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The only reason we know rascal is not protected n2 is because we expect luco to draw the save after his claim. If rascal dies in the night and flips seer, luco is certainly going to be in the "must die" pool and our chances are zero. Once luco claimed, we were all in. Had he not claimed, well rilla still prob doesn't cover rascal but he might. An unclaimed luco with a dead seer would have given us a little bit of hope. But still not much, and that would be boring.
This was much more fun.
I was in a no-reveal game (no roles/affiliation given after deaths) that had a parity seer. That is, on night 0 the seer submits a name. It gets no result. The next night, the seer submits a second name, and it gets "same affiliation" (as the previous night) or "Different."
I was a wolf and my wolfbros were horrendous, I did find the seer on N1 though and we had another wolf fake claim seer with a wolf peek on a villager. I really debated nomming the wolf there to try to get that villager killed, but didn't. Would have been great just for the lols.
Luco, that fake claim though. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.
Anyway I'd like to thank dhubs for the game. Yes it was town sided, but that's ok, and balancing games is no easy task. You can see why it was town sided, so you can make logical adjustments in future games.
Options for improving this format...
1. give the wolves powers to counter the town. A roleblocker is the first thing that comes to mind, but there's also godfather (seer immune wolf), or a strongman kill (a use once night kill that angel can't stop), amongst others. The godfather one is generally disliked and I understand why, because it's kind of dishonest. But the roleblocker is a solid option and gives the wolves strategic options for dealing with a power heavy town.
2. limit the seer and/or vig to odd or even nights.
3. have no vig at all (one less special to confirm).
4. a bulletproof wolf (must be lynched).
5. A couple more vanilla townies.
Still, I really do think if a game is unbalanced, it's better to be town heavy. I'd rather have a tough wolf win than an easy wolf win because ego. As a villager, well the easier the better because I'm lazy!
Congratulations to the Village. Winner of the May 2015 Werewolf Match.
Thanks boog, that means a lot actuallyQuote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I've already said it in the den, but thanks again for modding dhuber. Great job
:thumbsup:
Another option is to have a gunsmith instead of a seer, which flags up the vig as guilty as well as the wolves. That makes life a little more awkward for the town when it comes to claiming.
I do think that the format is a bit unbalanced but there will be plenty of iterations of this format where the wolves win. Wolves ran into sick bad variance here. Killing Rilla N1 over Gabe was a great move, if Rilla is the seer and not angel they probably win this -- Rilla played GREAT and would have been a huge loss.
on POG, angel is a role that is rarely if ever used in vanillas or vanilla+ games, they are standard in larger mishmashes though (for both sides). A vanilla 13er features 3 wolves and 1 seer and usually no other specials, and this is considered a tough game for the village to win. (Wolf win% is probably around 55%). Giving the wolves a PR would probably balance it or leave out the angel.
Yeah I think if I were dhubs looking to repeat this format, a wolf roleblocker would be sufficient, and I think that balance will be within acceptable parameters even if you add another two or three vanilla townies, allowing flexibility in game size.
and on paper I do think that a wolf team of Ong-Wuf-Luco looks pretty damn good.
The village played exceptionally well though, especially in clearing themselves and each other.
I was away for the weekend degenning in AC or I would have really been troubled because I couldn't figure out a wolf team without Wuf/Ong that made sense because I thought there was at most 1 wolf in Rong/Boog/Luco. I kept wanting to call Boog a villager and kept coming back to him as a wolf suspect because I was never lynching Gabe/Rilla/Rascal.
I think without the numbers to lock it our gambit could have paid off, but at the same time we would never have even considered something that nutty if things weren't so hard against us, so chicken and egg there.
And I don't think imbalance takes away one iota of village credit here, you guys brought your A game and thoroughly deserved this one.
I agree, the wolves still win this format a decent amount of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by baudib
Yeah this 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luco
Also there's only one wolf that really brought his village game to the game thread, and that was luco. Me and wuf were awful in terms of our game play.
I'm just glad we made a game to remember out of it in the end.
I'm modding the next one!
Thanks for the kind feedback and especially to the Wolves for remaining true to their roles even in the face of impossible odds due to the reveal. I'm looking forward to playing in the next match.
