Reparations

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm at the point where I'm scanning your conversations for my name on the off chance it's relevant to me. I saw it.

Fishing is not a menial job, it's a very important one. Stop insulting people like fishermen and farmers, the very people who put food on your plate. Even with globalism, it's farmers and fishermen who feed you and your family.

Menail means lacking in skill and prestige. Good luck if you think you can walk on to a fishing boat and perform to the same standard as these guys you're insulting. And lacking prestige? Again that shows your lack of respect. You think it lacks prestige? Well I don't.

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Ok you have a hard on for fishermen. I get it. And fine it's not unskilled labor, it's semi-skilled. My apologies to any fishermen who might be reading this.

And I'm sure they feel better knowing you hold them in such high esteem.

And lol that they are 'putting food on my plate', as if they're doing their job for my personal benefit. Don't they get paid? Would I starve if some guy in Grimsby didn't go fishing one day? lolololol That's like me saying there'd be no universities if it weren't for me.

The question remains, if their industry is unable to sustain them, is it better to try to revive a dying industry (which I don't think it is, but w/e) or to retrain them on something that is less likely to kill them and pays better?

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

The question remains, if their industry is unable to sustain them, is it better to try to revive a dying industry (which I don't think it is, but w/e) or to retrain them on something that is less likely to kill them and pays better?

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I wonder if you'll be saying this when the universities die

Spoiler: Show

youtube will replace education in 20 years

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Originally Posted by TheSpoonald

I wonder if you'll be saying this when the universities die

Spoiler: Show

youtube will replace education in 20 years

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I'll be retired by then.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

I'll be retired by then.

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You think so?

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That's like me saying there'd be no universities if it weren't for me.

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There would be no universities if it wasn't for people like you.

I don't have a hard on for fishermen. I just respect the fact they take daily risks to feed people. Yes they get paid, of course they do. But not as much as, say, a fireman. And no you wouldn't starve if a fisherman in Grimsby thought "fuck this shit". But if ALL fishermen stopped working, and ALL farmers, then you'd better get yourself a hunting rifle.

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The question remains, if their industry is unable to sustain them, is it better to try to revive a dying industry (which I don't think it is, but w/e) or to retrain them on something that is less likely to kill them and pays better?

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The industry would be able to support them if they were allowed unrestricted access to territorial waters.

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I'll be retired by then.

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So you don't give a fuck about your younger colleagues?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I don't have a hard on for fishermen. I just respect the fact they take daily risks to feed people.

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I don't know why you're romanticising them this way. They're not going out there thinking 'holy fuck if i dont do this the country will starve.' They're probably thinking 'i wish there was a better way to make a living than risking my life and going home smelling like fish every day.'

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Yes they get paid, of course they do. But not as much as, say, a fireman. And no you wouldn't starve if a fisherman in Grimsby thought "fuck this shit". But if ALL fishermen stopped working, and ALL farmers, then you'd better get yourself a hunting rifle.

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More likely scenario is they overfish and in 20 years there's none left.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

The industry would be able to support them if they were allowed unrestricted access to territorial waters.

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Remember that report that I cited showing they've been catching more fish the last few years than before then? They're hardly suffering from fish theft.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

So you don't give a fuck about your younger colleagues?

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Sure I do. I just accept that times change and if your job becomes obsolete you need to find a new job, not ask for your obsolete job to be propped up for your sake.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

Sure I do. I just accept that times change and if your job becomes obsolete you need to find a new job, not ask for your obsolete job to be propped up for your sake.

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^Message for educators. Your job is 95% karaoke already. Learn to code!

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I don't know why you're romanticising them this way. They're not going out there thinking 'holy fuck if i dont do this the country will starve.' They're probably thinking 'i wish there was a better way to make a living than risking my life and going home smelling like fish every day.'

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Sure. Meanwhile, there's probably tons of policemen who think they could be doing something less stressful, or doctors who wish they were Premier League footballers. This is no reason to not respect the job they do.

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More likely scenario is they overfish and in 20 years there's none left.

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It's like you think fish remain in the same waters, and don't fuck.

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Sure I do. I just accept that times change and if your job becomes obsolete you need to find a new job, not ask for your obsolete job to be propped up for your sake.

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If people stop eating fish, this idea you have about "obsolete jobs" might be valid.

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It's like you think fish remain in the same waters, and don't fuck.

