, and today they entrapped them into an enclosure that couldn't hold capacity, then lo n behold traffic is magically being blocked, then lo n behold arrest all these new criminalsQuote:
Originally Posted by bigred
It's not a cabal, it's basics of centralizing power. We do know that what I said is realityQuote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
lol nope. My cabal = your centralized power.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Which is to say, even if you wanted to call it the basics (ha) of centralizing power, that would require some thing to centralize power around. And there's no cabal of any authority which could plan and execute what you're attributing to them. Only a lot of people acting essentially independently which hindsight allows for you to describe as you have above.
Central banking does manufacture recessions, among many other forms of thievery. War and oil contractors do manufacture wars, and politicians and corporate media do manufacture conflict. It's not entirely nefarious, often a chicken or egg problem, and a whole lot of it is in no way cabalistic. But it is what happensQuote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
National finance, war, energy, and a whole lot of other stuff is privatized
Yeah thats basically right. The Federal Reserve and Iraq War are excellent examples of what I mentionedQuote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I like how scientists say they broke the speed of light and they point out we have two separate clocks timing the event, timing events with two separate clocks, on a nanosecond scale is lol difficult. Our shit's probably effed. Please tell us how.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Banks do manufacture recessions? You think this recession was manufactured? You think Lehmann Bro's manufactured themselves out of existence? No, it was the Fed, then?
I'd believe Bush and Chenney and Rumsfeld manufactured war, but I'm pretty sure contractors just tried to make the best of what the gov was doing. And beyond that, Bush et al would have been making 'the best' of what was going on.
The framework of individual actors moving largely independently is more robust than all these actors moving towards some nefarious end.
This confuses me because I think I'm saying that you're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
It's because it is mostly a process of independent actions that sometimes converge because that's simply what happensQuote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
So what I'm saying is that there's no one enemy. Which sucks for the occupy wallstreet peeps. You can only say, "from our position, shit really sucks." But there's no way of saying that this or that will fix what is a clusterfuck of a problem. All this occupy wallst stuff can do is empower some politicians who we all hope have a much deeper understanding than you or I of the problem to enact a really capable solution.
lol simplyQuote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
The problems are well known IMO. Mainly private ownership of the financial system and legalized bribery of the political system. The USD isn't even a public currency. It's privately controlled, and taxpayers subsidize uncountable funds to its controllersQuote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
if i read one more "i am the 99%" i am going to punt a damn baby.
pretty sure that baby would be a 99%er
I like how wuf is making it sound like all these protesters are everyday people and not guys who just love to protest like it's a fucking hobby of theirs.
LOL
people like that don't exist in America.
There's a variety. The amount of hippies in there is actually a bit less than our picture of what got Vietnam protests going. Simply due to how things work, hippies are the most likely to protest, then young people who can't get work, then older people who've gotten laid off, that sort of thing. Some video has shown some of the protesters express concern that the hippies are even there since it paints a picture most people don't identify with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penneywize
Regardless, it's all as it should be. I'm not just saying that. The people who get hit the hardest are the ones who come out first, it's always like that. And those who have gotten hit the hardest are students, so they're the first there
Good shit, for some reason I really didn't expect that guy to be so well spoken.Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I tried not to cackle while reading that but I couldn't make it through demand #1
Note the keyword here: proposed.
I agree that a lot of that list is a bunch of hippy shit that just makes OccupyWallSt look like a socialist movement. Hopefully it gets fixed.
What's wrong with demanding stuff that should have been standard a long time ago?
Not touching this one as it's very complicated. I probably agree with the sentiments, but differ on how to enact the policyQuote:
Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
Great. Not only do the people our economic contrust designates as the winners have this, but it's a moral good, eliminates a ton of waste, and energizes the economyQuote:
demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.
Fantastic. Should have happened back when FDR wanted it. Establishment wealthy always loathes this kind of thing, also normal people don't even like the idea since they because they mistakenly believe it's a hand-out. However, this kind of thing is enormously powerful for an economy, as well as another moral imperativeQuote:
Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
Absolutely necessary. Especially now with manufacturing paradigm shift where low-skill jobs don't pay more than high-education jobs anymore. The bottom line is that a society's economic health is largely dependent upon the populace getting the education they need. Again, another moral imperative as wellQuote:
Demand four: Free college education.
