Mission: Become a poker player - via FTR

Thanks Keilah

1.
Guys can you tell me if this was an OK move to make or if I shouldn't have done it?

Reads: SB is 58/26 over 30 hands, and UTG+1 is 31/4 over 26 hands. I noticed that SB was C-betting alot (25%).

The board looked non scary and when the C-Bet was called, I assumed they both had either overcards, or were drawing.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($0.93)
UTG+1 ($1.77)
MP1 ($4.86)
MP2 ($2.73)
MP3 ($1.83)
Hero (CO) ($2.05)
Button ($1.67)
SB ($0.95)
BB ($4.66)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.06, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.20) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets $0.06, UTG+1 calls $0.06, Hero raises to $0.30,

Also. 2.
How did I play this hand? and was my call on the river ok, or should I have been concerned about the flush?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($1.25)
MP2 ($1.98)
CO ($4.41)
Button ($2.69)
Hero (SB) ($2.33)
BB ($1.67)
UTG ($0.79)
UTG+1 ($4.51)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
4 folds, CO raises to $0.04, Button calls $0.04, Hero calls $0.03, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.14) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $0.14, 1 fold, Button calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.42) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, Button calls $0.30

River: ($1.02) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.38, Hero calls $0.38

Total pot: $1.78 | Rake: $0.05

thanks

I think 2nl must have changed alot since you guys were playing, it's far from easy. I'm finding hardly no fish to be honest, everyone is playing tight.

Also I just lost a stack - this is like pulling teeth out at the moment. I think I need to have a rethink because after playing for 10 hours between yesterday and today, i'm still behind. It's very hard work, I thought 2nl would be easy.

Here's a hand that just cost me my stack: -

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($2.01)
BB ($4.23)
UTG ($2.43)
UTG+1 ($0.62)
Hero (MP1) ($3.31)
MP2 ($2.72)
CO ($3.27)
Button ($4.04)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.14, Button calls $0.14, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, CO calls $0.26, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.97) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1, CO calls $1

Turn: ($2.97) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.91 (All-In), CO calls $1.87 (All-In)

River: ($6.71) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $6.71 | Rake: $0.30

Results in white below:
Hero had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (high card, Ace).
CO had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: CO won $6.41

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, K
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.14, Button calls $0.14, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, CO calls $0.26, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.97) 5, 3, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $1, CO calls $1

Turn: ($2.97) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.91 (All-In), CO calls $1.87 (All-In)

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keilah

Do not double barrel.

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hmm thanks - I wasn't double barelling as it goes, at least I thought I wasn't. I thought I probabally had the best hand here and was tryng to protect it. I put him on any two broadways - he was quite loose. Having said that I guess he could have easily been on a PP - so probabally not a good move on my part.

2nl is not hard, you are having trouble identifying the fish because you just aren't that good at poker right now and that means you cannot understand their leaks let alone yours.

Keep working on your game and get better, then you'll notice how bad they truly are.

thanks for the comments as always... I keep telling myself how annoying it is that no one respects your bets, but I guess this is the thing that should make this limit easy. If you've got a hand, you don't want them to respect your bets... maybe I've just got to be more patient, I need to put my desire to play slightly higher stakes out of mind and just concentrate on the task at hand. I've retitled my OP maybe that'll remind me what it's all about at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I think 2nl must have changed alot since you guys were playing, it's far from easy.

---

This has got to be one of the greatest quotes ever.

Hand 1 fold flop
Hand 2 fold pre
Hand 3 give up on turn.

Current BR: 31.24

Goals for the coming week: -
- play 300 hands per day per table @ 2nl.
- setup PT properly and analyse win rate after 10,000 hands.
- stop thinking in terms of buy ins, and just try to develop a half sensible win/rate.

According to the following - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...00-t40980.html
30bb/100 is a good win rate at 2nl, so that's going to be my goal over 10k hands.

Although I've been telling myself to concentrate on the process, in the back of my mind I was expecting FAR more profit than $3.60 per day 1 tabling (and at 50 hands an hour, 6 hours a day, that's 300 hands a day, so 90bb a day, which is $3.60 ).

I was expecting to be stacking 3 - 4 people in 6 hours - so double that, so I've been underestimating the quality of the win/rate when I'm up a buy in for instance. I know you shouldn't think in terms of buy ins, but no matter what I tell myself, at the back of my mind - I always kind of do, that's what we're here for right?

Also I'm cutting down on the number of blog entries - 3/4 a day is getting a bit crazy. I'll spend the time I'd normally spend writing here reading, and update evey couple of days instead.

I think you should join us in IRC, if you don't know how to do it check the commune sticky.

thanks I'll give that a go tomorrow mornng muzzard.

this stake is just impossible - I keep just swallowing the past and saying - let's move on, it'll work out - but in the long term if it isn't working you have to try something different I think.

I'm tempted to deposit more and play 5nl / 10nl - i'm not chasing, i'm only a buy in down - but I think it would actually be easier for me to play there, still many weaknesses but at least they have 1% of an idea how to play so you're not just playing randomness.

This has been sparked by my last hand which is just an example of many... how on earth am I meant to put him on a flush draw here? after he raises - my flop bet, on the strength of a draw?!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($4.98)
CO ($1.82)
Hero (Button) ($3.92)
SB ($2.81)
BB ($2.13)
UTG ($0.68)
UTG+1 ($1.08)
MP1 ($5)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, SB calls $0.11, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.40) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.30, SB raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.60) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.60) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $0.64, Hero raises to $3.20 (All-In), SB calls $1.45 (All-In)

Total pot: $5.78 | Rake: $0.25

Try 6 max, fewer nits and wider ranges.

Thanks fnord, I will give 6max a go at some point. I've spent the last two to three days reading up on FTR about micro stakes full ring play, which is why I'd like to stick with that for now if doable. I was getting so frustrated with 2nl. I just wanted a bit more orthodoxy.

It's 5am now I've just finished a 4 hour session at 10nl and I really enjoyed it. I've played about 200 hands single tabling in a little under four hours, it's a tiny tiny sample I know but I did pretty well.

The biggest problem is I'm not rolled for 10nl at the moment, but it's a trade-off between not being rolled for a stake I think I have half a chance of beating, and being rolled for a stake that just seems like a lottery to me.

Although I only have $52.90 in my BR at the moment, after this session, I can deposit another 50-60 in about 3 days if need be, so my effective BR is a bit more than this. Given that in this very small sample I've found I seem to be holding my own, I'm tempted to carry on, I'd be interested to hear what you guys think, I just feel like I'm hitting my head on a brick wall at 2nl...