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This is wide of the mark. It amuses me to imagine you thinking that fish don't fuck, but what you're actually suggesting is that we're stupid enough to hunt fish to extinction. Clearly we are not.

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Originally Posted by TheSpoonald

^Message for educators. Your job is 95% karaoke already. Learn to code!

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lol, what do you think I do - just teach? I do research mostly, and that includes my own coding, my own stats, my own writing.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

This is wide of the mark. It amuses me to imagine you thinking that fish don't fuck, but what you're actually suggesting is that we're stupid enough to hunt fish to extinction. Clearly we are not.

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That's kinda what the quota system is about.

But anyways, you clearly can't be bothered to learn even the basics of the issue so there's no point discussing it further.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

But anyways, you clearly can't be bothered to learn even the basics of the issue so there's no point discussing it further.

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We're off topic anyway. Since you seem to be the only one unequivocally in support of reparations, can you answer the question in the OP?

Who pays? And who gets paid?

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

That's kinda what the quota system is about.

But anyways, you clearly can't be bothered to learn even the basics of the issue so there's no point discussing it further.

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Amusing. We've already been through this. That is not what the quotas are about, if they were you don't allow someone else to fish the waters. It's funny how you accuse me of being unwilling to learn while continuing to make the same incorrect argument despite being told it's wrong.

Also, even if it were about sustainability, which it's not, but let's say it is... quotas are there to enforce a limit on fishing until stocks replenish, not stop fishing forever in an area.

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Who pays? And who gets paid?

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The German taxpayer; me.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

The legacy of racism is strong in our culture. There's no denying it. A simple look at the recent census data for St Louis shows that white and black communities are very much still a thing. It's like half the city is one color, the other half the other color (red and blue on the census map, but whatever).

The legacy of institutional racism is still strong.

All of this is deplorable.

However, not caused by any active tempering by the feds. So you can't point your finger at the US gov't and blame them for the current state of things in any direct manner.
They'd have a claim that they've been actively trying to stamp down racism in law. It is illegal to discriminate based on race for any national matter, AFAIK.

So while there is this legacy... it's not been actively supported by the gov't for almost 150 years.

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Just because you can't single out one cause doesn't mean there isn't discrimination. You don't go from counterintelpro, Jim Crow laws and the migrant worker crisis to a post racial utopia in less than 50 years. Where do you get 150 years from?
A lot of people directly affected by those are still alive. Just because it's not happening currently, doesn't mean it has no lasting effect. If you start from a lower socioeconomic standing you're going to have less chances in life.

I get sick to my stomach every time someone points out what a success Trump is. He inherited 500 million. He could afford to fail over and over again, and still he defaulted on hundreds of millions more in loans, quite possibly being worth less today than what his father left him. If you come from a wealthier background you can fail a lot more often. The average white kid is backed by a family with 15x the wealth of the average black family. So if you're white you're more likely to be able to afford a better education, pay for a wedding, afford birth control, pay for tuition, take a risk on a business idea etc...

If you think the much lower socioeconomic standing of blacks in the US has nothing to do with the very recent history of systemic racial discrimination in the US I'd love for you to tell me why you don't think those are factors, and what your alternative explanation for such an enormous discrepancy in wealth is.

And while there is no federal discrimination, there is a clear discrimination in the courts. If you adjust for wealth these numbers would probably a lot closer since your net worth is directly tied to the sentence you can expect to get, but this is why I think reparations of a magnitude that would shock you are justified. You'd probably do that with a negative tax or something like that, but I think it's laughable that you can bail out billionaires for trillions out of the federal budget, but you can't spend money to fix shocking racial disparities in a post apartheid society.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...on-race-booker

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Originally Posted by oskar

If you start from a lower socioeconomic standing you're going to have less chances in life.

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85% of those born into the bottom quintile of wealth in America move out of that quintile within 1 generation. 15% of those at the top move all the way to the bottom. And there is shitloads of movement in between. What you just said there is only kinda-maybe true. "less chances", maybe. less than enough chances....no

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I get sick to my stomach every time someone points out what a success Trump is. He inherited 500 million

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Lots of people inherit 500 million. Only one of them is President. If you're telling me that Trump is not successful....you're out of your mind.

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you're white you're more likely to be able to afford a better education, pay for a wedding, afford birth control, pay for tuition, take a risk on a business idea etc...

