Randomness thread, part two.

Economics is the evaluation of production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. Capitalism is a political policy theory for how to best do that when the goals are abundance and prosperity.

These two things can clearly never be equal, but in my wacky brain, if capitalism is the only economic theory by which the goals of abundance and prosperity is achieved, you might be able to set them equal to each other in some sense.

Maybe it's like saying "mathematics is the universe". That's probably true and not true at the same time.

Anyways, I apologize for any confusion. This should have been cleared up much earlier, but I didn't realize it was a problem.

It should be noted that this is all a bad line for me to take. There's a whole lot of repetition in our economics discussions because different people pop in and out at different times and often the same questions or points are covered. Sometimes I'll say something a little outrageous because it keeps me fresh and engaged.

Suck dicks, foreign scum!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R5A0pg4oN8

Today, like all days since 1776, is America day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFVdvXGIT34

http://i.imgur.com/baZp0tM.jpg

People do silly things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

TL;DR

A special organ was made to play a piece of music with the tempo indicated as "as slowly as possible."
The organ is playing a 639 year long version of the piece.
The next note change isn't until 2020.

lol... dem links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longplayer
A 1,000 year long song? ummmm OK....?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

People do silly things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

TL;DR

A special organ was made to play a piece of music with the tempo indicated as "as slowly as possible."
The organ is playing a 639 year long version of the piece.
The next note change isn't until 2020.

lol... dem links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longplayer
A 1,000 year long song? ummmm OK....?

---

lol art

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

People do silly things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

TL;DR

A special organ was made to play a piece of music with the tempo indicated as "as slowly as possible."
The organ is playing a 639 year long version of the piece.
The next note change isn't until 2020.

lol... dem links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longplayer
A 1,000 year long song? ummmm OK....?

---

there's something interesting to that in theory.. it makes me think about plants and their dimension of time, how it's on such a radically elongated scale in comparison to ours.

because plants grow so slowly, we need time-lapse videos that condense years into minutes to actually understand their behavior. we could never observe it in real time. same with this: you would have to speed up the music to actually understand it.

even though it would put the pattern of the whole into relief, it would still be fundamentally different. it would be like a miniature version of a sculpture as large as the planet - it's impossible to see all at once with your scope of vision.

these are just my initial thoughts knowing little detail about this. i don't really see this as music, more like meta-music, music about music, music deconstructing music. it's not an act of aesthetic creation. reading about this a bit more makes it apparent that it's concerned with a variety of things that fall outside of the realm of what's considered "pure" music.

Today a sparrowhawk swooped into our garden and attacked a dove. The hawk was disturbed and flew off, leaving the dove minus a couple of wing feathers, some down fluff, and an eye.

We left it out of reach of cats, but it's a sitting duck for birds of prey.

A few of my friends think we should've taken it to a vet to be put out of its misery "humanely". Well, that dove might be an owl's dinner, and if the owl didn't have that easy kill, he might take something healthy. I prefer nature to humane. Nature is a bitch, but it's also awesome.

Sparrowhawks are awesome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

A few of my friends think we should've taken it to a vet to be put out of its misery "humanely".

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The bold is absolutely hilarious to me. Nothing wrong with stomping its head for the same purpose.

So this guy where my other bitch works was like, "You're breathtaking like a snow capped mountain." I just felt like sharing this because it's so hilariously and uncomfortably bad.

As you might expect from a female that I've thoroughly trained, she replied with some stinging remark about how if he thought she was the shit, he should see her man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

The bold is absolutely hilarious to me. Nothing wrong with stomping its head for the same purpose.

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I agree.

The dove actually has a chance of survival though. He's taken refuge in a large pile of leaves in an enclosed bit of the garden next to the house, where foxes and cats won't dare go by day. He can hide in the leaves, and we can leave it food and water. He's vulnerable at night though because the fox will be more daring by night. Just depends if he gets an easier meal elsewhere.

It seems the dove didn't lose an eye, it merely had feathers obscuring it, making it appear like it had lost an eye. He might recover, he just needs to regain flight.

I know there's no poker in the commune and all of that, but you guys have been complaining about the lack of new blood for a while.

I've been running a NLHE Foundations Course in the BC and SSNL forums for the past few weeks that has gotten a number of new sign-ups for the forum, and I've been encouraging those new sign-ups to participate in the FTR Community forum.

Naturally, they're a little shy. If you guys could come chime in in the main thread for the NLHE Foundations Course and help me to encourage these newbies to come hang out in here and waste their lives away, that would be great.

Bill Nye cracking me up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eqCaiwmr_M

Amy Schumer is alright-looking for a fat broad, and she's kind of funny sometimes.

NPR was on fire today.

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsand...so-why-go-back

And this one had one haunting bit with some kid with aids on audio panicking to his father that he doesn't feel good and that he wants to go to the hospital, he begins failing minutes later and dies the next day. Just something about thinking about dying from AIDs... man.

https://hereandnow.wbur.org/2015/07/...y-aids-project

So guys, where's all the happiness in the world? Just point me on, if you would.

Puppies.

Tho I prefer kittens.

Rilla, Google deaf baby hearing for first time, will make you feel good.

So, transgenders. Is this just pc bs, or should I actually support them?

John Oliver says I should. But it just seems so bizarre. His episode on it didn't seem like it had any teeth either, and other proponents don't really have much to say other than "I feel like the wrong sex". Isn't this just genetics? I can't exactly go around saying I'm a giant living in a short guy's body...that's insane. Some pepole have naturally weird hormone levels, and genitalia that is naturally fuck ed up, but even then...you aren't somehow a different gender.