Here are my stats and graph for the first 200 hands, any comments much appreciated.

Having PT installed really helps, I was conscious of a rising VPIP and although I didn't manage the 15 that Daven suggested, I'm getting close... Wow it's been a long day, at 5.23am I should probabally be going to bed, I'm pleased I've finished with what appears to be some progress.

*the first 20 or so hands in the graph are 2nl, but the rest are 10nl.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/1...sat10nlcg5.png

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4...nlstatset9.png

nice session =]

Hand 2 I'd normally 3bet pre but thatd be suicide at 2nl so fold. IMO only 3bet QQ+, AK and get it allin pre every time.

Dude I told you, value bet TPGK+. AK high cards is NOT TPGK+.

Playing underrolled again? You will be on the sidelines again soon enough if you keep at it. I mean seriously, how have you not learned your lesson? 2nl has the worst players on the site. It's that simple. You want to play against the worst players. So do it.

If you cannot beat 2NL, you will have trouble beating 10NL.

"The biggest problem is I'm not rolled for 10nl at the moment, but it's a trade-off between not being rolled for a stake I think I have half a chance of beating, and being rolled for a stake that just seems like a lottery to me. "

I think this is an illusion. All of it is always like a lottery. You just haven't been able to identify the table and the playing atmosphere I think. If you get caught at 10NL, the consequences are going to be much more severe than losing a few on the 2NL. Stay out of 10NL is my opinion.

You're playing way WAY too aggressive.

Why are you raising 1$ when your stack is 3$ on the hand where you had AK?

I know lots of places teach you 2.5x the BB, and other things, so why are you putting out 40 cents? Do people see you as an aggro player? Treat your stack like your BANKROLL. You only get one shot. Stop blowing your stack like your bankroll can cushion it.

It can't. Every game, you need to win. Every play has to be your best.

From all of the plays I've observed you do on your operations and blogs. You play much too aggressive without the nuts. A smaller raise can initiate the same results, and not every opponent you meet is going to be Phil Ivey, Daniel Negreanu, or Scotty Nyguen. Not everyone is going to know, oh, he raised 3x my raise with a 3bet, and my A10 is probably dominated cause he's most likely holding AK.

This isn't the world series of poker, and players play horrible and reckless.

Poker Theory doesn't work unless EVERYONE is playing the same type of game. Even then, its a toss up on which style is better. Its good that aggression is your forte, but honestly, tighten up your game a lot more.

Go play Limit holdem to learn how to play tight. If you come back busted, it means you learned some valuable lessons. If you come back winning, then you're ready to start playing NL aggressive again.

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I just read some of your post and noticed you wanted to try depositing more.

Don't.

I'm going to save you a bunch of trouble and tell you to not focus on some of the wins you've been getting. If you're not winning on every dimension-you're a losing player. That's that. Putting more money in because you won 10NL isn't wise because, why are you depositing when you're winning? That doesn't even make sense. If you know this game is on luck also. How could you not see the fall that's coming? You won ONE session on 10NL. Are you going to risk half a paycheck to play this new game you are not familiar with?

You study to become the best poker player. That has always been the goal. If you can't beat any game. You are not the best. Read more and more before you start playing again. Your reading should be 3x the amount of time you're playing. Daniel Negreanu said, he's a fan first and a player second. You seem to want to itch to play without knowing the boundaries of the game. Tighten up your game. Tighten up your lifestyle. Tighten up your mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zel

I think this is an illusion. All of it is always like a lottery. You just haven't been able to identify the table and the playing atmosphere I think. If you get caught at 10NL, the consequences are going to be much more severe than losing a few on the 2NL. Stay out of 10NL is my opinion.

You're playing way WAY too aggressive.

Why are you raising 1$ when your stack is 3$ on the hand where you had AK?

I know lots of places teach you 2.5x the BB, and other things, so why are you putting out 40 cents? Do people see you as an aggro player? Treat your stack like your BANKROLL. You only get one shot. Stop blowing your stack like your bankroll can cushion it.

It can't. Every game, you need to win. Every play has to be your best.

From all of the plays I've observed you do on your operations and blogs. You play much too aggressive without the nuts. A smaller raise can initiate the same results, and not every opponent you meet is going to be Phil Ivey, Daniel Negreanu, or Scotty Nyguen. Not everyone is going to know, oh, he raised 3x my raise with a 3bet, and my A10 is probably dominated cause he's most likely holding AK.


This isn't the world series of poker, and players play horrible and reckless.

Poker Theory doesn't work unless EVERYONE is playing the same type of game. Even then, its a toss up on which style is better. Its good that aggression is your forte, but honestly, tighten up your game a lot more.

Go play Limit holdem to learn how to play tight. If you come back busted, it means you learned some valuable lessons. If you come back winning, then you're ready to start playing NL aggressive again.

---------------------
I just read some of your post and noticed you wanted to try depositing more.

Don't.

I'm going to save you a bunch of trouble and tell you to not focus on some of the wins you've been getting. If you're not winning on every dimension-you're a losing player. That's that. Putting more money in because you won 10NL isn't wise because, why are you depositing when you're winning? That doesn't even make sense. If you know this game is on luck also. How could you not see the fall that's coming? You won ONE session on 10NL. Are you going to risk half a paycheck to play this new game you are not familiar with?

You study to become the best poker player. That has always been the goal. If you can't beat any game. You are not the best. Read more and more before you start playing again. Your reading should be 3x the amount of time you're playing. Daniel Negreanu said, he's a fan first and a player second. You seem to want to itch to play without knowing the boundaries of the game. Tighten up your game. Tighten up your lifestyle. Tighten up your mind.

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Basically everything I put in bold I either completely disagree with, partially disagree with, or believe it to be inaccurate (but am unsure myself).

your hand with the flush draw was a good play by him. Once you move higher up more people will be reraising on the flop with draws I'd say as played good shove. I'd say play 5nl not 10nl its a bigger jump. Play more than one table I would go with 4 tables that is plenty where you can still be playing and learning but I'm a fish also so whatever you want to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate

If you cannot beat 2NL, you will not beat 10NL.

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FYP

Slev, I see your going down the same road to brokesville as before. At least you know the way by now.

If you do happen to cop on and stick to $2NL I recommend you play with 100bb and not 200.