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Condoms are less than a buck. Everything else on that list is not necessary for prosperity.

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If you think the much lower socioeconomic standing of blacks in the US has nothing to do with the very recent history of systemic racial discrimination in the US I'd love for you to tell me why you don't think those are factors, and what your alternative explanation for such an enormous discrepancy in wealth is.

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See post #25. Some science for ya. Teenage pregnancy, high school dropouts, and unmarried parents having babies. There is nothing systemic about that. None of those things are the result of racial discrimination. They're personal choices.

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And while there is no federal discrimination, there is a clear discrimination in the courts. If you adjust for wealth these numbers would probably a lot closer since your net worth is directly tied to the sentence you can expect to get,

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So just so we understand each other here, tell me if I understand this right. What you're saying here has no relevance or importance to anyone, black or white, who has not committed a crime, right? This only matters to criminals, right? So to avoid this problem...what must a young black man do, hmm? Hint: OBEY THE LAW

Do you think the Judges are racist? Or do you just think that poor people can't afford good lawyers? Is that the courts fault? Or the lawyers? Is that systemic? Or the market?

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but this is why I think reparations of a magnitude that would shock you are justified

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Who pays? And who gets paid?

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but you can't spend money to fix shocking racial disparities in a post apartheid society.

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Would spending money actually fix racial disparities? Are you telling me that if we institute reparations....then overnight black people will be completely equal across all dimensions and we can declare once and for all that we have a society free of racism?

No? No that probably wouldn't happen?

Then what's the point of reparations? if it won't help things....why do it?

How would you measure success? And if reparations are not successful.....do black people have to give the money back?

Could it be that the the DNC actually has no message for black people in 2020. Could it be that Trump's economy has actually helped the working class? Could it be that black people are actually doing alot better today than they were under a black president? How is that gonna win votes in 2020?

Could it be that the DNC is just pandering and fear-mongering? "Grrrr, the evil white man wants to hold you down...but we're gonna make him give you money, mwah ha ha ha!"

It's insincere. And it's a total power grab, just like their new push to get inmates to vote. The dems don't actually care about these things. They just see an untapped resource of votes, and will say anything to accumulate power.

I was really just looking for the Chapelle skit, but I accidentally came across this version. Someone cut it up and spliced it with some rantings from an angry black dude.

Angry black dude makes some decent points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W234NiTkBO4

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If you start from a lower socioeconomic standing you're going to have less chances in life.

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So how do you suggest everyone starts life with equal socioeconomic status? Redistribution of wealth?

If I were a drug dealer in USA, I'd be excited by that prospect.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

If I were a drug dealer in USA, I'd be excited by that prospect.

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... because if you eliminate poverty, the poor will have more money to buy drugs?

Yup, I think what the Warren is running on is probably the most sensible proposal that could realistically happen in the next 10 years. - A wealth tax which would be a comprehensive way to eliminate the ways in which large corporations, through lobbying and elaborate tax evasion schemes get away with paying zero or negative income tax while making billions in profits - and you turn that system on its head. Lower or negative tax for working class people - it would be pretty easy to work proactive reparations into something like this.

The current tax system in the US and EU is a utopian welfare state for billionaires that the working class pays for. God bless the french for having the clarity of mind to freak the fuck out over this. Even after decades of talking to muricans it still makes me dizzy how they can live with the cognitive dissonance of: virtually no tax on the super rich cause capitalism, but tax the fuck out of the working class because not struggling to make ends meet while working a 50h job would be communism!

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... because if you eliminate poverty, the poor will have more money to buy drugs?

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Pretty much, yeah.

I dunno about USA, but here in the UK (we're still EU), tax is pretty low for low income earners. I've just applied for an 18 hour a week job, if I get it I'll pay £0 tax and £0 National Insurance. I've also applied for another job at 8 hours a week. Let's say I get both... now I'm paying £0 tax and £410 NI.

I want a tax break dammit! I'm poor!

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Originally Posted by oskar

Even after decades of talking to muricans it still makes me dizzy how they can live with the cognitive dissonance of: virtually no tax on the super rich cause capitalism, but tax the fuck out of the working class because not struggling to make ends meet while working a 50h job would be communism!

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If you can't figure it out after decades, then maybe there is something wrong with your premise.

Exactly how much tax does the working class pay?

