Whats your move?

#Game No : 1771241022
***** Hand History for Game 1771241022 *****
NL Hold'em $5 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:10591944 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Monday, March 21, 19:23:53 EDT 2005
Table Table 35267 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 8: Apollo8811 ( $775 )
Seat 6: azleholdem ( $1750 )
Seat 9: MartyMoker ( $1580 )
Seat 1: Dave_34 ( $850 )
Seat 7: littlejerry7 ( $770 )
Seat 2: herberg ( $1560 )
Seat 10: sammyace777 ( $550 )
Seat 3: lazynydayz ( $165 )
Trny:10591944 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MartyMoker [ As Kd ]
sammyace777 folds.
Dave_34 calls [30].
herberg calls [30].
lazynydayz folds.
azleholdem folds.
littlejerry7 folds.
Apollo8811 folds.
MartyMoker raises [69].
Dave_34 folds.
herberg calls [69].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, Kh, Jd ]
MartyMoker bets [100].
herberg calls [100].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
MartyMoker bets [400].
herberg calls [400].
** Dealing River ** [ 5h ]
??


I'll show you what I did later, and the outcome. My main concern was that I didnt raise enough preflop and he might have caught something better. Or maybe a set of something. When he called the turn I thought he might have picked up a flush draw. (I have a bad tendency to put people on flush draws)

At those stakes, at that point. I'd bet another 300 and be willing to go AI.

-'rilla

I think that you would still have the best hand and its not a bad idea to put the chips into the middle.

Preflop, betting 3xBB or more wouldnt be a bad idea. Also, I read somehwere that its also a good idea to account for limpers when raising. IE. If hte blinds were 15/30, and there were 2 limpers you would want to reraise to 120-150 instead of just 90

You would think that preflop if he had, AA, or KK he would have reraised. A JJ you might be afraid of becuase that might not be a reraising hand, he could limp and call wiht a JJ.

After the flop, I think your in good shape, although I dont think betting the pot or a bit higher would be a bad idea.

Results:

** Dealing River ** [ 5h ]
MartyMoker is all-In [981]
herberg is all-In [961]
MartyMoker shows [ As, Kd ] two pairs, aces and kings.
herberg shows [ Td, Qd ] a straight, ten to ace.
MartyMoker wins 20 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and kings.
herberg wins 3165 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
Game #1771247191 starts

ouch flopped a straight with a one gapper, cant expect that to happen often enough for you to actaully be afraid of it on a daily basis..

I guess the best way to prevent that is to bet it before the flop high enough that hands like that wont call. Although sometimes people chase anyways.

With the way the hand was played, there's no way anyone would / should fold the AK at the river, or be scared to go all in (its more about wanting to be called at this spot, and the only reason I wouldn't shove would be fear of not getting called). Unavoidable loss.

Note: A 3xBB preflop bet (while recommended, especially with such small blinds when you should be betting a bit more preflop) would not have folded the QTs out, and I doubt even a 4xBB bet would've. They had an implied odds hand that should want a big hand to go against and they ended up getting their implied odds majorly with this hand.

That's a big turn smooth call... you gotta think he has a hand. The tough part is that your PFR was so small, you can't really limit his holdings.

I still think I am ahead at this point, but I also want to avoid committing all my chips. I just get paranoid with two smooth calls like that. This is when it sucks to be out of position. You can't really check the river, or min-bet it, because you'd hate to get bluff raised.

Ideally, I think you want to bet enough to:
1) Get a pair/lower 2-pair to call
2) Discourage a bluff raise
3) If you get reraised all in, lay it down with enough chips to survive.

I think youi bet 400 again on the river. With the nuts, presumably he raises you all-in.... now would I lay down top 2? In a $5 SNG????

What I don't like about the river all-in to open is that about the only hands he is going to call you with that you still win are like AJ/KJ... maybe A3 or something.

I woulda been betting 300-400 on the river but I dont know if I would call an all in. It would be a tough choice though because you would be so pot commited, I would think he is holding an Ace,perhaps A-J because he limped from early position. He might also have called with top pair and a gut shot, A-Q or A-10, there so many hands you can put him on since the preflp raise was so small.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

I woulda been betting 300-400 on the river but I dont know if I would call an all in.

---

Huge pot, you're left with an abreviated stack if you fold, you've got a great hand, stakes are low.

-'rilla

Since it's still pretty early in the SnG, I would take an unusual line.

You're in the BB. Which means you'll be severely out of position for the rest of the hand. Don't raise preflop, with the intention of checking top pair or two pair all the way to the river. Instead of risking your whole stack, early in the tournament, the most you could lose with this line is your big blind, which is tiny at this point.

If that level of Passivity is too much for you you can check-raise at some point, but you'll still not have information on the other players hand.

Moreso in tournaments than ring games, POSITION is more important than the cards you hold in your hand. Don't be blinded by the fact that you have AK. AK+bad position=marginal hand early in a SnG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iconoclastic

Since it's still pretty early in the SnG, I would take an unusual line.

You're in the BB. Which means you'll be severely out of position for the rest of the hand. Don't raise preflop, with the intention of checking top pair or two pair all the way to the river. Instead of risking your whole stack, early in the tournament, the most you could lose with this line is your big blind, which is tiny at this point.

If that level of Passivity is too much for you you can check-raise at some point, but you'll still not have information on the other players hand.