Nice game everyone.
Possibly needs a few tweaks to balance the format but overall very fun to play.
I had a hearty laugh when Ong outed as Gator. Comedic genius, that Ong.
This isn't the first time ong has been an outed wolf waiting to die is it?
No it's a familiar feeling for me, trolling as an outed wolf.
What a game! Dat village!
Dat wolf gambit in pseudo-confirming Luco as V!
Baud and rilla as basically conf. V on D1 was super strong for the village. Those 2 were epic at clearing themselves early and congealing a team.
***
Thanks to everyone involved!
thanks for modding dhuber. i love werewolf.
i think im going to enjoy rereading this game since we crushed so hard. we were massive favorites ever since like the 15th post in the thread. the game was over at a point where we hadnt even killed a wolf yet
triple fake claim...nice try wolves.
luco in den "I'm also taking solace in the fact that even the real seer thought I was villager faking not wolf faking"
that is a pretty unique thing. dont think we've seen a fake claim ever be so widely believed in such a way. rong's response to it ("did dhuber send wrong PM???" lol) was VERY good and villagery which tipped me off
Rongs reaction was great, try to imagine it from my seat. You were very quick off the mark gabe. Also,
I posted this before reading my role pm, my read on you and Rilla wasn't fakeQuote:
Originally Posted by Luco
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfDenWugy
I remember feeling that way about you, not too long ago at all.
:D
:h:
This game frustrated me a lot. I was more into this game than any I've played in a long time, but life and alcohol pulled me away and trying to catch up e days of posts is such am effort.
Looking forward to rilla being a wolf. I wanna see if he's figured out to fake himself yet.
Game is largely won on D1 and the weird thing is the village had an objectively awful day...lynching JKDS and vigging BID and forcing Hoopy to claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
not badQuote:
Originally Posted by baudib
game was like http://www.hasbro.com/common/product...7B1C6BBA4E.jpg
In retrospect, your posts are amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rong
I had great fun guys, and we did put forward a total village game this time. Way to be, lads.
Angel peek definitely helped though.
this was kind of a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by baudib
Bwaaaahahahahaha!Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfDenWugy
Many laughs in the wolf den, but that one stood out.
It was amazing. Many thanks to all.Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfDenWugy
I was fighting the urge to randomly post "dat village" into the thread. Obv., I would never do that, but dayum.
rilla/baudib/gabe OP.
I really want to read the whole den thread at some point.
Ong did not post well but he is the creative genius behind any wolf team he's on and Wuf did a great job at specials hunting.
I think the next game we play should be a true vanilla with just a seer or we really try hard to get 17 people and have more roles and stuff (for wolves too).
Thanks for modding Dhubs.
Congrats to the village, you guys were solidly in your v-ranges, and I think this is the toughest village to play against in a long time.
Nice try Luco. It was never meant to be. You're killer at looking village when not. That makes total sense, though, given that in the anon game you identified everybody's real handle.
I'll forever love Mademoiselle WrongBonga for coming up with that batshit awesome plan. All I wanted for Christmas was the wolfnomblock, but ain't nobody surprised Gabe figured it out lickety-split.
Here's the rundown of my play:
Play standard vilwuf d1, which means kill the player making the most logical inconsistencies or doing the least. Gabe was the former until he explained and I realized I misunderstood him. BID became the latter. I didn't want to stay on BID because I knew that vilwuf would have pounced on Ong, but doing so would have probably gotten him killed, so I just avoided him. I felt my avoidance of Ong was easily the biggest tell, but I sorta had no choice. He was admittedly playing his C game, and we weren't going to kill him, so that was that.
I tried really hard to come up with a case on somebody else, but I just couldn't. I think this is the main way the village played well. Nobody was on their w-game. Your personal postings were fantastic.
I wanted to get on the right side of the d1 lynch, partly because I felt doing so would make it more likely that player would be lynched since the narrative controllers were not happy with me. Overnight, the plan was to "wake up" like I often do on d2 and blast the players on JKDS wagon. Lots of villagers would claim that was a bad lynch retrospectively, and the wolves had avoided it like the plague. I think if the n1 nom goes our way, somebody who lynched JKDS dies d2. Then we would have been in a winnable position.