I'm skeptical of the "virtually no tax on the super rich" part. I keep hearing that Amazon paid no tax despite 11B in profits. Do you believe that? It was on Fox News, so I'm guessing you don't

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Pretty much, yeah.

I dunno about USA, but here in the UK (we're still EU), tax is pretty low for low income earners. I've just applied for an 18 hour a week job, if I get it I'll pay £0 tax and £0 National Insurance. I've also applied for another job at 8 hours a week. Let's say I get both... now I'm paying £0 tax and £410 NI.

I want a tax break dammit! I'm poor!

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HOLY SHIT the pound tanked, wtf did you guys do lol.

Wait, you won't pay NI, but I assume you're still insured and it will count towards your unemployment/retirement?

banana, I'm not going to google for you. They pay no federal income tax. No federal income tax is different from "no tax."

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Wait, you won't pay NI, but I assume you're still insured and it will count towards your unemployment/retirement?

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Yup, which some might call "negative tax".

The pound tanked? Awesome, my pokerstars balance just increased without me playing a hand.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Yup, which some might call "negative tax".

The pound tanked? Awesome, my pokerstars balance just increased without me playing a hand.

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Making lemonade!
I got a polish coworker who commutes from poland every week who told me last year he's shopping for bicycle frames in the UK because it's cheaper than poland. I just remembered that. I knew it tanked, I didn't know it's almost 1:1 to the euro now. yikes!

Weaker pound is good for tourism, and good for exports. It's bad for imports and holidays abroad.

I'd rather see a weak pound than a strong one. We want tourism, and we want people to buy our stuff. We want to encourage business to make things ourselves rather than import things. And it's better if British people go on holiday to Cornwall or the Lake District, rather than Ibiza and Turkey.

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Originally Posted by oskar

They pay no federal income tax. No federal income tax is different from "no tax."

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Who? The working class? Or Amazon?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Pretty much, yeah.

I dunno about USA, but here in the UK (we're still EU), tax is pretty low for low income earners. I've just applied for an 18 hour a week job, if I get it I'll pay £0 tax and £0 National Insurance. I've also applied for another job at 8 hours a week. Let's say I get both... now I'm paying £0 tax and £410 NI.

I want a tax break dammit! I'm poor!

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So you think making poor people even poorer and rich people even richer is going to make a better society? How's that work?

I make an above-average wage and I pay a greater percentage of taxes than someone who is poor. Yet I'm ok with that cause I'm not a selfish cunt.

You are selfish. You want us to have another vote because YOU didn't like the result, while mocking and patronising me for showing solidarity and respect for people like fishermen, people who I don't actually have any contact with. I made my vote based on what I thought was best for the UK, not me as an individual.

Besides, I don't know how you got that from my post. My point was that we have a reasonable tax regime already, that supports poor people at the expense of high earners. Can you please explain to me how you think I support the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer from my comments about me paying no tax? Did I imply that I want to pay more tax?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

You are selfish.

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I'm paying taxes so you don't have to work. Which one of us is selfish?

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

making poor people even poorer and rich people even richer

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Is that really what's happening?

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

I'm paying taxes so you don't have to work. Which one of us is selfish?

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If you want to play that game, I work for a charity, giving up my time for nothing. Hand over a day's wages every week to charity and then I'll apologise for calling you selfish.

Oh, and explain how I'm selfish based on my comments in the post that triggered that claim.

Paying taxes isn't a choice you make. If someone said to you "would you like to pay zero tax" you would snap their hand off. You wouldn't give a second thought to how that impacts on those who rely on the taxpayer to survive.


It's amusing, because two years ago or so I'd have agreed that I'm selfish. I didn't want to work and was happy to accept taxpayer's money. But times change. I'm 40 and don't particularly want to spend the next 25 years being supported by others. That's why I'm working for a charity, that's why I'm applying for jobs. I enjoy my charity work enough that I would like to continue, even if I get work elsewhere. That will depend on my hours and commitments, but the will is there.

Calling me selfish at this moment in time is incorrect. It's even more so based on the post I made, I mean you somehow managed to assume that I want poor people to be poorer, simply from me pointing out I'd pay no tax if I got both the jobs I've applied for. That's pretty fucking creative.

Reparations is one of those things that always gets brought up before elections to get votes from a bunch of dumb motherfuckers and that nobody gives a shit about otherwise because it's clear that it's completely unworkable.