GL, W/E

Slevin,

as people have said, and as has been said many, many times before, if you can't beat the lowest stakes, then you certainly can't beat the higher stakes.

Why do you think you'll fare better at $10nl, where the players are better?

The problem with the hands you posted could have been solved by folding pre or folding when shown aggression by one or more players.

All you need to do at $2nl, is play good hands pre, then when you hit the flop, value town the donks.
Don't try some elaborate play, where you think you have a read and can push them off or whatever. Fold it. Wait for a spot when you KNOW you're ahead and then bet.

Thanks for the comments everyone, this place is great I can't express how grateful I am for the insights that everyone shares, and the impact FTR is having on my game.

I just finished my second session of 10nl. I'm trying to put the hours in because i obviously can't do anything but 1 table until I have a seriously higher bankroll - so I need to put the hours in to get the hands under my belt.

I just played 300 hands and it was a winning session so I'm pleased.

Here is my session graph, and my overal stats so far at 10nl. I know what my VPIP/PFR should be 15/10 from Davens advice, but I'm not too sure what the other stats should be looking like so any advice much appreciated, thanks all.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/181...sessiondq0.png

10nl = busto = waste of time and advice.

if you wanna play 10nl it's your money do what you want with it. Post your per position stats. I think its under reports I havent used PT in a while. But it will tell you VPIP from each position and that helps alot more than total. But those stats look good maybe don't 3bet as much but i'm not sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Thanks for the comments everyone, this place is great I can't express how grateful I am for the insights that everyone shares, and the impact FTR is having on my game.

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Are you kidding me? You seem to ignore all the advice you get!

But, good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Thanks for the comments everyone, this place is great I can't express how grateful I am for the insights that everyone shares, and the impact FTR is having on my game.

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Are you kidding me? You seem to ignore all the advice you get!

But, good luck.

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He said he's greatfull for the insights and it's impacting his game. He's not saying he takes everyones advice. I don't think he should take everyones advice. He is just grateful people are offering it.

Slevin dude I feel you.

People laughed at me when I dropped back down to 2nl said it wouldn't teach me anything either!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bbickes

Slevin dude I feel you.

People laughed at me when I dropped back down to 2nl said it wouldn't teach me anything either!

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Yep.. But Bbickes soared back through the stakes is now regging it up at 10nl. GG bbickes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bbickes

Slevin dude I feel you.

People laughed at me when I dropped back down to 2nl said it wouldn't teach me anything either!

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Yep.. But Bbickes soared back through the stakes is now regging it up at 50nl. GG bbickes.

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FYP :roll:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Basically everything I put in bold I either completely disagree with, partially disagree with, or believe it to be inaccurate (but am unsure myself).

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Thank you for pointing those out. Maybe I am wrong in my advice. I have a lot to learn before I know as much as you stacks. I'll reread my statements and figure out why you disagree with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Basically everything I put in bold I either completely disagree with, partially disagree with, or believe it to be inaccurate (but am unsure myself).

---

Thank you for pointing those out. Maybe I am wrong in my advice. I have a lot to learn before I know as much as you stacks. I'll reread my statements and figure out why you disagree with me.

---

This was the response I was hoping for from you. The reason I didn't point out my reasonings for disagreeing in my initial post is because so many times you will state a differing opinion and the OP will just overlook it, and you wasted your time. But since you showed interest in hearing a different opinion, then I'm happy to explain. Just want to say this is of my opinion, and because of this is entitled to being wrong itself. So if anyone finds anything, don't hesitate to let the criticisms fly.

First concerning the two or so times you referred to poker as being a "lottery" or alot of luck. While there is a portion of luck involved with poker, it has been proven that skill plays a much larger part. Consistent winners are players that have the skills necessary to beat the games they play in. While luck may influence the outcome of a single hand, an entire session, or even several sessions lasting for a significant sample of hands, a player that has the skills to win will win in the long run, and the players that don't, will lose.

On the WAY too aggressive bit. I pointed this out because it's pretty much just a blanket statement and misleading, as I believe you are referring to in general (As indicative by your response about being too aggro without the nuts). While there are times when you should choose a passive live over an aggressive line, and vice versa, aggression is generally seen as a good thing in NLHE.

And concerning the "too aggro without the nuts" remark. You will rarely get the absolute nuts. This doesn't mean you can't be aggressive. The strength of your hand is based on numerous factors. The board texture, the previous actions, villain tendencies, etc... all play a major part in determining you hand strength. So if you are being aggressive in hopes of getting value from your hand you must consider all those factors. As we know against some players we hate felting hands like TPTK, but against others we are happy to get it all in. This is because we have done a range assessment and determined how our hand falls in relationship to our opponents percieved range.

As a side note on aggression, you aren't always going to be betting/raising when you feel you have the best hand. And it's okay to be aggressive when you feel you opponents are weak and are likely to fold. You don't have the nuts, but you have reads.

Concerning your 2.5xBB betsizing remark. As a general rule alot of players have a "standard" bet sizing they use for preflop. Generally this is between 3x-4xbb + 1bb per limper. This has shown great success in achieving the desired outcomes generally (limit the field, build the pot, etc). At 2nl, I highly advice that your preflop raising size should be larger than 2.5xbb. This is because most players at 2nl are passive calling stations. And it's because of this you should be playing a tighter range. Therefore, since you are playing a tighter range, and the players are willing to call with their inferior ranges, you should be betting more. I would subscribe to a 4xbb + 1bb per limper standard for now.

"Do people see you as an aggro player"?.. This was a little nit-picky of me, but generally microstakes players fail to observe their opponents in a meaningful manner. Sure, they might say someone is "LAGG" or "TAGG", but they rarely know how to put any of the information they pick up to good use (that is they adjust badly). Just wanted to point out that rarely should you be making moves based on your table image at the microstakes.

Concerning treating your stack like your Bankroll, and consequently having to win every game because you only have one shot. While I think you intended for this to come over as somewhat of a pep talk, I just wanted to point out that IMO I think this is a bad thought process. Your stack essentially isn't your Bankroll. It is a portion of your bankroll. If you treat every stack as if it's your bankroll, and act as if you can't afford to lose it, then you will be too busy "protecting your 'roll'", and you will pass up on +ev plays. Your goal isn't to win everytime, because this is essentially impossible. Your goal is to attempt to make a +ev decision every chance you get.

But in OP's case, his stack is essentially his role because it is such a significant portion of his BR. This is why BR management is sooooo incredibly huge. With a cushioned and proper BR you can afford to make a play that you know is +ev, but only very marginally. You can take the hit to your BR, and still play your A-game.