But then the Rilla block and reveal came, and what was once the goal to kill the seer by the beginning of d3 became inevitable doom. Our only hope to win was if the seer was picking peeks that were dying. Very unlikely. So we knew it was game over, and we just wanted to make something cool of it. My play fell off a cliff. That was partly the goal, but also I really do suck at fakeouting since I would almost never realout. We were trying to come up with the best plan to go out spectacularly, and for a while didn't know if that involved me living or dying.
I've realized that the reason I seem to play different as a wolf is because I am an undisciplined villager. As everybody can recall, I always say I'm going to be more disciplined each time, but end up being far less so than I'd hoped. But being a wolf makes it so much easier. I think my wolf game reflects the way I think my village game should be. I reread the posts in this game way more than I do as a villager. Granted, neither of those styles is remotely fun, so I'm sure I'll be wanting to do something different.
Baud did a good job of upsetting me. I don't think his tactics are bad, but I don't think they're the only good tactics. Maybe the more people post the better he plays, but beyond a certain point the more people post the worse I play.
FWIW, I'm not going to do that. JKDS won't either. Gabe only did it once: this game. Rong does the opposite, where he gets himself lockvil cleared as a wolf.Quote:
Originally Posted by baudib
Maybe if I chose a style where I don't intend on focusing attention on figuring the players out will I do that. I used to do it, and back then the rationale was twofold: (1) gets yourself cleared and (2) gets wolves to trip up. I'm just not sure how much I believe either of those anymore. We've had wolves exploit #1 before and I think #2 gives diminishing returns.
I think this was the crux behind how we butt heads this game. It's not like it matters, I just wanted to clarify in case clarity is useful, and I would have felt the same if I wasn't a wolf. At least I think so.
I don't remember either of these, I was skimming a bunch in the middle when those two country hens really started cluckingQuote:
Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
You gonna play the next one mojo?
Good to see you getting more involved again for sureQuote:
Originally Posted by rong
Country hens who needed to figure out what we were going to do. I was confused on the full plan almost all of d2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luco
good post, i like some points you made in here. the discplined/controlled style is effective as a villager and easy to balance as a wolf. the loose/aggressive village style is hard to play as a wolf foshoQuote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
but a controlled style will get you lynched as a villager more. an aggro style can lead to doing more things that clear youQuote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Whatever I say, I say with love.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
It was a beautiful disaster
i defended ong because i believed his reasoning for why he said "wuf crumbed angel." turns out it was probably a legit excuse, but doesnt mean he couldnt be a wolf. bad read. i think all the day 1 jkds wagon and postcount system worked fine and helped organize and clear the village.
are there any fun versions that are wolf heavy and the village gets more power? or do we need to think of one?
This is my problem. It's really tough to fake my villager game consitently for days maybe weeks. It's really draining because I'm such a high volume player. I was a very obvious wolf this game, and so was I the last time I was wolf. I'm gonna have to make some changes because I don't like to let my buddies down really. Plus I don't like people thinking I'm an average wolf. I have an ego. So yeah my next villager game (hopefully the very next game) will be lower profile, lower volume, but ideally not lacking in quality. That's the plan, anyway. I'll probably bink wolf though because random.org seems to like me.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Also, cheers wuf, but I'm also convinced you can come up with this plan if given a little more time. It's not creative genius, it's just the willingness to take risks in order to increase the fun factor. You have that, and you have creativity. I just beat you to it really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Good villagers make shit wolves and vice the versa with a twist. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
The problem with this strategy is that most player's post count isnt related to role, and that the veto's guaranteed a villager is lynched. There is no doubt that inactive players hurt the village though, and getting rid of them as soon as possible...even if they are all villagers, is helpful. The issue with that though, is that so many of us are inactive that there isnt enough time to lynch them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
That said, when the game is unbalanced, lynching 'randomly' will usually net a win for whoever the game favors. Lynching inactives is essentially doing that.
Idk of wolf heavy games really. Spectacularrrrrs are fun, but they arent exactly balanced. One thing that could happen is increasing the wolf count but taking away their kill. That lengthens the amount of time the village has to find the wolves...but it doesnt let the wolves kill pesky villagers so meh.