And what does a different gender even mean? Surely girls don't all wear dresses, nor wear lipstick, nor pee sitting down. Men don't all drink beer, like sports, and say "dude". So feeling "like a woman"....huh? Its ok to like opera as a dude, you aren't somehow an actual real life girl now because of it.


Add to that studies about suicide rates post-op, and studies that say these feelings completely vanish 80% of the time....and it all seems like pure applesauce

http://i.imgur.com/agOtoMo.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

So, transgenders. Is this just pc bs, or should I actually support them?

John Oliver says I should. But it just seems so bizarre. His episode on it didn't seem like it had any teeth either, and other proponents don't really have much to say other than "I feel like the wrong sex". Isn't this just genetics? I can't exactly go around saying I'm a giant living in a short guy's body...that's insane. Some pepole have naturally weird hormone levels, and genitalia that is naturally fuck ed up, but even then...you aren't somehow a different gender.

And what does a different gender even mean? Surely girls don't all wear dresses, nor wear lipstick, nor pee sitting down. Men don't all drink beer, like sports, and say "dude". So feeling "like a woman"....huh? Its ok to like opera as a dude, you aren't somehow an actual real life girl now because of it.


Add to that studies about suicide rates post-op, and studies that say these feelings completely vanish 80% of the time....and it all seems like pure applesauce

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On the most basic level, wanting to mutilate your genitalia is likely to be highly correlated with mental illness. With that having been said, I completely support people having the right to do that if they are screened for mental disorders, etc., before the fact to protect people from themselves. They do it for women who want to have their tubes done (and a number of other surgeries), so I don't see how this is really any different regarding checking for mental health to protect the patient.

With the Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner situation, for example, I think this individual has every right in the world to dress how this individual wants and do present themselves how this individual wants as long as it's done in a responsible way that doesn't hurt other people. With Jenner in particular, I think he went about it in an extremely responsible way with making sure that the kids were grown and able to understand what was going on. What I'm saying is that if you have an eight year old and all of a sudden daddy is mommy, there's a good chance that it's going to inflict some kind of harm on the kid's psyche. I also think that people need to understand that what this person did cost over $4 million, so results may vary.

If someone wants to live their lives as a member of the opposite sex, then I think he or she should have every right to do that. However, if they look ugly and fucked up because they don't have $4 million to pour into it, then I think other people should have every right to point that out and treat them accordingly. If a person does decide to do this kind of thing and ends up completely miserable and wants to off themselves, then good for them. If it makes them super happy and keeps them from offing themselves, then that's cool too. It's not really any of my business at this point until I start getting discriminated against over it.

In terms of sexuality, I went on multiple dates with someone who identified as being transgender around eight or nine years ago. I called this individual she because that was the individual's preference, and I was being respectful of that, but the fact of the matter is that anyone would have called this person she if you saw her out in public. There was nothing atypical about seeing this person compared to the dozens of females I've been out with, and if I had met her in public without knowing she had a penis, then I would have had a hard time picking up on it from appearances/behavior. I even stopped seeing her because she was batshit crazy, which has happened several times with females, so it was just another bitch to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

So, transgenders. Is this just pc bs, or should I actually support them?

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

John Oliver says I should. But it just seems so bizarre. His episode on it didn't seem like it had any teeth either, and other proponents don't really have much to say other than "I feel like the wrong sex". Isn't this just genetics? I can't exactly go around saying I'm a giant living in a short guy's body...that's insane. Some pepole have naturally weird hormone levels, and genitalia that is naturally fuck ed up, but even then...you aren't somehow a different gender.

And what does a different gender even mean? Surely girls don't all wear dresses, nor wear lipstick, nor pee sitting down. Men don't all drink beer, like sports, and say "dude". So feeling "like a woman"....huh? Its ok to like opera as a dude, you aren't somehow an actual real life girl now because of it.


Add to that studies about suicide rates post-op, and studies that say these feelings completely vanish 80% of the time....and it all seems like pure applesauce

---

Louis Theroux did a new docu on transgender kids. Interesting, but not much of an eye opener for me. I think that if I woke up with a vagina tomorrow I'd be bummed out for a while but then I'd just roll with it. But then that's not really something you can really judge without experiencing it. I only became more aware of it when Scarlett came on the scene in sc2. She was easily the top foreigner, meaning non-korean, in sc2 for a while. And when you see her you don't think: that's a weird looking dude. It's just some girl. Some girl that gets a horrendous amount of harassment on social media for being a guy. It's ridiculous how much these people get bullied. That alone makes me want to step back and make it none of my business.

If I woke up with a vagina I wouldn't be unhappy about it until I was bored of playing with it, which would probably take months.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

So, transgenders. Is this just pc bs, or should I actually support them?

John Oliver says I should. But it just seems so bizarre. His episode on it didn't seem like it had any teeth either, and other proponents don't really have much to say other than "I feel like the wrong sex". Isn't this just genetics? I can't exactly go around saying I'm a giant living in a short guy's body...that's insane. Some pepole have naturally weird hormone levels, and genitalia that is naturally fuck ed up, but even then...you aren't somehow a different gender.

And what does a different gender even mean? Surely girls don't all wear dresses, nor wear lipstick, nor pee sitting down. Men don't all drink beer, like sports, and say "dude". So feeling "like a woman"....huh? Its ok to like opera as a dude, you aren't somehow an actual real life girl now because of it.


Add to that studies about suicide rates post-op, and studies that say these feelings completely vanish 80% of the time....and it all seems like pure applesauce

---

I've seen a lot of ladyboys in asia, but other than that I don't have much personal experience with TG people. It seems fairly harmless to accept them into society. I draw the line at having taxpayer dollars pay for their reassignment surgery, personally. There's nothing about gender identity that requires having matching genitalia and hormones, TG people are living proof of that.