This is basically right, but I don't care because global climate catastrophe will not be stoppedQuote:
Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
More of the same fantastic, royalty-class already have it, moral imperative, enormous boom to economy, etcQuote:
Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
I guess. Won't do anything to avert catastrophe like people thinkQuote:
Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.
YesQuote:
Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
Sadly, this is way above pay grade. It should happen, but it won'tQuote:
Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
We only complain about money in politics because rigged electronic machines haven't taken over the election process yet. After that happens....Quote:
Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
Excellent sentiment, but impractical. It will never happen because the primary reason rich people even exist is because of debt.Quote:
Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
Not sure what they're getting atQuote:
Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
YayQuote:
Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.
I'd love to hear how this is going to be paid for...
Wuf, why is a living wage regardless of employment a good thing?
Also, don't see anything in those demands about our foreign policy which has hands down been one of the biggest burdens on our economy.
Also, what's the deal with erasing debt and credit agencies? Sounds like a get out of jail free for people who spent above their means.
Virtually all of it pays for itself. Just not exactly immediately. But like if you want the economy to be doing better 20 years from now, infrastructure and education investments are the main ways to do it. Even if it's a lot of money now, not doing it loses a greater sum down the road. Change would need to be gradual, but we could certainly pay for it with good policy. Even up front with great policy. Keep in mind there's more wealth now than ever before. It's just that people don't wanna shareQuote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Well, first, it's just a moral imperative. But for economic reasons, it's just a fantastic investment. Poor people are an economic burden on a society.Quote:
Wuf, why is a living wage regardless of employment a good thing?
I think maybe they're trying to keep it more focused, and adding foreign policy would open the doors for everything.Quote:
Also, don't see anything in those demands about our foreign policy which has hands down been one of the biggest burdens on our economy.
I feel like this demand list legitimized people laughing at these protests.Quote:
Originally Posted by bikes
Quick poll, what would be more useful?
A) Protesting and draining savings funds, taking donations, and causing a general ruckus that will draw public sentiment but will accomplish...?
B) Don't like the people representing you? Get involved in politics and work from the bottom up. Start a real political movement.
I realize B is long and may not amount to anything but does anyone really see any sort of radical change coming from a few angry hippies camping and singing kumbaya while the rest of us go to work?
Disclaimer: The infrastructure and environment demands are fantastic.
Also, I think free education would be a great thing. The poor are double penalized for higher education by a) not being able to afford it and b) not being able to compete with other college applicants due to a myriad of constraints due to poverty.
I think your argument for a living wage is along the same lines. Maximizing human capital by digging them out of their poverty holes. I just can't shake the feeling of giving "low lifes" and other "moochers" a free ride. I'd love to see some economic predictions of how a living wage would effect the country at a macro and micro level.
I think a lot of it comes down to whether you believe people inherently want to work hard, are good people, etc and the pessimist in me cringes at the thought of a living wage.
It's actually the opposite. Our view of debt is very wrong. We see it as people spending beyond their means, but that's actually not really what happens, and the real problems of debt are much deeper economic constructs. It's very tough to nutshell, but the bottom line is that perpetual systemic debt is imposed on the massesQuote:
Originally Posted by bigred
The real "issues" here are that the thieving creditors don't want chickens to come home and roost. People don't spend beyond their means, they spend what they believe their means to be. The brainwashing is that credit cards and mortgages were as good as money and that people were investing smartly. Then that paradigm gets changed under people's feet, then lo n behold people are "spending beyond their means".
Those aren't mutually exclusive, and they're both what's being done.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
I can't believe I'm saying this (world asplodes) but can you elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Well, first off, it can be constructed in such a way that everybody gets it, no matter how rich or poor. It would also not be a whole lot. There's a big difference between making sure somebody has shelter, food, and access to education and work-capacity vs subsidizing mansions and joy ridesQuote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Also, I think we should clean up our own destructive shit before we oppress the poor even more. The amount of corporate welfare, tax giveaways, and financial tricks that the tax payers have subsidized for the uber rich are astronomically greater than anything we've done for the poor. People don't realize that they're trading helping the poor for giving the rich free blowjobs
Anyways, the evidence suggests that financial incentives for people succeeding are nothing like personal and social incentives. The whole paying for people to be lazy drags on society is just an enormous myth. In fact, there's evidence that suggests that financial incentives actually produce worse results than no financial incentive. We do stuff because we're social and proud animals, but we've been brainwashed into thinking we really do stuff because we want that dollah dollah bill yo. More like if you don't slave for the dollar, you're sleeping under the bridge, so we all do it, then there's a misfiring of understanding why we do it
lol +1Quote:
Originally Posted by bikes
in all fairness though when negotiating something its best to start with a deal that represents what U want and then shift towards what the other party wants till each is satisfied with a middle ground.