The wuf angel thing was pure spazz. I figured it would stop his wagon taking off while looking like I was rolefishing him, but I should've talked it through with luco and wuf first, and they'd have told me it was a stupid idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Thanks for modding dhuber.
Thanks to the wolves for making this fun. I loved reading the den and really liked your attitude about this game.
:thumbsup:
Cheers, I mean obviously I wasn't happy that rilla got cleared, but luco said it best really... you play the cards you're dealt. I felt demotivated for a short while, but I was also playing badly and that was a significant factor in my mood.
Wuf, toning down your villager game to make yourself a better wolf is inherently stupid and massively -EV for you in both roles.
it just means you'll be policy lynched a lot. Just learn to post better as a wolf.
It's toning down my village game to make my village game better, not to make just my wolf game better. Additionally, I think good wolf play is the same as good village play.Quote:
Originally Posted by baudib
It was in the game before this that I realized that I evaluate players better when I stop saying everything I think and instead spend more time rereading posts. When doing that, analyzing intentions and behaviors is easier. When posting a lot, I get into ruts full of way too many assumptions.
I think I got over the rilla clear in under a minute, and I wasn't even that mad to start with.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
I think it's just way better to flow naturally. I mean obviously this will lead directly to contradictions that people will sometimes call you out for, but if you let everyone see what you're thinking they'll get it and you get mislynched less. This is the advice I got from the GOAT turbo player in the world and it works for me (I haven't been mislynched in a long time)Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
TBH I was happy. It was a relief to know it was over. Shit was not going to be easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luco
Plus I adore bitching about imba. That just made the imba more obvious.
I think this strategy is incredible if you're good at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by baudib
Looking forward to bed. Having to turn your head towards the villager perspective just to post can be taxing.
wolfing is physically taxing
This has to be the craziest plan I've ever seen, and I had the entire dead chat rolling when I asked the mod in that no-reveal game if I were allowed to nom a fellow wolf.
in that game there was no chance of misinterpretation because the village would just assume it was really the real seer.
Like I said, I was semi-bluffing.Quote:
baud's absolute confidence that im not the seer is strange. i mean, he does believe things he doesn't actually know quite vociferously as a villager, but this could be a tell that he's the seer. or it could be him pretending to be the seer
Ong was really good at figuring out I wasn't the seer. I think there is a decent % of time I get nommed on N2 (like in those universes where the wolves don't go for broke with a batshit crazy triple fake claim).
sick game.
I can't imagine sitting out 2 in a row.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luco
Besides, I gotta prove that I didn't get my 100% wolf victory rating by fluke! Also, I still have to prove myself a capable villager by living to the final decision and not suiciding!
MMM there were a couple moments where the thread was quiet and I really wished you were in the game to give us chartz and shit.
I think wolves would have had a really good chance if there had been a double up on seer peeks with specials, like if rascal had peeked Hoopy N1 instead of Boog.
Luco being a wolf with the fake claim + obliterating Ong and Wuf was kinda mind-bending.
Bink binkQuote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
too bad I was too occupied with moving again (4th time in 18 months) ...
busy until mid june and would love to play again then.
thanks dhub!
Wow sick baudibQuote:
Originally Posted by gabe
BiD I actually took your Luco read into account several times (I don't think I mentioned it in the thread, but I was toying with the idea of wagoning Luco several times).
http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/o...1241-6461..pngQuote:
Originally Posted by baudib
Rilla, you had SO many amazing posts this game but this one really startled me
Since you were the wolf target n1 and probably thought you were likely to die N2, did you just go all-in trying to rep seer with this or did you really just know Gabe and I were 100% villagers?Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
This is good advice, thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by baudib
I am also moving house over the next couple of months, so it's a good time to mod rather than play I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
I'll open a signup thread in a couple of weeks
LOL. I really thought you were a vanillager providing seer cover since Wuf and Ong's claims were so bad. I didn't even think about you not being vanillager until I realized Hoopy was clear, which put you in the POE. But last in the POE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luco
Well played. It would have been interesting to play it out if it wouldn't have been a locked game.