Yeah I think its easy to look at this as being PC liberals going one step further, but the key distinction is that TG people aren't forcing anything onto anyone, they're just trying to be the way they are. Contrast with the current liberal Islam apologism which is definitely an example of it going too far to accept a clear threat to western culture as we know it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDhY7TilfTg

Trans people are real. Your brain mismatched with your body. Life is gonna be rough. I'll do a little not to pile on but making it work is primarily on your shoulders. And because I'm not trans and any kids I might have are overwhelmingly unlikely to be trans, I don't really care.

I don't see how people can embrace transgender people as being a real thing while simultaneously rejecting the notion that gender roles are based in nature. (not aimed at anyone in particular, especially anyone from FTR)

If their brains make them want to act in certain ways because their brains are naturally [gender A], then that means [gender A] has a natural fucking gender role.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

If their brains make them want to act in certain ways because their brains are naturally [gender A], then that means [gender A] has a natural fucking gender role.

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I... think... I agree with this.

However you feel, and whatever your package, that's a recurring role in nature.
Unless you claim to be a mutant.
In which case... don your spandex and be the superhero the world needs.

I also agree that they can do whatever surgery they want to themselves.

I think using tax dollars to subsidize cosmetic surgery is a bad idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I don't see how people can embrace transgender people as being a real thing while simultaneously rejecting the notion that gender roles are based in nature. (not aimed at anyone in particular, especially anyone from FTR)

If their brains make them want to act in certain ways because their brains are naturally [gender A], then that means [gender A] has a natural fucking gender role.

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Because they don't give a crap about the truth of the matter, so they'll reject the notion of a gendered brain. Or embrace some neural-fluidity in structure.

Quote:

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Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.



They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006). “It’s the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised,” Guillamon says.




In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person’s brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007). “Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female,” says Guillamon.

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https://www.newscientist.com/article...-on-brain-scan

So, i hope its clear that im super anti bullying and heavily into a "do what you want, but leave me alone" attitude. I asked this question because 1) this threadneeded a bumb, and 2) I'm unsure of whether the State should act.

Anyway, i Just found out one of my fiance's friends, whom I've met on a few occasions and has a few kids, is a post FtM.

Didn't know that. Feel like he should be allowed in guy bathrooms too. Fiance explained the friend's feelings as "looking into a mirror, and seeing the wrong face". That shits creepy, but it does away with this "what is male" stuff. I can totally getbehind that too.

It's a close friend of his, so I didn't press deeper, but I'm still questioning whether this is a mental health defect that should be treated or embraced. Anorexic people see the wrong face too, but I wasn't about to sleep on the couch by raising that point.

@rilla: I'm hopeful that there is some evidence that this is a thing, but the study doesn't seem like a whole lot right now. Small sample sizes, no discussion of how white matter behaves in patients with mental health issues, and more. Still, I'm hopeful. It's a great start, and if it's a real thing then early identification would be spectacular.

Quote:

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Feel like he should be allowed in guy bathrooms too.

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I guess FtM is female to male. I don't see what the problem with him using dude toilets. In fact it would be inappropriate for him to use female toilets if he looks like a dude, it would freak the women out if he used the lady's. People use the toilet to urinate, not to look at dicks or whatever a homophobe thinks a non-straight or non-normal person is doing in the toilet. I haven't got a problem with women using the men's toilets if the queue is too long for theirs and they're desperate, so I haven't got a problem with woofters or transgenders or whoever using the bogs. If I feel awakward, it's my problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XEAWHrSna0

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I guess FtM is female to male. I don't see what the problem with him using dude toilets. In fact it would be inappropriate for him to use female toilets if he looks like a dude, it would freak the women out if he used the lady's. People use the toilet to urinate, not to look at dicks or whatever a homophobe thinks a non-straight or non-normal person is doing in the toilet. I haven't got a problem with women using the men's toilets if the queue is too long for theirs and they're desperate, so I haven't got a problem with woofters or transgenders or whoever using the bogs. If I feel awakward, it's my problem.

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It Seattle, plenty of places have signs that read, "MEN (or people who look like men)" and "WOMEN (or people who look like women)" on their bathroom doors.

I think in the interest of equality we need more derogatory names for transgenders. There's tons for bummers. I can only think of "tranny" for transgenders. Maybe I'm showing my blissful naivity here. Enlighten me, FTR.

I thought "tranny" was a transvestite.

I guess it works for both.

It's not bullying just because you hurt someone's feelings. Because I'm sure he won't mind using him as an example as long as I reference weed, if I call OngBonga a welfare queen, that's not bullying. If I told OngBonga in person that I was going to beat the shit out of him if he didn't give me his weed, then that would be bullying.

We're raising kids to be a bunch of fucking pussies. Violence is the answer sometimes.

I believe in gendered brains, but I also think that the differences between women and men are significantly molded by cultural assumptions about gender.

We think we know all about men and women because we live in a society where the gendered construct is binary. But it's actually not like that everywhere.

The Fa'afafines are the "third-gender" of Samoa. They are basically recognized as men who are women inside. Fa'afafines are raised as girls from a young age. Samoan society is very much structured around the division of labor in the family and community, and the sort of work you do depends on your gender. Many fa'afafines are boys who exhibited feminine traits at a young age and were raised as girls instead of boys. Some families try to push a son to be a fa'afafine, but, of course, not all little boys take to it. There are some cases where little boys are raised as Fa'afafines against their will, and, of course, that's really fucked up and damaging for them. Anyway ,Fa'afafines are largely accepted by society. Only a small minority of people actively reject any of their children being Fa'afafine. Also, Fa'afafines are not considered gay, and if a man sleeps with one, he is not considered gay either.