idk if the middle of this is even close to realistic tho
I'm not the best to elaborate since I think I'd have to be a Joseph Stiglitz level savvy to understand it all, but I'll make two pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by bigred
1. Currency is debt. Maybe it doesn't have to be, but ours is. The privately owned Federal Reserve prints it, inflates it, lends it at interest, and does so on the back of the Treasury and taxpayers. The financial system is partially a fraudulent scheme of fabricating money and lending it. We are all in debt to central bankers. A theory is that JFK was assassinated because he tried to stop the Fed thievery with Executive Order 11110. I don't know how true all the nefarious central banking stuff is throughout the world's history, but it certainly seems like something big is there
2. There has been a boom in credit over the last couple decades without any real backing. The reason this happened was because people were getting poorer, but yet they still had to play the game of cyclical consumption. It's a double whammy for the banks/megacorps because they got to pay people less while increasing those peoples' indebtedness. This is systemic usury on an entire economy of people
It may not be feasible, by why does everybody get their panties in a wad over trying to make things more equal. All this stuff is stuff that a special few have by the private jet-loads. I, for one, do not support anybody's desire to live like a Sultan because it's on the backs of the massesQuote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Agreed with like 95% of that
Couple things
If we're gonna avoid incredible environmental catastrophe, planting a SHITLOAD of trees might be the only way to do it. All that carbon being returned to the atmosphere has to go somewhere. Sadly I wouldn't be surprised if there's not enough land on the planet to sequester enough of the GHG's that are awakening from the Earth's depths
I generally disagree with people hating on nuclear power. It's not like stuff like coal isn't enormously more destructive historically, but also nuclear power is fantastic if it's not corrupted. Problem is that it's normally corrupted. But again it doesn't matter in the long run since 100% of recoverable and economical fossil fuels will be burnt no matter what
Demanding a bunch of stuff like a living wage regardless of employment and a do-over on debt just gives people a reason to laugh at this movement. Hell, I'm starting to laugh at it due to this list and the massive amount of hipsters/hippies at this protest with nothing better to do that don't understand what this movement is really about.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
I agree with Bigred in that the idea of a living wage regardless of employment and a debt do-over are both negatives. People sitting on their asses doing nothing with said minimum wage would irk people pretty hard, including myself. I understand that having one, in the macro sense, would most likely be good for the economy. However, having it on the proposed list simply turns off some would-be supporters of this cause. Having it instated would benefit a whole lot of people that are simply living off hand-outs.
I totally disagree. Idiots use credit cards incorrectly. Hell, I think you're a sucker if you use a credit card period. The people that got themselves in debt never educated themselves on how to properly use one. It's their own goddamn fault. Obviously the issuing bank is looking to deceive them into using as much credit as possible and then owning their ass. That's simply their business. I agreed with Obama's push against banks and their practices to make it harder for them to own people but a get-out-of-jail free card is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Wuf, I understand you want things in this country to change. I do also. However, how is it that you agree with every single point on this list? You do know you CAN disagree with something here, correct? I don't know, it's just hard for me to believe you actually agree with everything put forth here.
I love you anyway though. I still support this cause...I just wish they hadn't put out this list for the media to bash and isolate would-be supporters.
Quote:
Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
Credit agencies are accused of being rigged towards certain demographics. Who needs credit agencies when, no matter what, debts will be erased, amirite!?!?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
But why are those funny? They're substantially better policy than the current paradigm. Our construct mandates massive debt and unemployment. There are better ways to fix this, but the proposed ways are still better than keeping the exact same horribly destructive model we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
FWIW, I prefer employment/education mandates instead of living wages. That fixes the entire "sitting on ass" problem (which really wouldn't be much of a problem, but I already made some points on that). Bottom line is that there is ENORMOUS capacity in the society, but it's mostly wasted. The main reason this exists is because surplus of laborers is hugely beneficial for large business owner's bottom lines.