"This isn't the world series of poker, and players play horrible and reckless". While this is obviously a true statement, I just wanted to point out two quick things. First, the world series of poker is full of absolutely terrible players. And secondly, playing against "horrible and reckless" players is the best thing you can hope for, and sets up ideal situations. I mean if you had money on the line, and wanted to win that money, would you want to play chess against a chess master or your 3 year old brother? It's simple that you would want to play against the least skilled opponent. The same is true for poker. Just because those oppoenents at time get lucky doesn't mean they are invincible. Just think, if you were to play against a better opponent, not only would they be "getting lucky" with the same frequency, but they would be able to outplay you in nearly every other spot as well.

Not really going to touch on the poker theory remark, as I'm not 100% sure what you mean, and I'm not even close to 100% sure I could explain anything in a manner that would be coherent. But keep in mind, in every situation there is a "best" play. Sometimes it may be incredibly hard to identify the best play (as bet sizing, reads, ranges, history, etc all come into play), but it is there. So just because your opponents aren't playing perfectly, or even decently, doesn't mean you can't strive to make the best play at all times. That is strive to play an optimal strategy.

Me bolding the limit holdem remark is basically because I'm unsure whether this is true, but logically wouldn't think so. I have never played limit holdem for any significant amount of time, or studied it. However, I do believe the ranges are wider at limit holdem than at NLHE. And it's because of this your range should be looser at Limit holdem. In essence, limit holdem is a different game, and at this time with slevin lacking serious knowledge about NLHE, I think it would be bad for him to split his attention between learning two games.

Yeah, so I know I wrote alot. But it was either write this or do some homework, so it's obvious which I chose. I just want to point out, that I wasn't trying to flame you or anything of that nature. I just wasn't sure if stating my opinions in my initial response would be of any benefit to you or others. It still might not be, but who knows. You did offer alot of solid advice, and showed a very positive response to my "criticism".

Playing $10nl then................

to give you a quick idea AGAIN of why we need a bank roll.

I lost 3 buy-ins at $50nl yesterday.

1. I had KK, all-in pre against Q-Q, he flopped a Q

2. I had A-A, all-in pre again against Q-Q....he got a flush on river

3. I had 4-4, flopped a set, he flopped a higher set.

Point is I played them all correctly, but still lost 3 buy-ins. Has it busted me? No. I suck it in, re-load and carry on.

You're playing $10nl with about 3 &1/2 buy-ins when you can't even beat $2nl (because the players are sooo bad you can't beat them???).

This well end exactly where all your poker has ended so far. you may get on a heater and win enough to be rolled at $10nl, then you'll wanna play $25nl etc etc....seen it all before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

... maybe I've just got to be more patient, I need to put my desire to play slightly higher stakes out of mind and just concentrate on the task at hand.

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If you can't even take your own advice Slevin, you are lost. Patience is the key. If you try to force things to happen, you will fail.

F the haters... take your full roll and buyin short for the highest stakes possible... LIVE LIFE!!!

anticipating the trainwreck.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xianti

NOTICE TO ALL TROLLERS:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...34.html#772505

DO NOT reply to my comment in this thread.

Keep this thread (and all Operation threads) on topic and free of insults or anything unhelpful.

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tick...tick...tick...tick...tick...

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR. I'd just like to thank everyone that's offered advice over the last few months, it's really appreciated - and I mean that. Cheers, good luck all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR. I'd just like to thank everyone that's offered advice over the last few months, it's really appreciated - and I mean that. Cheers, good luck all.

---

See you on the tables. If you ever come back just don't tell people your playing above your bankroll. Just lie and say you have a higher bankroll.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigteif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR. I'd just like to thank everyone that's offered advice over the last few months, it's really appreciated - and I mean that. Cheers, good luck all.

---

See you on the tables. If you ever come back just don't tell people your playing above your bankroll. Just lie and say you have a higher bankroll.

---

I also suggest lying and saying you understand concepts that you do not, and that you have a higher winrate, and better stats than your records show. By doing this it allows all information thrown your way to be incredible accurate and helps you learn the game better.

/sarcasm

Motherflippin' bigteif up in the hizzy! <3.

see you next monday

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigteif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR. I'd just like to thank everyone that's offered advice over the last few months, it's really appreciated - and I mean that. Cheers, good luck all.

---

See you on the tables. If you ever come back just don't tell people your playing above your bankroll. Just lie and say you have a higher bankroll.

---

I also suggest lying and saying you understand concepts that you do not, and that you have a higher winrate, and better stats than your records show. By doing this it allows all information thrown your way to be incredible accurate and helps you learn the game better.

/sarcasm

Motherflippin' bigteif up in the hizzy! <3.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Basically everything I put in bold I either completely disagree with, partially disagree with, or believe it to be inaccurate (but am unsure myself).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigteif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR. I'd just like to thank everyone that's offered advice over the last few months, it's really appreciated - and I mean that. Cheers, good luck all.

---

See you on the tables. If you ever come back just don't tell people your playing above your bankroll. Just lie and say you have a higher bankroll.

---

I also suggest lying and saying you understand concepts that you do not, and that you have a higher winrate, and better stats than your records show. By doing this it allows all information thrown your way to be incredible accurate and helps you learn the game better.

/sarcasm

Motherflippin' bigteif up in the hizzy! <3.

---

toushe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

First concerning the two or so times you referred to poker as being a "lottery" or alot of luck.

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I don't think Poker is luck in the professional level. All poker pros are where they are because of consistent skill in implied analyzing, out-counting, and hand odds. The reason why I said what I said was because Slevin referred to 2NL as a lottery and 10NL as a stake he could beat. This bothered me a lot because that reasoning can cause huge devastation to his bankroll when he hits a cold deck. I can only crack his reasoning by giving him reasons why that reasoning is flawed. If 2NL is a lottery to him, 10NL is no different. I think I didn't explain this reasoning in my post, so it looked as if I was calling the whole game a gamble. To the non-professionals, yes. To the veterans, probability wins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

On the WAY too aggressive bit.