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine

(Of course,Fa'afafines are allowed to party and be promiscuous and flamboyant, while Samoan women are supposed to be modest, conservative, and stay sheltered. Fucking of course, lol.)

What's insanely fascinating to me is that if you watch them and listen to them, they sound exactly like women. It's really important to keep in mind that "female" or "women" here isn't a universal term. When I say they sound exactly like women, what I mean is, they sound exactly like the people in our society that were raised and identify as women.

They sound and even look like women, by which I mean that even the ones with more masculine features have facial expressions and dispositions that just make them appear female. Every single nuance in their movement, cadence, voice, everything is 100% feminine. There is a marked difference between them and ultra-feminine gay guys, or even MtF transgendered people, who transitioned later in life but were raised male. There are even fa'afafine who embraced it way later in life, and you can tell. The crucial difference is how you were raised in your formative years.

It really goes to show you just how much conditioning and how you're raised plays a role in your expression and understanding of your gender identity. The feminine ways I talk, walk, act, think, etc. aren't something I was just born with - I was taught these things through exposure, from being raised as a girl. It's not like we're born with feminine or masculine affectations; we learn these things.

Of course, this isn't to say that you can raise anyone however you want and they'll turn out that way, like they're some tabula rosa. Like I said, some men were raised as fa'afafine for whatever reason (probably to do with needing more female labor) when it wasn't in their nature, and it was very damaging to them. I would imagine, by the way, that this is how people who feel that they were born in the wrong body feel about their childhoods.

So much of how we think and act is based on cultural conditioning, and I believe it's truly naive to think otherwise. A lot of the way men and women express their gender comes from what we saw and how we were treated growing up. But I don't think that is mutually exclusive from believing in biological differences either -- hormones are real. Testosterone and estrogen aren't a myth. And sometimes, the way we are raised goes against what is innate in us, a possible indicator that each of us is born with some kind of innate sensibility.

I think that this cultural conditioning plays a role in body dysmorphia, and the desire of many trans people to change their physical appearance. There are even butch women who, while they identify as lesbian and female, feel uncomfortable with their wide, childbearing hips because it is a signifier of female fertility, and consequently female sexuality, which contradicts their more masculine gender expression.

And by the way, it's not like trans people have this all conclusively figured out either -- they don't, nor do any of them think they do (ok sure, maybe some do, but must we judge every group of people by their wrongest members?). Nothing you've guys discussed here hasn't been thoroughly discussed in trans spaces, especially academic ones. This may come as a surprise to some of you, but trans people aren't all just willful retards that don't put thought into what gender or sex means. They've thought about everything you've brought up here already, and things you probably haven't even conceived of yet. If any of you have sincere intellectual curiosity about the topic, I can point you to some great texts and authors. I don't expect any of you will, but that won't stop you from pontificating like you've got it all figured out. ;) (it's ok, that's what forums are for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV_g6X2PEvs this video is a good one just to get a sense of their mannerisms and disposition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9xvkCa63Js And this one is best for a more educational understanding -- includes a fa'afafine who came to it later in life, as well as a man raised as a fa'afafine when it wasn't in his nature

eta: Not all self-identified trans people feel the need to ever change their physical appearance. Some do, but not their genitalia or breasts. Also, not all trans people want to "pass" as the other sex, which comes as a huge shock to non trans people (then their heads promptly explode because they can't deal with it or relate to it on any level). There are endless permutations to how different trans people understand and live their experience, which is why it's pretty much impossible to judge the whole phenomenon by any one trans individual.

other thought: I think there is definitely something to be said for the fact that, by and large, most people are comfortable with the sex they were born as, and with the gender expression society expects them to have. So even though I believe that a lot of the affectations and disposition of "male" or "female" or learned and not innate, I believe the propensity for one or the other is innate. The fact that a certain percentage of people do not align with what is expected of them or how they were raised is, I believe, further proof that there is something biological that drives us.

I mean, really, isn't it the most obvious thing in the world that nature and nurture are working together in mysterious ways we'll never fully understand because none of us will ever, ever be able to look at it from a truly objective standpoint?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

It's not bullying just because you hurt someone's feelings. Because I'm sure he won't mind using him as an example as long as I reference weed, if I call OngBonga a welfare queen, that's not bullying. If I told OngBonga in person that I was going to beat the shit out of him if he didn't give me his weed, then that would be bullying.

We're raising kids to be a bunch of fucking pussies. Violence is the answer sometimes.

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I agree completely, even without the weed reference. Merely insulting someone is not bullying them. There's obviously exceptions, like mocking a special kid, but generally, kids need to learn to ignore insults. When it comes to threats, it's no good just saying "toughen up" because let's be honest, if spoon does threaten to beat the shit out of me if I don't give him my weed, punching him in the face might not suffice in dealing with the matter. He probably works out. I don't. But I'm still not taking that shit lying down. I'll tell him to come and fucking get it, then kick him in the shin with my steel toecap boot really fucking hard while he's moving towards me and watching my hands, maybe even a cheeky uppercut if he falls towards me, then laugh as he tries to stand upright. I might even rummage around in his pockets to see if he has any money. Cheeky twat.

Point is, I have a plan. It might not even work, I might still get the shit kicked out of me, but my mentality gives me a chance that faggots don't have.

Bullies prey on the weak. Don't be weak.