In the perfect world, I disagree with living wage, as mandatory employment would work incredibly way better. However, a living wage is immensely better than the current paradigm of oppression, devastated capacity, and thievery. Make a law that the government must hire anybody who wants a job, and the economy would go bonkers awesome. But again, uber rich establishments would become less uber rich due to competition and a tight labor market and some times of a wee bit higher taxes, so it won't happen
You partially just made my case. Regardless, blaming people for doing what sociology predicts they do is a mistake. This is a case of consumers being mislead. The masses can't be expected to be financial analysts and understand things so well that they can see through the lies that credit isn't real money (and that money itself isn't even "real money".) Like what happens if the USD crashes and then the people with real resources and commodities blame everybody else for "living beyond their means" because everybody knoooows that money wasn't real? It's not much different; we're taught that money has the value that we're taught it has, and we've been taught that credit lines and mortgages had a certain value as well, but then that value got pulled out from under us. Not to mention this was orchestrated. Some people saw through the bullshit, but the correct analysis is that the masses should not be expected to see through the bullshitQuote:
I totally disagree. Idiots use credit cards incorrectly. Hell, I think you're a sucker if you use a credit card period. The people that got themselves in debt never educated themselves on how to properly use one. It's their own goddamn fault. Obviously the issuing bank is looking to deceive them into using as much credit as possible and then owning their ass. That's simply their business. I agreed with Obama's push against banks and their practices to make it harder for them to own people but a get-out-of-jail free card is ridiculous.
I don't want to blame a lumberjack for not knowing how to electrically wire a house, but I would blame a lumberjack if he deliberately manipulated his profession to take advantage of other people. That's what the bankers have done. They manipulated shit to help them and hurt us, then convinced us it was our fault. It's blaming the worker bees for not being queen bees
It's just because the stuff is better than the current paradigm. It really is. If I made a list, there would be striking differences, but that doesn't mean that the OWS list which proposes policy that steals from people less isn't goodQuote:
Wuf, I understand you want things in this country to change. I do also. However, how is it that you agree with every single point on this list? You do know you CAN disagree with something here, correct? I don't know, it's just hard for me to believe you actually agree with everything put forth here.
I kind of agree, but am not sure. Haters gonna hate, that kinda thing. Corporate media will bash them no matter what, and frankly I don't see any conservatives jumping their ship. I think we do need to find a way to bring conservatives and liberals (Tea Party sympathizers and OWS sympathizers) together, since the bottom line is something we all agree on i.e. removing the wealthy's influence on politicsQuote:
I love you anyway though. I still support this cause...I just wish they hadn't put out this list for the media to bash and isolate would-be supporters.
Also, would just like to add that forgiving all debt would hurt the top 1% the most and benefit the poorest the most. Perpetual debt on the non-rich is a very real thing. And to make somebody think I'm invoking Godwin's Law, WW2 happened because of Germany's debt, and that's most of the story. Debt is an enormously destructive perpetuating cycle. Some aspects of debt are arguably beneficial, but most of it is nothing other than a reverse Robin Hood
Makes me feel terrible for some of the things I complain about.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Fucking AQuote:
Originally Posted by bigred
It's like accusing somebody at the grocery store of not knowing what they want because they're getting a variety of things
Thought to comment, decided to masturbate instead.
$20hr LOL, free education for all.
WTF is moral imperative? I have never trolled, but this is fucking ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by !Luck
$20hr seems very arbitrary, but I think the idea is for everyone to have a livable wage. What is laughable and "fucking ridiculous" about a livable wage and free education?
Naw, you're right. Only the people who the inherently unfair system favor should have good income and education. Humanity is pure survival of the fittest. If you have it better than other people it's because you are a better person and you deserve it.Quote:
Originally Posted by !Luck
social darwinism says you should be drawn and quarteredQuote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
$20/hr minimum wage strikes me as borderline ridiculous, but I don't see how people can scoff at the idea that education should be free for all.
Intersting. I'd like to see simiklar data on the UK. I imagine it would present a similar picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Holy F O.o at the demands.
I was actually pretty supportive of Occupy Wall Street before they published that...wtf. Completely unrealistic.
Their very first demand is to demand a protectionist state? Clearly these people have no understanding of economics and how that hurts *everyone*.
I'm not even going to focus on the other demands because that by itself is so stupid as to nullify any support from anyone with even the most elementary education of economics. Oi.
Let's remember this is just a proposed list of demands that probably shouldn't have been published on a webpage when they just started to get the media attention they wanted.
I'm hoping the final list of demands is more focused and...smarter.