Moreso in tournaments than ring games, POSITION is more important than the cards you hold in your hand. Don't be blinded by the fact that you have AK. AK+bad position=marginal hand early in a SnG.

---

Oh my god, are you serious, dude? It seems like you must be being completely blinded by seeing what they had, and can't actually believe that because you're out of position you shouldn't bet top two pair. That's just begging to be sucked out by some silly gutshot, let alone doing nothing to do what your main goal is in a poker tournament, which is to pick up chips, making the most you can off of your big hands. Super passive play doesn't win tournaments.

And top two pair isn't some flimsy hand like TPTK or bottom two pair. On the flop, turn, and river, the only hands that beat you are sets and QT. To just seemingly assume that one of these few hands is likely out there seems very strange. I mean hell, its a heads up hand even, after they've limped in preflop and just called post flop!!! Its debatable that the only single hand that you have to worry about, considering the preflop and flop action, is QT. One hand! If he shouldn't be betting here, its basically saying that you shouldn't bet in poker out of position without the nuts.

Its just one of those hands you can't get away from. If the other player was listed as having AJ or any other weaker hand I doubt anyone would critisize any play on any postflop street here.

THe question isn't to worry about whether you are beat here, You should be trying to get as many chips in the center as possible after that flop. It is scary to be smooth called on the turn, but you aren't going to fold top 2 pair, so just try to get as many of your opponent's chips in as possible. I think there are very few times you are beat here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by michael1123

That's just begging to be sucked out by some silly gutshot, let alone doing nothing to do what your main goal is in a poker tournament, which is to pick up chips, making the most you can off of your big hands. Super passive play doesn't win tournaments.

If he shouldn't be betting here, its basically saying that you shouldn't bet in poker out of position without the nuts.

Its just one of those hands you can't get away from. If the other player was listed as having AJ or any other weaker hand I doubt anyone would critisize any play on any postflop street here.

---

Of course super passive play doesn't win tournaments, dude. Neither does getting yourself into a marginal situation EARLY in a tournament. The best you can do now is double up with 7 players still left, while the worst you can do is get eliminated. You might be underestimating the importance of position here. IMHO, it's MORE IMPORTANT than the cards you hold in this situation.

Again, it's the earliness of the SnG that makes passivity a good idea. It's not a MTT where you gotta double up many times to make it. It's early in a SnG for crying out loud.

Let's say Hero checks preflop and the flop. Villain bets the pot. My advise is to Fold. You can choose to play your hand strong and might even double up, but the advantage you gain by doing that still does not make up for the elimination from the tourney. Yes, to survive early on I would play nothing less than the mortal nuts.

In the middle stages of a tournament, Aggressive strong play is good. Early on, where there's very little to gain, even by doubling up, and everything to lose, Tight is Right.

Oh BTW, if I somehow found myself in the original conundrum I'd bet about a third of the pot to induce a Call and call a Push. I do think that once you've committed so many chips to the pot it would be too Weak to fold in fear of a set or straight.

The fact of the matter is, man, that position is mostly important for playing marginal hands, or getting the max value out of your monsters (to aid in check raising and seeing how much they like their hand). This, considering that its EXTREMELY unlikely that he has a set on this high flop, since he didn't raise preflop, is an absolute monster, not some marginal hand.
If you had AT on this flop, then I'd see where you're coming from. Top pair and a gutshot is a decent hand, but certainly not one you're looking to get all your chips in with. Top two pair is completely different, and is pretty damn close to the strength of bottom set. Would you be saying he must check down if he had JJ here, and can't bet until the board pairs, without knowing the opponents hand?

And yes, position is more important than playing a marginally better hand. But considering the possible hands they have, you basically have the 2nd nuts. Its similar to flopping a king high flush, and then saying that you can't bet it because you're out of position and they may have an A high flush, without him showing ANY strength yet, because you're not even betting the damn flop! Are you saying you'd rather have bottom pair in position than top two pair out of it?

Then as to the its to early to play a big pot argument (even with a hand that beats every hand he can have except for one), I think its total rubbish. Its obviously to early to shove in preflop with TT or JJ or something, but to act like doubling up wouldn't mean much is silly. If I double up early in a tournament, by chances of making the money skyrocket, and I'd probably put them at around 90% at this point. Its certainly not useless.

The reason I think you absolutely need to bet the flop and turn is that while AK is a monster here, and is almost certain to be the best hand at the flop, its still vulnerable, as if a Q, J, or T hits on the turn or river, you could easily be beat. With safe turns and rivers, its silly to not be willing to go all in, as I'd easily be willing to go all in on the flop.

Finally, this isn't even relevent compared to how you'd suggest playing it as you'd never get any real information that way until the river, but as for the talk of the call on the turn being scary, you have to remember that this is a $5 tourney. The dude could have A2, let alone the numerous amount of hands that most players would like to at least take down to the river, which would include: AJ, KJ, AQ, AT, KQ, KT, QJ, and JT, most of which having around 6 outs against your hand. If he raised at any point, then there'd be a question of what would he raise with, but with just a call on the flop and turn, there's no reason at all to assume that you're beat, even in a big buyin tourney, but especially in a $5 one where its possible that these guys are completely new to the game and really have no idea what they're doing.

I'll assume your lack of response means that you've learned the errors of your ways now. :twisted:

But seriously, does anyone else disagree with me here?

Iconoclastic, tight is right != not betting what is very likely the best hand on the very small chance that you might be beat.