I hope this doesn't actually happen now, because I've given away my defence. Surprise plays a key role in the old kicky shinny trick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I agree completely, even without the weed reference. Merely insulting someone is not bullying them. There's obviously exceptions, like mocking a special kid, but generally, kids need to learn to ignore insults. When it comes to threats, it's no good just saying "toughen up" because let's be honest, if spoon does threaten to beat the shit out of me if I don't give him my weed, punching him in the face might not suffice in dealing with the matter. He probably works out. I don't. But I'm still not taking that shit lying down. I'll tell him to come and fucking get it, then kick him in the shin with my steel toecap boot really fucking hard while he's moving towards me and watching my hands, maybe even a cheeky uppercut if he falls towards me, then laugh as he tries to stand upright. I might even rummage around in his pockets to see if he has any money. Cheeky twat.

Point is, I have a plan. It might not even work, I might still get the shit kicked out of me, but my mentality gives me a chance that faggots don't have.

Bullies prey on the weak. Don't be weak.

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The bold is probably the funniest thing I've ever seen you say. I don't know why it struck me as being so funny except that I do not work out very often (or at all at this point).

There was a kid who lived on my road growing up who was in kindergarten here (age 5-6). He was the grandson of a very well-respected dairy farmer who was loved in the community for being a very solid older man who had contributed a lot to churches, charities and a lot of other shit. This man was raising his grandson after his daughter and her husband (the boy's parents) died somehow or another.

His grandson was being legitimately bullied on the school bus by a guy in the 5th or 6th grade (age 11-12) who was obviously too big for him to take on in any reasonable fashion. They had a meeting with the bully's parents and all of the normal stuff you would expect, but nothing really changed. This went on for a couple of weeks.

One day the little boy got on the bus and sat in his normal seat. His bully, who sat a couple of seats behind him, leaned up and smacked the kid across the back of the head.

As per his grandfather's instructions, the little guy proceeded to take half of a broken brick out of his bookbag, walked the few steps back to the bully and cracked him right in the fucking face with it repeatedly until someone pulled him off.

Little man was suspended from riding the bus for a couple of weeks as punishment, and his granddad had no problem taking him to school in the mornings instead. He also took him to see some movie he wanted to see as a reward for getting his balls up and standing up to the much larger bully in the scenario.

The bully's parents were pretty pissed, but there wasn't a lot they could do about it. Little man didn't get bullied by this kid anymore afterwards.

I just felt like sharing this story.

This is also related (and hilarious to me).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

the main thread for the NLHE Foundations Course

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https://i.imgur.com/qVfhQWh.webm

I don't take to the cultural influence ideas because, personally, I've never experienced it. Culture for me is commercialism. My parents were lassie-faire, so was my extended family, so were my teachers, friends, their parents, everyone.

I wonder if I were born a girl, if that would have been the case.

edit: maybe sports and school. Compete, keep a schedule, be responsible, be productive, etc etc. That's probably where culture got me.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I don't take to the cultural influence ideas because, personally, I've never experienced it. Culture for me is commercialism. My parents were lassie-faire, so was my extended family, so were my teachers, friends, their parents, everyone.

I wonder if I were born a girl, if that would have been the case.

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This response leads me to believe you have no idea what I mean by cultural/societal conditioning. You grew up around other people. You're not exempt.

Edit: I have no idea if your response was to me lol, a lot happened in this thread. Also sorry if it sounded a little mean, not intentional

Yeah, it was. If you're talking about culture influencing me so subtly, then why not call it life experience?

Culture influence to me sounds purposeful. The culture wants to assimilate you.

Awww, a girl has an opinion.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Yeah, it was. If you're talking about culture influencing me so subtly, then why not call it life experience?

Culture influence to me sounds purposeful. The culture wants to assimilate you.

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From day 1 we take cues from the people around us on gender (as well as, well.. pretty much everything else). You are raised as a boy so you take cues from the men in your life, or that you see on TV, on the street, wherever. Their mannerisms, affectations, disposition etc mold you, inform your understanding of what it means to be male.

You are assimilated into "manhood" by virtue of growing up and being raised as a man by other men who were also raised the same way. If you listen to audio recordings of people speak, you can tell, virtually every time, who is a man and a woman. This is not simply because of the register of their voice, it's because of subtle things like cadence, inflection, and intonation. Same with gait. Posture. Various affectations of the body and face.

These are things we absorb from an early age. Did you read my whole post? Fa'afafines are an excellent example of this. They are raised as girls and in turn come off virtually the exact same as females in the affectations I mentioned above. Watch the videos.

No one lives and grows in a bubble unless you literally are taken away into captivity and raised in a bubble. Generation from generation, we grow up and are shaped by what we see, and how we are treated. It's not some intentional conspiracy, it's just the nature of the beast.

The conclusion I reached for myself was that the propensity for feeling comfortable with a certain end of the masculine/feminine spectrum is innate, while the actual way we learn to be perform those identities is a social construct.


This is very, very interesting, and I think you will find it thought-provoking at the very least. Also has homeboy Thaddeus Russell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gChsrwUfNk8

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Awww, a girl has an opinion.

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I know, I'm very cute. Thanks for noticing.

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

From day 1 we take cues from the people around us on gender (as well as, well.. pretty much everything else). You are raised as a boy so you take cues from the men in your life, or that you see on TV, on the street, wherever. Their mannerisms, affectations, disposition etc mold you, inform your understanding of what it means to be male.

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I stole mannerisms, affectations, disposition, etc, as I discovered them from others and made them work for myself. Culture didn't do this to me, I did it to me.

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You are assimilated into "manhood" by virtue of growing up and being raised as a man by other men who were also raised the same way.

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I just had a pretty good conversation with some friends based on this article.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/seb...ar-f163804cbf6

The jist is that a lot of young men go to war to become men because our society lacks classic trials and demarcations between childhood and adulthood. I'm a man, quite frankly, because it just became about damn time I was one.

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If you listen to audio recordings of people speak, you can tell, virtually every time, who is a man and a woman. This is not simply because of the register of their voice, it's because of subtle things like cadence, inflection, and intonation. Same with gait. Posture. Various affectations of the body and face.