You do realize that this list is simply a post on a public forum, right? You do realize that this is a grassroots movement with no organized central structure, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by ensign_lee
Thinking on the demands with a fresh mind, I definitely see now how a lot of it is silly. Not so much the wanting them part, but making them demands. This could be a simple case of liberals doing what we've been trying to get Obama to do all these years i.e. start in a strong position then negotiate from there, but perhaps not
So I think I'm gonna agree with you guys. While I agree with the "pie in the sky" sentiments of the demands, I'm not sure 1/3rd/half of them should be on there
Short post agreeing with us...wat
Wufwugy's account recently got hacked by the government ldfo
Did Wuf just acknowledge being wrong?
Reforming your position to new information and better logic is the only way to be right
Too true. Though, if you follow this sentiment to its logical end you'd recognize right in this context has little meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Livable wage? WTF is that? How do you define this?Quote:
Originally Posted by boost
All of this just reeks of central planning. Plus, all these protest happening in America, one of the easiest countries to thrive is pretty funny.
Free education means, free college education. basically implies everyone can go to college. Is this even remotely realistic?
Too many people go to college now. If you're saddling up for a science degree, then it should be free because that is valueable to society as a whole... but there are a lot of degrees with nebulous value. Valuable people with degrees in philosophy or literature are probably just as valuable without.Quote:
Originally Posted by !Luck
Easy. It's how much money an economy requires of its citizens in order to be healthy participants of the economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by !Luck
You mean like highways? Central planning is an important aspect of any society. What we want, more or less, is a mixed economy. Which we have, but it's also way too heavy on some aspectsQuote:
All of this just reeks of central planning.
See, that's called propaganda. Americans believe this because it's what we're told. However, according to statistics, among modern nations, USA is one of the most difficult ones in which to achieveQuote:
Plus, all these protest happening in America, one of the easiest countries to thrive is pretty funny.
Much healthier societies already do this. Which is an important reason why they're healthierQuote:
Free education means, free college education. basically implies everyone can go to college. Is this even remotely realistic?
Nothing like going straight to ad hominem attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
It is delusional to think that life is fair. It isn't. There is the birth lottery, genetic lottery, the not get randomly hit by bus lottery, ect. It is a whole lot of shit in this world.
With all of the above we are lucky to have something. Deserve is a fucked up word. What does that mean? Does anyone deserves anything? The poor crack whore doesn't deserves to be a crack whore. The rich capitalist dosen't desrve to be rich. No one deserves shit.
The word deserve is only used to say poor person x doesn't have enough or rich person has too much. Who are you? Who is anyone to decide what one deserve?
Also, America is freaking nice. The things that are possible here is pretty amazing. This really is the land of opportunities, at least when I compare it to my family in Russia.
Attempting to even dissect their demands will make my head explode.
How do you calculate this? How do you define "healthy participant of the economy"Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
It reeks of the bad type of central planning, where most things, instead of "some" things are planned. Of all the things we discussed, I suspect you and I will be closest here. Cause I give FDR thumbs up for the highway system. I am not so naive to believe in unrestricted capitalism.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
I compare us vs. Russia, vs most of the old soviet block. Maybe, that's my reference point. Cause I am an immigrant after all. Maybe this is what colors all of my views.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Examples. Also how do you define "healthier"?Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
You made a case for egalitarianism.Quote:
Originally Posted by !Luck
Compared to Russia, that is probably correctQuote:
Also, America is freaking nice. The things that are possible here is pretty amazing. This really is the land of opportunities, at least when I compare it to my family in Russia.
It's calculated by living standards and living expenses. There are certain necessary standards to even have opportunity in the first place, and those standards have certain prices. I define healthy participant as somebody who moves both his life and the society forward. Economics is a cyclical thing, and it either moves forwards or backwardsQuote:
How do you calculate this? How do you define "healthy participant of the economy"
Healthier is defined by many aspects of living standards and some other stuff. Things like life expectancy, income equality, happiness indexes, and literacy rates are used to show correlations of healthier societiesQuote:
Examples. Also how do you define "healthier"?
Examples will be lots of European countries. Not all, but many like Norway and Germany and stuff. I don't keep up on any of the specifics of any of them, but US loses to lots of those countries in efficacy of virtually everything like health care, employment, education, happiness, etc. But even stuff like China and other "third world" developing countries have a lot of much more advanced infrastructure than US
We got a great picture of a cop spraying some guy at the protest, you'll see it tomorrow.