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Sorry. Again this was only directed at Slevin. I sincerely think he plays overly aggressive, and I think that's one of his leaks. His opponents somehow are picking it up, or are too loose to know better. I think aggression is KEY in victory for NLHE, just like you. I don't think its something Slevin should do at the state he is in now. Out of the many hands I've read on Slevin's operations, he goes broke on a huge bet, raise, or call. I don't think a great poker player should just go broke just on these situations alone. I've gone broke several times from being short stacked and blinded off. Slevin was moderate-deep stack in most of his situations where he got stack jacked, and if you're losing consistently with a big stack--something is wrong. Low bets should cause the same intimidation from him as huge bets, because people generally don't want to mess with the large stack unless they have a good hand or are getting good implied odds (i'll raise with air connectors if they're trying to bully me). People are somehow picking this leak from Slevin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

And concerning the "too aggro without the nuts" remark. You will rarely get the absolute nuts. This doesn't mean you can't be aggressive. The strength of your hand is based on numerous factors. The board texture, the previous actions, villain tendencies, etc... all play a major part in determining you hand strength. So if you are being aggressive in hopes of getting value from your hand you must consider all those factors. As we know against some players we hate felting hands like TPTK, but against others we are happy to get it all in. This is because we have done a range assessment and determined how our hand falls in relationship to our opponents percieved range.

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I completely agree 100%
This sentence is what you would read in every good holdem book.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

At 2nl, I highly advice that your preflop raising size should be larger than 2.5xbb. This is because most players at 2nl are passive calling stations. And it's because of this you should be playing a tighter range.

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I think I may be lucky then. I play at Pokerstars and I usually pick tables on .02-.05 NL with 50%+ pot avg. Generally, a 15-25cent raise scares everyone off. The problem with Slevin's raise was that he was raising 40-50 cents with 3$. This may be the biggest thing where we have our differences, but I treat my stack absolutely as my bankroll. I will not lose my stack because my bankroll can pamper it. This definitely can limit my playing, but I had a huge problem with self-control earlier because I thought I could always grab more money when I busted out. This made me a HUGE loosing poker player, and I've adjusted that by tightening my stack play now. I know in the end, I'll probably go back to the ideology of playing the stacks strictly by the way the books tell to play it. For now, I just play it safe and look for high pay off situations with low chip commitment.

Slevin has the same problem (if not worse) that I do, with spewing chips and money. He deposits frequently and constantly waivers back and forth to becoming pro or a recreational player. If he has more self-discipline past the bankroll point, into his stack size, its going to expand to his playing style, making him play more TAGG than LAGG. This is what I truly believe, and my advice was again, only to him directly. I don't think its right for other people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Just wanted to point out that rarely should you be making moves based on your table image at the microstakes.

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I need to remember this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

This isn't the world series of poker, and players play horrible and reckless". While this is obviously a true statement, I just wanted to point out two quick things. First, the world series of poker is full of absolutely terrible players. And secondly, playing against "horrible and reckless" players is the best thing you can hope for, and sets up ideal situations. I mean if you had money on the line, and wanted to win that money, would you want to play chess against a chess master or your 3 year old brother?

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WSOP = horrible players = very true. Finals table there... the skills are tremendous. I should have pointed that out. I apologize for being too broad. I'm going to also comment on the poker theory here to relate to the WSOP.

Ever since I started poker my implied odds have always been my best forte out of anything. From movements, to speech, and to betting patterns, I could pick up what cards my opponent had even before studying poker. It was just that back then, I didn't know how to chain read. Meaning that, I couldn't understand what one mannerism, plus betting pattern, + physical image + chip stack size + whatever else, meant in terms of the player. I just looked at one thing and focused on it.

Now, after studying more and more, I realized Poker is broken into something so very complex. When you get into any table, you always want to play opposite of the table atmosphere and generate high profit payouts. This is one thing books teach you.

Here is something I want to theorize. Please consider it and tell me what you think. In certain tables, depending on the # of fishes there are, the range that people call with, tight players, loose players, calling stations, you can play certain hands with the same probability value as dominant hands. I don't know how to explain it. I'm so excited to tell you what I mean, but its a really complex thing that happens in my head. I understand the table atmosphere almost completely, and I know how to manipulate the betting ranges and when I bet, I generally know what people are holding, and what they're comfortable playing with as soon as post-flop hits.

I play sloppily loose in terms of calling preflop in low stake tables, but its usually when I get 6-1 odds, when the table doesn't raise much, and when I'm deep-stacked. I fold hands that are dominated. A-9 and lower in all early positions. As soon as new players enter and I sense a change in presence, I'll tighten up my game and go strictly back to book playing. So far, all of my sessions on Stars have been positive so I think this is working. I'll let you know after I go 20 more different sessions; who knows, maybe I'm onto something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Me bolding the limit holdem remark is basically because I'm unsure whether this is true, but logically wouldn't think so. I have never played limit holdem for any significant amount of time, or studied it. However, I do believe the ranges are wider at limit holdem than at NLHE. And it's because of this your range should be looser at Limit holdem.

---

My NL hold'em game got strengthened by limit by so much. I have always loss in the end on limit, but the reason why limit taught me how to be better at NL is because of the looseness of other players. When you get to turns and rivers, you have to make impossible decisions. I got beat by a boat of 10s against my trip 9s K kicker for being overly aggressive.

The message I wanted to get to Slevin from that remark is that, Limit Holdem is so much of a loose game. Since everyone is loose, you have to play opposite the table, tight. Its also a game where you can't win Huge pots in a matter of seconds, it takes commitment, time, long-term endurance and will to stay up above water in Limit hold em from my experience.

================================
Overall, I believe I offered advice to Slevin in terms to the phase at where he is now. He's always been looking to be a winning player and to become a professional, but he doesn't have the tools to get there, and he states he lacks self-discipline. I know the advice I give him aren't fundamentally sound, but those were different techniques that helped me, and might be able to make him let go of his schema of how poker should be played, and what poker actually is.

From the very first day, I also made a mental label on you Stacks. The first post I read that was rich of advice was your critique in Slevin's operation thread. Right then, I knew you were one of the elite top players with sound rational advice, that I could learn a lot from. I noticed Slevin had a hard time finding a way to get to the enlightenment of your advice, so I'm trying to make him do things that seem offtrack, or backwards, in order for him to past certain stepping stones to better his game.

Again, I'm totally open to any other schools of thoughts you may have on my comments in this post. I find it that, through our disagreements, I infact agree with everything you said and offered. It is just the level of advice that was given. Yours was higher level, while mine was at a lower level--something I think Slevin needs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR.

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What happened?

Zel - I believe this is what your looking for:

Path to Enlightenment. Follow it.

:D .. Seriously follow that thread, and come join us in #flopturnriver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xianti

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR.

