How much of your buy-in are you willing to pay to see OESFD?

So I'm in in the SB with Q10o and end up calling a min raise. Flop comes 9JQ, all diamonds and my 10 is the diamond. I lead out with a small, 2x BB bet and a guy behind me raises it to 6x the BB so after a few seconds I call. Turn comes a 10, I check, he checks, river comes another Q. I check thinking he likes his hand since he raised me on the flop, he checks and it turns out that he flopped the 9-K straight(wasn't the K of diamond) and my lucky ass outdrew him to the full house.

Despite having the OESFD and a ton of outs, I'm not sure I would have been able to convince myself to call an all in had he pushed on the flop or turn(even if I had just caught the flush) since it was only my 3rd hand at the table and I didn't have a good feel for my opponent's playing/betting style yet.

So what's the biggest bet you'd called with the above hand?

I asked that question a little while ago, and nobody answered me... but with an OESFD, assuming no (or very little) of your outs were taken, I'd risk it all if i had to here, simply because you WILL catch something over half the time (i believe its ~60%)... therefore its a +EV play, right?

Thats my thinking... as long as you dont lose $100 on an all in, then win $20 on an all in :P

-Chris

I would certaintly not call an all in on the flop or turn!
I'd play it cautiously on the flop and turn as you did. When you hit the full house I think its better to overbet the pot instead of checking. Who knows, he might be just baiting you into betting on the river with the check on the turn holding a flush. Here an overbet would have likely folded him, but generally speaking thats what I would do in a hand like this.

Me? If the bets are big enough on the flop, hell, I WILL PUSH ALL IN rather than wait for someone else to put me all in.

You're getting more than 50% to win the hand. Moreover, if someone calls, less than 50% of the pot will be your money (the blinds and anybody who called to see the flop's money). Therefore, EVERY TIME YOU PUSH ALL IN, you are getting a positive expected value.

Of course, I was thinking more in situations such as

I have KhQh
Flop comes 10h Jh 3s

or I have 8c 9c
and the flop comes 10h Jc 5c

types of things. Not big obvious superdrawing boards such as that mentioned in the original post, but that's just me.

If there are people looking to "protect" two pair, overpair, or hell, even top pair when I have an OESFD...and the bets get to be at least 2-3x the initial pot, I'm going all in.

Hell, they might even fold and then I've got all that money without even having to draw. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ensign_lee

Me? If the bets are big enough on the flop, hell, I WILL PUSH ALL IN rather than wait for someone else to put me all in.

You're getting more than 50% to win the hand. Moreover, if someone calls, less than 50% of the pot will be your money (the blinds and anybody who called to see the flop's money). Therefore, EVERY TIME YOU PUSH ALL IN, you are getting a positive expected value.

Of course, I was thinking more in situations such as

I have KhQh
Flop comes 10h Jh 3s

or I have 8c 9c
and the flop comes 10h Jc 5c

types of things. Not big obvious superdrawing boards such as that mentioned in the original post, but that's just me.

If there are people looking to "protect" two pair, overpair, or hell, even top pair when I have an OESFD...and the bets get to be at least 2-3x the initial pot, I'm going all in.

Hell, they might even fold and then I've got all that money without even having to draw. :cool:

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That's the way I think man, hell, GAMBLE IT UP A BIT!! :cool:.... as long as your BR can take a hit sometimes, that is...

-Chris

The thing that worried me was that in calling a preflop raise(the raise was made by someone who later folded), then raising me on the flop, I thought it was feasible that he could have flopped the flush, or may have the K or A to the flush, leaving me only 1 or 2 outs to win.

As it turns out, he didn't have a diamond, but flopped the straight, so I had to catch any diamond to win(or runner runner the full house) or a K to split.

I just thought I'd play this one safely.

Your situation is a bit different, as there are THREE diamonds on the flop. I'd be weary too.

But for traditional OESFDs, there won't already be a flush on the board, so you SHOULD be drawing to the nuts, or near nuts. Therefore, I push all in.

I think I would have played your hand similar to you, but a little bit more aggressive on the flop.

Just to clarify, my reply was for the above hand, I don't even know what OESFD stands for!

OESFD on the flop. I'm getting it all in there if someone else is willing.

I'm a gambl0r.

-'rilla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Just to clarify, my reply was for the above hand, I don't even know what OESFD stands for!

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OESFD =
open ended straight (and) flush draw

ordinarily, i'd be willing to all-in for an oesfd, but most of your outs are durrty. i play cautious here.

Push all in only if you are sure that your flush and straight will hold up if you make them. I prefer the situation where you are using both of your cards instead of one (at least for the flush).

I seriously doubt I'd have checked that. And I expect I'd have called an all-in on the flop, though possibly not on the turn. Given that the board is slightly dangerous, I'd honestly have to be in the situation and know how my feel for the opponent was.