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Hormones.

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These are things we absorb from an early age. Did you read my whole post? Fa'afafines are an excellent example of this. They are raised as girls and in turn come off virtually the exact same as females in the affectations I mentioned above. Watch the videos.

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Like with those falafel ladyboys. Parents try to raise their kids that way, no one cares if you are that way, the culture wants to assimilate people who behave that way and so it nudges them from behind and opens the way forward. As far as any aspect of my identity is concerned, I never experienced any influence from others that I didn't have a personal hand in accepting (edit or was innate). They just let me be as I wanted to be. The nudges and path-making was all toward being a pliant and productive member of society. Hence why I say I've never experienced the kind of cultural/societal influence that people decry.

rilla you are describing cultural influence.

Fine, then my culture was a culture of commercialism as I said originally.

My point is not that anyone made a concerted effort to make you talk or act or think a certain way. My point is that you were raised as a boy and so you took cues from people about what being a boy means. This is not a conscious act on anyone's part. If you really think you had that much autonomous control in forming your identity as a child then I really don't know what to tell you, lol. Whether or not your parents were controlling or not is light years from the point I'm making. You don't have a personal hand in accepting what you learned about identity as a child, at age 1, 2, 3, 4, etc., when you are quite literally a sponge and learning everything you know about the world and identities from the people that surround you. No one is trying to do anything to anyone else - it simply happens.

No, not hormones. Just watch the video. They were raised as girls and taking cues on their identities like other little girls do, so they come off that way. At least address this point even if you don't agree with it. Again, watch the video and actually study the things I'm talking about. Do you see how they are hyper feminine in all respects, not like feminine gay boys or drag queens but actual women? Is that not evidence to you that the way you are raised plays a massive role in your expression of your gender identity?

You're not a unique snowflake that's escaped the intricate bonds of social conditioning and societal influence just because you had cool parents lol, sorry but you're just not. It doesn't mean you're a weak soul or that you don't have a strong individual sense of self or any of that (clearly that is not the case, you come off as very self-actualized), of course you do. But there is a lot about yourself you didn't choose. No one intentionally tried to do that to you, and everyone else has gone through it too.

“You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts.”

-Dick Feynman

This dude teaches so many great lessons.

Have you ever met young children? You never noticed the differences between boys and girls the same age where the boys were inside their own heads and the girls were out-going?

Did culture teach those boys to be so deep inside themselves? That was me.

I don't know how to respond to that other than great quote.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Have you ever met young children? You never noticed the differences between boys and girls the same age where the boys were inside their own heads and the girls were out-going?

Did culture teach those boys to be so deep inside themselves? That was me.

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Actually yes, I do believe that society influences the behavior of children in those respects too. A little girl is raised with the understanding that she is a little girl, so she takes cues from other women, how other little girls act, what's expected, etc. She sees, she responds. Parents push their children into acting certain ways that they think they should because of their gender, and children respond by fulfilling those expectations. There are always degrees to which this occurs (people are after all their own personalities with different quirks and such), and of course some parents do this more intentionally than others, but it always happens on some level.

Do I think that hormones and biology also play a role in the way children act? Of course, totally! Again, I am a nature and nurture person. To think it is all one or the other simply makes no sense to me.

And to think it's "all me" is a display of immensely naive arrogance.

That first alfalfagirl is clearly a dude in face and voice.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

That first alfalfagirl is clearly a dude in face and voice.

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Watch the whole thing. Look up some other videos. Actually give it your best shot to get a full understanding of what they're like instead of eagerly trying to prove me wrong. And if you still don't see what I mean about feminine affectations then I literally have nothing else to say to you lol, I can't change your perception. It's clear as day to me.

The very fact alone that there exists a society with a third gender should show you that our construction of gender is not some universal or natural law, but simply that: a construct.

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

A little girl is raised with the understanding that she is a little girl, so she takes cues from other women, how other little girls act, what's expected, etc. She sees, she responds. Parents push their children into acting certain ways that they think they should because of their gender, and children respond by fulfilling those expectations. There are always degrees to which this occurs (people are after all their own personalities with different quirks and such), and of course some parents do this more intentionally than others, but it always happens on some level.

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Yes! This was my point. None of this happened to me, but it does happen to little girls. This is why I said the cultural influence thing never clicked with me.

Now on to why, I'm betting it's because societies have an obvious interest in their women and their behavior while men are regarded as a bit more free to make themselves as a failed man doesn't hurt like a failed woman.

Boys and girls have much different behaviors before they're even born. But it's a social construct!

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Boys and girls have much different behaviors before they're even born. But it's a social construct!

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Like I said, I believe in gendered brains. And never once said it's "all" a social construct. Are you even trying? You can do better than that.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Yes! This was my point. None of this happened to me, but it does happen to little girls. This is why I said the cultural influence thing never clicked with me.

Now on to why, I'm betting it's because societies have an obvious interest in their women and their behavior while men are regarded as a bit more free to make themselves as a failed man doesn't hurt like a failed woman.

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The way you express your gender is shaped by your observations of masculinity, and the way you were raised to understand it. It doesn't mean you're a pod person, it just means you took cues from the men in your life or on TV or wherever.

I agree with your point about the differences between how society treats men and women but that is still not relevant to the point I am making.

Biology is one thing, but our society and its vast weird and intricate web of interpersonal dynamics, be they gendered or race-related or age-related or what fucking ever, everything that's lead up to this point in civilization -- that exists in the outside world. Not in the womb. And it shapes us from day 1.