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What happened?

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Nothing happened Xianti a few have told me I'm wasting my time and theres by asking for advice, because I will not follow their bankroll advice, but I have no problem with people being blunt with their views. The only reason I'm taking some time away from the forums is because I need to develop discipline. I think FTR is a wonderful place and I look forward to coming back and developing my game further when I have developed the basic requirement of discipline that I woefully lack at present and is so important to success at any level of the poker world.

I've learnt alot over the past few months but that is probabally the most important and repeated lesson.

Knowledge without action is worthless, so while I understand that discipline is fundamental to success, I need to find a way, away from the tables of fostering it. I think FTR is the best kept secret in the world of online poker, so I'd just like to thank you for it, and all the mods that moderate it.

See you in a few months!

So you're leaning on HUD while one tabling 10NLFR?
:facepalm:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigteif

if you wanna play 10nl it's your money do what you want with it. Post your per position stats. I think its under reports I havent used PT in a while. But it will tell you VPIP from each position and that helps alot more than total. But those stats look good maybe don't 3bet as much but i'm not sure.

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He's played 500 hands...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fat-b

see you next monday

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QFMFT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xianti

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR.

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What happened?

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Nothing happened Xianti

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Okay. Just wanted to be sure that some of the people here weren't driving you away or something.

Good luck and see you when you're ready!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I think FTR is the best kept secret in the world of online poker, so I'd just like to thank you for it, and all the mods that moderate it.

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:clap:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhBollocks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I think FTR is the best kept secret in the world of online poker, so I'd just like to thank you for it, and all the mods that moderate it.

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:clap:

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Best post in a while.

Hehe well, I try to offer good advice to you Slevin and I'm a relatively new member! I hope your break goes well for you, and you can come back stronger. Just remember that, if you've been trying to look for something for this long, and can't find it. A lot of what the negative criticisms you're getting might sadly be true.

Bankroll, I think is really important.. You don't even need the bankroll to be deposited into an engine. Your bankroll can be what you mentally set aside for playing. If you want to play 10NL, make sure you know that the money you win or lose, won't affect your financial ability.

Thanks Zel, I have no problem with negative criticism, I really don't honest! In fact I welcome it, yes what you've said about the bankroll is right on the money, and I am very thankful for those that kept hammering on at me these past four or so weeks telling me to sort my act out RE: BR management. If it wasn't for that I wouldnt have realised the importance of it :) It's just the personal attacks being characterised as a prick and all that crap that I don't take very well. I just think lifes too short - and it's completely counterproductive to anyones poker growth! Although I don't retaliate with like for like insults, it's still is a great detractor from actual growth. I mean I could have spent the last half hour reading up on EV which is what I actually intended instead of replying to that tripe.

I'm not starting 2nl until I have $200. I'm fairly confident I've pinpointed the root of my discipline issues re: my BR - and hope to be a lean mean grinding machine when I restart my OP! =)

{copied from split-out}

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Seen as I'm posting - I may as well update any out there that are interested in where I am at . I still intend not to post for a few months - although I will still be reading strategy here etc... every now and again.
I have some real life things I'm sorting out (have made some fairly good progress already just in this past day) while I am away from the tables, which in turn will make it easier for me to play my 100% A game when at the tables, and I hope, lessen the bankroll discipline problems I have been having.

I have already put a lot of thought into my BR, and am actually going to become a BR nit, believe it or not ;) - I intend to play with 100 buy ins for each limit, I haven't just cropped this number out of thin air though - I have worked it out in great detail - and I think for me that will be the optimum number! I'll let you all know how I came to that number when I return full time to FTR and start posting again (which by current estimates will be about 6-8 weeks from today).

My plan is to have beaten 2nl and 5nl by the time I return, over about 25k hands in each limit - I'll be playing 8 hours a day for the next approx 8 weeks and if my rough estimates are anything to go by I should have the BR to move to 5nl in about 3 weeks, and the BR to move to 10nl in about 4 weeks after that, which will be the point at which I hope to return and re-launch my poker journey on a firm footing!

Please mods, don't lock this thread, I'd like to continue it when I return- I promise not to reply to any more negative comments - I just wanted to try to set the records straight. :)

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Step 1: Join #flopturnriver
Step 2: Improve rapidly at poker
Step 3: Make $20/hour in rakeback at 100nl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Step 1: Join #flopturnriver
Step 2: Improve rapidly at poker
Step 3: Make $20/hour in rakeback at 100nl

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Lol @ new sig!

How bout more of you guys try staying up all night so I actually get to talk poker when Im in there :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhBollocks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Step 1: Join #flopturnriver
Step 2: Improve rapidly at poker
Step 3: Make $20/hour in rakeback at 100nl

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Lol @ new sig!

How bout more of you guys try staying up all night so I actually get to talk poker when Im in there :wink:

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Or you could come in there more often and not have to make people miss their bedtimes. ;)

I ALSO WHATNT 5 DOLALRS

good luck slevin your my hero. you have the discipline to quit not a degen after all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fat-b

see you next monday

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QFMFT

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Good call :-)

I’ve had a good couple of days away from the tables and am pleased to say they have been some of the most transformative I’ve had since I can remember. In trying to come to terms with why I repeatedly keep failing to follow the most basic of poker fundamentals such as bankroll management and discipline at the table I have been forced to think about areas of my life in quite a profound way. As a result I have managed to pin-point the problem so far with my poker and also make some real strides in my own personal life.

I’ve come to realize that my inability to look at the longer term picture was partly due to a financial insecurity away from the tables which was being impregnated onto almost every decision I made at the table. I’ve also realized that my dissatisfaction with my current life situation in general meant that I was urgently looking for a quick-fix, this quick-fix mentality was carried forward into my poker. These two pretty major issues have really impacted my game for the worst in these past few months.

These realizations have had a number of consequences. Firstly I’ve started the ball rolling with addressing some financial issues in my life I should have tackled a long time ago, and this has already had a big positive impact on my life. Secondly I have re-evaluated my life and where it is going. I have re-considered the principles (or lack of…) that I’ve been using in making daily decisions in my life, in evaluating where I am at in life, and in evaluating where I want to be in life.

One of the things I’ve realized is that becoming a successful poker player is as much about the transformation that occurs on the way to becoming a successful poker player as it is about actually reaching the finishing line and becoming a successful player.