One thing you failed to mention was that not only did you flop the OESFD, but you also flopped TP. That increases your outs further. I don't see how you could put this guy on the flopped straight to know that any of your outs were dirty. I definitely bet the river. He's probably going to fold, since his turn check says that he's scared of you having the flush, but it's worth betting 1/2 the pot just to see if you can extract more from his curiousity.

- Jeffrey

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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I seriously doubt I'd have checked that. And I expect I'd have called an all-in on the flop, though possibly not on the turn. Given that the board is slightly dangerous, I'd honestly have to be in the situation and know how my feel for the opponent was.

One thing you failed to mention was that not only did you flop the OESFD, but you also flopped TP. That increases your outs further. I don't see how you could put this guy on the flopped straight to know that any of your outs were dirty. I definitely bet the river. He's probably going to fold, since his turn check says that he's scared of you having the flush, but it's worth betting 1/2 the pot just to see if you can extract more from his curiousity.

- Jeffrey

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So if I play against you and flop a flush I should just put you all in, expecting that you will call with any flush draw in your hand? If another diamond falls a 10 of diamonds makes a good second best hand, people do after all play mostly high cards. I wouldn't give the straight draw much value at all on a 3 suited flop. The last thing you want to do is draw dead or close to it with the 2 outs for the straight flush...

I like how you played the OESFD (Open-Ended Straight-Flush Draw...notice the hyphen on Straight-Flush...not straight (and) flush) up until until you got the boat. You knew he couldn't have had a SF. There is a poss he had Qs over Js, but that'd just be a bad beat. And your odds of winning were like 98%

You should've just raised the largest bet you'd think he'd still call on the river. You either would've got re-raised all-in (easy call to take it), a Straight call ( win a few more chips at least), or He'd have folded (You take down the current pot). But...that wasn't the question huh? Sorry! HA!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I seriously doubt I'd have checked that. And I expect I'd have called an all-in on the flop, though possibly not on the turn. Given that the board is slightly dangerous, I'd honestly have to be in the situation and know how my feel for the opponent was.

One thing you failed to mention was that not only did you flop the OESFD, but you also flopped TP. That increases your outs further. I don't see how you could put this guy on the flopped straight to know that any of your outs were dirty. I definitely bet the river. He's probably going to fold, since his turn check says that he's scared of you having the flush, but it's worth betting 1/2 the pot just to see if you can extract more from his curiousity.

- Jeffrey

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So if I play against you and flop a flush I should just put you all in, expecting that you will call with any flush draw in your hand? If another diamond falls a 10 of diamonds makes a good second best hand, people do after all play mostly high cards. I wouldn't give the straight draw much value at all on a 3 suited flop. The last thing you want to do is draw dead or close to it with the 2 outs for the straight flush...

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You play against me and flop a flush, sure, go ahead and push if you'd like. Whether or not I call depends, as I said above, on my read on you and the cards in my hand. That said, neglecting reads you're right that calling a push on the flop is bad. I totally wasn't thinking about that right. So yeah...I'll back up and say that it was played right 'til the river.

- Jeffrey

Then again...I don't remember the last time I saw someone push a flopped flush. That's where reads enter into it though. I'd expect most decent players to try to extract some chips when they flop a flush - especially when one that would beat the flushes I could catch.

- Jeffrey

I was planning on pushing, but got beat to it. Sure affects your image. Guy goes "What? You moron wtf draw crap."

***** Hand History for Game 1756784432 *****
$50 NL Hold'em - Friday, March 18, 23:24:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 37177 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: SandiaSnow ( $39.15 )
Seat 8: brit_1132000 ( $38.7 )
Seat 10: ChakaKahn ( $46 )
Seat 1: SlappYou ( $51 )
Seat 5: Breadman21 ( $49.5 )
Seat 6: blaxploitate ( $120.8 )
SlappYou posts small blind [$0.25].
Breadman21 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SlappYou [ Qs Ks ]
blaxploitate folds.
brit_1132000 raises [$3].
ChakaKahn folds.
SlappYou calls [$2.75].
Breadman21 calls [$2.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 5c, Ts ]
SlappYou bets [$7].
Breadman21 calls [$7].
brit_1132000 is all-In [$35.7]
SlappYou is all-In [$41]
>You have options at Table 36769 Table!.
Breadman21 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9d ]
SlappYou shows [ Qs, Ks ] a straight, nine to king.
brit_1132000 doesn't show [ Ah, As ] a pair of aces.
SlappYou wins $12.3 from side pot #1 with a straight, nine to king.
SlappYou wins $85.4 from the main pot with a straight, nine to king.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I was planning on pushing, but got beat to it. Sure affects your image. Guy goes "What? You moron wtf draw crap."

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"Wrong, fou. It's a super draw."

-'rilla