What observations of masculinity? I can't think of any. I never looked upon a man and thought of him or what he was doing in terms of masculinity, only in terms of what he was doing and if I could do it successfully.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

What observations of masculinity? I can't think of any. I never looked upon a man and thought of him or what he was doing in terms of masculinity, only in terms of what he was doing and if I could do it successfully.

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Again, go back to the Fa'afafine. They were raised as women, and therefore have adopted mannerisms pretty much identical to any actual woman. They're sponging, not actively taking notes and learning. When you are a child your brain is plastic and very mutable and you sponge off of what you see and how you are treated. This has literally nothing to do with what you actively thought when you looked at a man. My goal here is not to make you say "Oh yeah, I remember now!" You're not going to remember. It's not that kind of thing.

Does it count if I tried to pretend to go super-saiyan like Goku?

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

Again, go back to the Fa'afafine. They were raised as women, and therefore have adopted mannerisms pretty much identical to any actual woman. They're sponging, not actively taking notes and learning. When you are a child your brain is plastic and very mutable and you sponge off of what you see and how you are treated. This has literally nothing to do with what you actively thought when you looked at a man. My goal here is not to make you say "Oh yeah, I remember now!" You're not going to remember. It's not that kind of thing.

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Yeah, they were raised. I wasn't. I was left to be.

aub, we already got to the point. The way you were raised wasn't the way I was raised, but you really, really, think it was. The way I acted, behaved, chose, and grew as a boy is unlike how you did as a girl.

Again, nothing to do with how your parents intentionally raised you -- my parents also let me be and gave me a lot of freedom. I'm not harboring any bitterness over my childhood.

Nonetheless, you grew up with the understanding that you were a boy. That was your identity and you learned about your identity through the world. You grew up around other people. You grew up in society. Not a bubble. What's so hard about this concept?

I really don't think you understand what I'm saying and I think it's because of two things: 1) you're stubbornly projecting the point you think I'm making onto me and 2) I'm doing a shit job at communicating. Bad combo.

Also I am not at all convinced your parents raised you in a 100% gender neutral way lol. And if you think they did I think you're lying because pretty much no one does that unless they're uber uber young liberals living in Portland or something.

social influence is not social determinism

spoon id like to see what the researchers found with regards to prenatal behavioral differences between the sexes.

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

Also I am not at all convinced your parents raised you in a 100% gender neutral way lol. And if you think they did I think you're lying because pretty much no one does that unless they're uber uber young liberals living in Portland or something.

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They knew I was a boy. I knew I was a boy. I was raised as a boy. Which is unlike being raised as a girl. I bet if I was raised as a girl, I would have a girl-tendency to want to assimilate and please, I would have a girl-tendency to look at faces and share emotions, and the world around me would want to shape me in its understanding of how girls need to be shaped.

But I was a boy, so I was largely ignored so long as I showed no obvious red flags.

Hence my original point, cultural influence nonsense doesn't click with me because it wasn't my experience. How you can think that it was a huge part of your experience (or the experience of young girls) and invisible to me and still be essentially the same thing is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

Nonetheless, you grew up with the understanding that you were a [XXX]. That was your identity and you learned about your identity through the world. You grew up around other people. You grew up in society. Not a bubble. What's so hard about this concept?

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[XXX] = If girl, then yes. If boy, then no.

rilla you are still describing cultural influence. you say "i knew i was a boy", yeah, you did, and what your culture calls a boy you also knew, and that's a big part of what you "knew you were".

nobody is arguing determinism. im honestly surprised you're not arguing for the role of environments.

I never said that you felt the need to assimilate and please and that that fact is invisible to you. I'm glad that you see girls have a different experience growing up when it comes to gender roles but that's still not relevant to the point I am making.

Again, I am talking about things like: disposition, affectations, mannerisms -- the whole nuanced gamut of gender expression. These are things you sponge off of unconsciously.

You keep talking about being ignored and not being pushed into doing things and this and that, acting as though I'm trying to convince you that you were more controlled by people in your life than you thought. But that's not what I am saying. You still sponge off of masculine influences around you and they in turn inform your expression of your identity, of your understanding of what being a man means even in just physical affectation alone (not like, oh you have to join the sports team, or something like that). And yes of course I'm sure you rejected some and incorporated others more because we're all individual entities, but my point is nonetheless you are constructed by your environment.

You really don't think we are all constructs of our environments?

Let's do a flip example of the fa'afafine. Let's imagine a girl who shows tomboyish behavior from a very early age, so her parents raise her as a boy. She will, I bet you, have the same exact eerie exactitude of male disposition and affectation.

Look, if I was making the point you think I'm making, you'd be right. But I'm not making that point.

And by the way, environmental construct is not at all limited to gender. Our very consciousness and perception is shaped by the technology we use. Hell, the phonetic alphabet way back when marked a major shift in our perceptive faculties.

Environment is ur daddy. Learn to love it.

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

Again, I am talking about things like: disposition, affectations, mannerisms -- the whole nuanced gamut of gender expression. These are things you sponge off of unconsciously.

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They are mine. Plucked from the world or emergent from myself. And some of them can change.

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You still sponge off of masculine influences around you and they in turn inform your expression of your identity, of your understanding of what being a man means even in just physical affectation alone (not like, oh you have to join the sports team, or something like that).

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What if this is not the case?

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Let's do a flip example of the fa'afafine. Let's imagine a girl who shows tomboyish behavior from a very early age, so her parents raise her as a boy. She will, I bet you, have the same exact eerie exactitude of male disposition and affectation.

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So what do you think it means to be raised as a boy?

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

And by the way, environmental construct is not at all limited to gender. Our very consciousness and perception is shaped by the technology we use. Hell, the phonetic alphabet way back when marked a major shift in our perceptive faculties.