So… what changes have I made to my poker? Well firstly I have really thought long and hard about ‘the longer term’ approach to poker success. I have changed my frame of reference for success. To be successful is to be successful over days, weeks, months and years. What happens in any one hand, one game, one session or one day should have pretty much zero impact on your success or the way you view your game.

I have been trying to put band-aids on my weaknesses these past few months by repeating and vowing to follow BR management plans for instance, by keep telling myself over and over that I need to stay detached and look at the bigger picture, etc… But I have ignored the issues in my life that I mentioned above and the problem with my overal poker outlook - that these failed attempts signalled.

After quite a bit of thought, In light of all this I have decided to play with 200 buy ins for every stake >$2 that I play at. Aside from the bigger life issues I’ve already made great strides in, I realized that the main reason I spiraled into bankroll degeneracy was because the losses in any one game / session / day meant too much to me. This got me thinking as to what would be an acceptable ‘daily loss’ for me personally, how much of my bankroll could I lose in any given day and really just shrug it off and not be phased? I decided on about 5%, if I’m playing with 100 units of bankroll and lose 10 in one day, the next day I’ve lost 10% of my BR and to me I think that would feel pretty significant. But if I still had 95 units of bankroll left I don’t think I’d feel nearly as bad, that 5% would make a fair difference. In light of this I’ve decided as part of my Bankroll Management Policy, I never want to risk more than 5% of my bankroll in any given day.

I then started thinking about what this means in terms of buy ins. In a ‘worst case scenario', how many buy ins could I lose in one day? I wouldn’t want to stop after losing just one buy in, that can happen at the best of times… not even two, I thought by the time I was approaching 3 or 4 – especially as I start to move up the stakes, this would be a bit more significant. By the time I lost 5 buy ins in one day I think a break for the rest of the day would be wise. Because of this and because I decided I didn’t want to risk more than 5% of my BR in any given day, I decided that 5 buyins couldn’t account for more than 5% of my total BR – that’s how I came at the figure of 100 buy ins for any given stake, because if you are playing with 100 buy ins for any given stake, 5 buy ins will never account for than 5% of your bankroll.

The only exception to the 100 buy in rule I’ve decided will be the first buy in - $2. As I don't have $200 to deposit at the moment I would be unable to play for about a week, but more than this as the sums are so small, so the effect of losing a slightly larger percentage of the bankroll should not be very significant. The reason I struggled so much with this stake in the past is because I was not looking at the long term picture, well actually I was, the problem was I hadn’t assimilated and absorbed the ‘longer term picture’ at my deepest innermost level of thinking. I also had the nagging personal issues that I mentioned in the background which is why my discipline and ability to play sensible +ev poker just completely crumbled after the smallest of losses.

I now realise that EV is about the average profitiability of a descision over many thousands of hands and of almost no consequence, from a results perspective, in any one hand. This is something that I now feel I intuitively understand and coupled with the personal background noise I think I've made a good start at eliminating I'm sure I'm now going to be able to crush these small stakes.

So not only have I made big changes to my poker after some careful thinking about where it’s all been going wrong, but I’ve made some pretty big life-changes – which are going to have as much positive impact on my life as a whole as they are my poker!

Everyone here that has contributed to this development by spending your valuable time answering questions, and pointing out idiotic mistakes over the past few months thank you - and thanks for having the patience to continue offering your advice despite the constant failed attempts I had at implementing it.

I read before that poker is such a good game for the way it strips down everyone to their basic motivations and true self – for the way it reveals peoples characters. I’ve come to realize over the past few days just how true that is.

So thanks again – I think I may actually have a half decent chance of turning things around. OK, diatribe over, just wanted to share my progress so far with you all.

My plans for the coming couple of months are to climb up the micro stakes as and when buy ins allow. Once I pass 2nl the increase in BR has to be pure profit, no depositing in a futile attempt to cut the learning process. I'm going to deposit $30 soon and play 2nl. I'm going to add tables in as per Chardrians earlier advice (add 1 table @ $40, another @ $50 etc... dropping one out if the bankroll should dip by $10).

Goals for the coming two months: -

2nl (until BR reaches $500)
5nl (until BR reaches $1000)
10nl (until BR reaches $2500)

Slevin,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

After quite a bit of thought, In light of all this I have decided to play with 200 buy ins for every stake >$2 that I play at...................................

..............Goals for the coming two months: -

2nl (until BR reaches $500)
5nl (until BR reaches $1000)
10nl (until BR reaches $2500)

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Which is it? 100 or 200 BI's?

Lets say its 100 (and the 200 was just a typo). You're starting with $30 amirite? So you need to win $470 before you'll move up (if you stick to your 100 BI rule). Lets assume a winrate of 5ptBB/100 for the craic.

(470/.2)(100)= 235,000 hands you need to put in before you hit 5nl (assuming no bonus/rakeback)

Somebody correct me if my maths are off. Im sorry Slevin but I would bet the farm that you aint sticking to 2nl for 235k hands

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm taking a break for a few months from FTR. I'd just like to thank everyone that's offered advice over the last few months, it's really appreciated - and I mean that. Cheers, good luck all.

---

[ ] took break for few months
[x] back after 5 days

It seems as though you can't stick to anything you say at all - being able to stick to some kind of plan is a key to poker and in fact life/success in anything we undertake.

We don't succeed in anything unless we plan it out and a failure to adhere to that plan will ultimately lead to failure or at least a setback.

Also, you seem to have some sort of epiphany every day. I'm not saying that you don't, I'm saying what ever poker related thoughts or ideas that you come up with are either wrong/bad or if even they are good - you fail to put them into practice.

1. Develop a plan that is achievable and you can stick to. 2nl until $500 is a bit ridiculous)
2. If your not sure on what plan is best, take advice.
3. Stick to the plan, try not to deviate. If you do deviate, realize and get back on track.
4. Not everything will go smoothly, be willing to accept losing some money some days. If you are playing good poker, even slightly better poker than everyone else at your level, you will win in the long run.
5. Post hands and accept ppls criticisms, people are here to help and will help if you stick to your plan.
6. Develop you multitabling skills, the more tables you can play the faster you can learn and move up.

Thats about it.