You can join me in the low profile wolfy villager section. I'm probably the biggest werewolf nit ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Hoopy is a national treasure
I really only made the post because I was super-cleared villager, but I've had a pretty good track record calling out my firm villager reads as hundo villas. I don't think I've ever been wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by baudib
sorry nits arent allowed to convert other players into nits. stop it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoopy
funny reading the den. like 20% into it you guys realize you cant win. 80% of the posts in there came after this point.
for real i think we should try to save as many villagers possible in the end game even when we're a lock to win on the original condition. its more real life to try and save people. and its fun surviving
You usually live as a villager?
not really but i like to pretend we are in a real village somewhere. maybe a quaint town in the mountains or the country side. if we were really hunting werewolves we wouldnt be cool with blasting 4 people to guarantee the last wolf kill. instead we would try to suss out the bad guy and save our village compadres. this is our town dammit
I'd be cool with it. Lookin at you Jkids and rong.
I'd like to think I would still be hiding in my home day1, waiting for all this ww nonsense to blow over. Then on day2, when there is now a sufficient amount of evidence to be concerned, I would put my career aside to help out.
I mean, who would believe in werewolves after just one dead body? Besides, that's what cops (seers) and doctors (angels) are for, right?
Werewolf 265: It's Real Life!
Instructor: Professor Gabe.
yeah I thought there was more role-playing in WW when I first played live at (known professional baller who had a hugicle WSOP score)'s house last summer. I started by telling a story that I was a simple farmer trying to help the village and all.
anyway, Gabe you should come to a game this year, I'll be in Vegas at end of the month.
who is it? PM me if you want..
Pseudo-name drop is
[ ] classy
[x] OMG tell me now, tell me now, tell me now*.
*You pretentious, name-dropping show off**.
**Of whom I am jealous.
Jesse Sylvia. i mean, it's not like it's phil ivey
Awwww snap!
You heard that, Jesse? baudib says you ain't all that.
http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads...hh-monkies.jpg
Jesse?
Jesse? Where's your hand?
btw, link to dead thread?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
There you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by baudib
There's approximately 0% chance I would have ever suggested there was a godfather in this game, btw.
It would be extreme mod AIDS to have that role in a FTR game, especially one of this size, and for it to be a secret. I just don't see Dhuber as the type to do something like that.
I figure godfather is easier to believe than wolves nomming their own. I mean at MS it's not like the mods tell people the role exists in a game, it's just assumed there's a small chance of it happening. It's not mod AIDS imo because once it becomes clear something is amiss, then it's considered. It doesn't guarantee a win for the wolves, even if the wolf is peeked. It just means the seer can't fuck the wolves entirely. I like the gf role as a means of seer balance but for some reason it's not too popular here. I guess you people like locking the game and going into autopilot. I prefer to have a final day where both tems are in with a chance.
a game this size with an unknown godfather is a potentially game-breaking role
the only games i've seen with godfathers were a vanilla+ with 18 players and a neutral and it was known there was a godfather, and mashes with 40+ players where there are no known roles.
clear your inbox rong!
Done.
I think i need another break from WW. Just finished another huge mash where I was a villager, we won, I lived to the end AGAIN but I was really awful.
I just need to be a villager. I just had an awesome game on mafiascum where I dropped a fake seer guilty on scum.
I was just randomly thinking about this game for no reason and it occurred to me that Rascal's play as seer is basically flawless. Better than that. For him not to freak out amidst 2 seer claims by wolves is just amazing.
Also peeking Boog was stellar, really an elite peek and he managed to protect him without becoming too seery and never becoming a wagon himself by being a clear villager while not threatening the wolves.
Courtiebee was a flawless seer, she totally dodged our radar while she looked up two wolves. rascal looked at villagers and was found by n2. His play is definitely solid, but with all due respect it's not goatseer territory.
I didn't say he was goatseer, I just said he basically played it perfectly. It takes balls of steel to not out with 2 fake claims out there.
Also, it's not really his fault the rest of the village basically outed themselves as non-seer (lol vanilla claims)
Yeah fair enough that he got found basically because everyone else did their best to make it obvious they weren't seer.
It's just hard for me to get excited about someone's seer performance after the courtie show.