Environment is ur daddy. Learn to love it.

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Not everything in the brain is as dynamic as the neocortex.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

rilla you are still describing cultural influence. you say "i knew i was a boy", yeah, you did, and what your culture calls a boy you also knew, and that's a big part of what you "knew you were".

nobody is arguing determinism. im honestly surprised you're not arguing for the role of environments.

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Really, I never thought about it. Gender wasn't a part of my process. Whereas read what aub says about being raised a little girl. It's front and center in their lives or at least more prominent. Being a boy was like being white, it meant nothing.

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

Look, if I was making the point you think I'm making, you'd be right. But I'm not making that point.

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Epic quote deserves respect.*

:thumbsup:


*I'm taking it as its own context, and not in the context of the present conversation and its active participants.

And again, I'm not arguing for anything. I'm building on my original point. Whatever I hear when people talk about culture and societies influence, it doesn't click with me. Painfully obvious for a lot of women, never noticed it personally.

It's easy to not notice something when you are the beneficiary.

I dated a "beautiful" woman once. I mean... turn heads beautiful. I'd get compliments from random men we walk past on the sidewalk. She got treated differently. She got better service. Her perception of the world was a different thing than mine.

It's everywhere. People are treated a certain way because we as people are complicated and busy. We want a comfortable and streamlined interaction with people so we assume certain things about them based on nothing at all. Gender, clothes, beard, glasses, tone of voice... abstract nothings... and we just roll with it.

We all get treated a certain way by "the public at large" and that's based on all of our collective experiences of what works and whatever our current mood dictates.

It's certainly true that ugly people get worse service and pretty people get better service. How you are perceived as pretty or ugly is beyond me.

https://wilhelminaupton.files.wordpr..._250.gif?w=490

Or maybe I need to watch less 30 rock.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Really, I never thought about it. Gender wasn't a part of my process. Whereas read what aub says about being raised a little girl. It's front and center in their lives or at least more prominent. Being a boy was like being white, it meant nothing.

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even a lack of a perception about something is an influence. lots of people have similar experiences to you. lots of people have similar experiences to aubrey. the environment is always relevant, even when it appears non-influencing. it's just not deterministic.

the answer to the nature vs nurture debate is "both".

Fuck I just made a whole post and my piece of shit faulty internet ate it. Cannot retype the whole thing.

Anyway, Rilla.. I don't know how else to express to you that this has nothing to do with me being a girl. This goes way deeper than that, beyond sexism in our society. I'm not just speaking out of some damaging experience that I can't understand anything outside of. I never even said anything about feeling like I was forced to act a certain way because I was a girl. You projected that on to me. Do you think that I actually -feel- the effects of this myself? I don't. This is something I understand intellectually, not experientially. I don't remember any of this any more than you do.

I'm not trying to dismantle your sense of self. I also am a similarly arrogant shit and have been from day 1, thinking I was super perceptive and smart and awesome and totally owned myself.

Look at transexuals that transitioned later in life, that only started expressing themselves as a different sex later in life. An older MtF has a hard time making this shift because they were brought up male and experienced life as a male. Even if they truly believe through and through they are women inside, they still were conditioned as men. When you look at them, you can see the masculine affectations, even as they try to act more female. It's really hard to just make that sudden change when you're older after a lifetime of experiencing the world as a different gender.

eta: I'm sure some post-structuralists would have you believe that your entire sense of self, through and through, is a construct. I don't buy that.

On them trannys, they blended in to the group they thought everyone would lump them into. I was just in the group everyone thought I was in. From my perch, I had no friction with society, while they do. They have to blend, I just had to be. And society didn't have a lick to say about how I was gonna be. Because we agreed.

You couldn't dismantle my sense of self if you tried.

Your hubris is really impressive. It's also stunting you intellectually (at least, it is in this case). Question everything, even your sense of self.

I'm going to go hit my bubbler now and move on from this conversation. But it was fun. An infuriating pleasure, as usual<3

I can't roll my eyes hard enough. You clearly don't know me well enough.

I'm commenting on what I know well enough to comment on and nothing more. Wouldn't dream of judging any aspect of you that I didn't experience directly.

You ever see that study that had little girls preferring faces over mechanical toys and boys vice versa?

edit at like a few weeks old

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

You ever see that study that had little girls preferring faces over mechanical toys and boys vice versa?

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we went over this a while back. it's interesting, but it doesn't tell us much. it is within the realm of possibility that some small environmental effects are more powerful than the innate effects. it's also possible you're super right and men are naturally better than women at some brain things and a wealth of environmental effects won't change that. but we dont know and the study you mention isn't going to tell us.

No, but I'd like to see.

Alright, then the one where the young boy monkeys took to trucks while the young girl monkeys took to dolls, then?

it's also possible the effect disappears one year down the road. or ten years down the road. or it's possible that when girls hit puberty, they have a bigger spike in mechanical appreciation than the spike boys may get. lots of possibilities.

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Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

No, but I'd like to see.

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It's somewhere buried in this thread. I'll find it. But in the mean time, I walk from there to the idea that girls are probably more vulnerable to cultural influence than boys. Hence why you know it happens and know it happens to me, while I contend it doesn't happen to me at nearly the same degree as you would like to believe.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Alright, then the one where the young boy monkeys took to trucks while the young girl monkeys took to dolls, then?

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same.

mmm should jump in here, as he has been correct on everything he's said about how science works so far. it's basic science that you can't extrapolate that far at all with these sorts of studies. we're just seeing a correlation, but we're not knowing what causes the correlation or what would cause the correlation to disappear or for a different correlation to appear.

i dont think girls are more susceptible to culture than guys are. i cant name a way my mind is not influenced by my culture.