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. You obv have a problem with bankroll management. But maybe that's because it's hard to care about the game when you're buying in for $2. Either follow a BR management system that will move you out of 2nl as fast as possible (hint: it's not 200 buyins) or save up enough money so you have 30 buyins for a level where a buyin actually means something to you. Then move down if you lose 10 buyins. You're just going to fall into the same BR mismanagement trap if you play ridiculously overrolled. Not to mention that playing overrolled will cost you mad money in the long run. Just follow the normal BR management guidelines (30x is conservative, 20x is fine), and 4-table for christsakes, one-tabling 2nl is just depressing. You'll never get enough hands in to improve and move up. Seek advice and post hands when you have losing sessions. But, to be blunt, if you lose 30 buyins at 2nl you should quit and never play poker again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhBollocks

(470/.2)(100)= 235,000 hands you need to put in before you hit 5nl (assuming no bonus/rakeback)

Somebody correct me if my maths are off. Im sorry Slevin but I would bet the farm that you aint sticking to 2nl for 235k hands

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This is right.

Getting to $100 (for 20 buy-ins at 5NL) will take 35k hands. Odds are he won't even make it that long.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhBollocks

(470/.2)(100)= 235,000 hands you need to put in before you hit 5nl (assuming no bonus/rakeback)

Somebody correct me if my maths are off. Im sorry Slevin but I would bet the farm that you aint sticking to 2nl for 235k hands

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This is right.

Getting to $100 (for 20 buy-ins at 5NL) will take 35k hands. Odds are he won't even make it that long.

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Jesus thats a crapload of hands at 2nl. Id rather work at the cheezeburgers then deposit monies to make the cheezeburgers

Setting unrealistic goals is asking for failure, no one (except for crazy people) have the dedication to play over 200k hands at 2nl.

Why not set a more reasonable goal like 30 buyins for 5nl, 4 buyins for 10nl, still very strong BR management but more reasonable to achieve.

Because honestly if you attempt what you want you will fail/cheat and then feel bad.

Thanks for the comments all.

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Originally Posted by zook

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. You obv have a problem with bankroll management. But maybe that's because it's hard to care about the game when you're buying in for $2. Either follow a BR management system that will move you out of 2nl as fast as possible (hint: it's not 200 buyins) or save up enough money so you have 30 buyins for a level where a buyin actually means something to you. Then move down if you lose 10 buyins. You're just going to fall into the same BR mismanagement trap if you play ridiculously overrolled. Not to mention that playing overrolled will cost you mad money in the long run. Just follow the normal BR management guidelines (30x is conservative, 20x is fine), and 4-table for christsakes, one-tabling 2nl is just depressing. You'll never get enough hands in to improve and move up. Seek advice and post hands when you have losing sessions. But, to be blunt, if you lose 30 buyins at 2nl you should quit and never play poker again.

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This made a fair bit of sense . I'll adjust to follow this advice then thanks.

I've just purged my PT database and am going to start over playing 3, 3 hour sessions per day. Also I'm going to stop looking at the cashier in between sessions because that's just distracting.

Also have now replaced the sound card in my laptop so have sound again - will watch spendas microstakes video again before I start.

Starting BR: 42.90
Target BR: 100

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Originally Posted by fat-b

I'm about to deposit $30 (can't afford 50 at the moment)

THIS

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Do not play poker until you have money on the side where you can INVEST in, not throw away.

The way I see it, the type of player you are is: Either you're going to be playing desperate with the last bit of leftover money to deposit, or you're going to be splashing pots with money you think you can easily throw around via multi tables.

Every dime you drop in should be handled carefully.

Thanks for the advice but I don't think you understand that I'm not playing poker for fun, I'm trying to create a career out of it. Hence I'll be playing regardless of what money I have outside of poker for the next couple of months, also that's an old post - I have already re deposited since then if you'd read the newer posts.

Actually zooks advice was good thinking on it I may just wait until I can deposit more, and play a better stake.

I played against a "slevin1977" on UB a few nights ago at 10nl - that's not you, is it? I coughed up half a BI to you, if it was, tho'. vnh.

But this slevin was a nit - maybe different guy?

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Originally Posted by Robb

I played against a "slevin1977" on UB a few nights ago at 10nl - that's not you, is it? I coughed up half a BI to you, if it was, tho'. vnh.

But this slevin was a nit - maybe different guy?

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Well there's your answer.

And wait till you can deposit enough to play 100nl. It's way easier up here. Table select by searching for my screenname, cuz I always find the best games on PS.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

And wait till you can deposit enough to play 100nl. It's way easier up here.

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Lemme see...half a buy-in...that's <serious mental computations working...> like fifty bucks? Wait...I'm rolled for 100nl NOWWWWWWWWW!!!

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Originally Posted by Robb

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

And wait till you can deposit enough to play 100nl. It's way easier up here.

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Lemme see...half a buy-in...that's <serious mental computations working...> like fifty bucks? Wait...I'm rolled for 100nl NOWWWWWWWWW!!!

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Come on up.. The weather is nice.

lol guys,no robb that wasn't me ;-)

I was having a conversation with my father earlier and was speaking about my terrible past habbit of developing a bankroll, playing higher stakes and losing it... He said why don't you wait until you have enough to cover a go at the higher stake and enough to just drop back down to the lower stake if it doesn't work to get the money back... I said you've just more or less explained bankroll management that i've been studying for the last upteen weeks... and he said... bankroll management? thats just common sense insn't it? lol - was amusing but true and a bit of a reality check.

I've been playing a few $1 sng'slately and am enjoying them, I think I'll play a few more to build the bankroll a bit more enjoyable than multi tabling 2nl =)

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Bankroll management? thats just common sense insn't it? lol - was amusing but true and a bit of a reality check.

I've been playing a few $1 sng'slately and am enjoying them, I think I'll play a few more to build the bankroll a bit more enjoyable than multi tabling 2nl =)

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I was reading some of your bankroll management discussion. LoL. You don't 100 BI at the micros, and you'll go nuts playing that long. Spoony's recommendations are both nitty and reasonable.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.

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Looks like if you grind up to $100, you'd be ready for 5nl. I think his last line of "you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo" is important. It's not overnight that you'll turn poker into a revenue stream capable of making big dollars.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I was having a conversation with my father earlier and was speaking about my terrible past habbit of developing a bankroll, playing higher stakes and losing it... He said why don't you wait until you have enough to cover a go at the higher stake and enough to just drop back down to the lower stake if it doesn't work to get the money back... I said you've just more or less explained bankroll management that i've been studying for the last upteen weeks... and he said... bankroll management? thats just common sense insn't it? lol - was amusing but true and a bit of a reality check.

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I wish Zook was my father!!!! :(

Grinding up >>>> saving to play at a higher level, especially for you. Jumping to 5NL would probably be ok, but 10NL is too high.