I can't decide if I'm a fool or not for making this call...

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02-22-2005, 01:13 PM
Molinero

I can't decide if I'm a fool or not for making this call...

$10 cash game; I'm on the button. Game is 5-handed.

Two or three limp to me.

I hold: 6 :club: 4 :heart:

So, I raise to 4BB. SB calls, BB folds, MP calls.

FLOP:

10 :spade: 8 :spade: 4 :spade:

It's checked around to me, so I throw out a pot-sized bet. SB folds; MP thinks for a while and calls. I think, "He's on a flush draw".

TURN:

8 :diamond:

MP checks it to me; I bet the pot again. He goes into the tank for a while, then says "Well, this may be a bad move, but I'm all in."

Here's the critical issue: I know this guy fairly well, as a player. I KNOW he will call bluff bets if he's on a good draw -- regardless of the pot odds. He figured I was bluffing the flush (which, obviously, is the case), and he made a move on me.

I also know he's not above going all-in in desperation when he has nothing but a draw.

So, I went into the tank. I was certain he had not hit a flush *yet*; in fact, given his hesitation after each bet, I was fairly convinced he had not yet paired, either.

I had absolutely no doubt that he was still chasing the flush. So, if

a. he hasn't paired
b. he hasn't flushed
c. he hasn't tripped

then I am ahead with one card to come (pair of 4s). There's a healthy amount of money (by our standards) in the pot at this point, and it doesn't put me all-in to call.

What would you do?

(results later)
02-22-2005, 01:23 PM
UG

Re: I can't decide if I'm a fool or not for making this call

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

What would you do?

Fold preflop.
02-22-2005, 01:27 PM
TylerK

This wasn't a great hand to get involved with preflop.

My assessment is that you're behind to top pair or possibly trips. Fold.
02-22-2005, 01:30 PM
Spook

Factors I didn't see mentioned:

What is YOUR table image like?
What do you think his read on you was?
Who had the larger stack?
Is this player likely to do some acting to get you to call?

It will all be about how much you trust your reads on the player. Forgetting the question of what you were doing in the hand in the first place, it is now about how much you trust your observations.
02-22-2005, 01:34 PM
ilikeaces86

yes you are a fool for making that call if thats what you wanted to know.
02-22-2005, 01:36 PM
Tottenham

Were you expecting to take the pot outright with your initial bet? IMO, that flop has too many ways to lose for me to carry on with the hand.
02-22-2005, 01:40 PM
Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook

Factors I didn't see mentioned:

What is YOUR table image like?
What do you think his read on you was?
Who had the larger stack?
Is this player likely to do some acting to get you to call?

It will all be about how much you trust your reads on the player. Forgetting the question of what you were doing in the hand in the first place, it is now about how much you trust your observations.

Good questions -- especially the one about being in the hand in the first place.

I had been card-dead for the first couple of hours that night. After posting and folding or getting sucked out all night, the guys knew my raises meant business (especially since I had shown a few choice hands).

This guy in particular knows that I raise with premium hands, and that I get super agressive when I get one. So I told myself I was going to raise off the button the next time it limped to me, regardless of my cards.

In all, I think my table image was favorable for this kind of a play. I had him by about 50% stack-wise, and he doesn't act much: it's fairly easy to see when he's drawing and doesn't like it.
02-22-2005, 01:42 PM
Molinero

Re: I can't decide if I'm a fool or not for making this call

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

What would you do?

Fold preflop.

So, when you choose to bluff preflop on the button, do you only do so with AA or KK? Cuz that's not a bluff... ;)
02-22-2005, 01:47 PM
ilikeaces86

I only play AA and I make about 30k a year doing it. :wink:
02-22-2005, 01:56 PM
Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

I only play AA and I make about 30k a year doing it. :wink:

I'm going to assume that you do this online, when you have the ability to multi-table it.

I cannot fathom how stupefyingly dull poker would be if I posted and folded until I was dealt aces, nor how dissatisfying it would be to win a couple of blinds each time because my opponents ran screaming at the sight of me reaching for my chips.

I mostly only play at home, and at the occasional card room.

Of course, if you really do sit there and gather cobwebs waiting for bullets at a live game, and you manage 30k a year, then more power to you.
02-22-2005, 01:57 PM
UG

Re: I can't decide if I'm a fool or not for making this call

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

What would you do?

Fold preflop.

So, when you choose to bluff preflop on the button, do you only do so with AA or KK? Cuz that's not a bluff... ;)

Yeah, pretty much. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I still wouldn't have played THIS hand. I'm down for playing spaced connectors every now and then, but at least make sure they're suited so you have more outs.

I guess I can see playing this hand if you've got a tight table image...but if you get called, you're probably in trouble.

If you can't take this hand down preflop, and still can't take it down after the flop, you're probably beat. The dude could be rolling with a pair of 5's and have you by the balls. Or he could be on a flush draw. Or he could have two overs for six outs.

It probably worked out for you, but you're a fool for playing this hand the way you did. JMO.
02-22-2005, 02:02 PM
UG

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

I only play AA and I make about 30k a year doing it. :wink:

SARCASM HA HA I GET IT DOOD

Too bad he didn't.
02-22-2005, 02:08 PM
Laeelin

Quote:

win a couple of blinds each time because my opponents ran screaming at the sight of me reaching for my chips

People are looking at me like i'm crazy.

I dont know exactly why that struck me as so funny, but I still have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard.
02-22-2005, 02:11 PM
Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

I only play AA and I make about 30k a year doing it. :wink:

SARCASM HA HA I GET IT DOOD

Too bad he didn't.

...and I guess there's always the possibility that you were pulling my leg...lol...
02-22-2005, 04:02 PM
Greedo017

too much to risk when all you beat is a flush draw or a bluff. If i were in a situation where making money was important, like everyday ring game playing, i'd fold.

BUT, if this game has been a little bit loose, or friendly, or if it really wasn't too much more to call his all-in... I think there's a decent chance you're right. it sounds like you called him. but, i personally don't think things went your way.
02-22-2005, 04:07 PM
DrumzCT

I've gotten in to trouble like this where i try to steal. the flop is checked to me and i bet the pot. then check raised or bet into hard on the turn

this is the problem with trying to steal then catching something that causes that crazy gambler in your head to justify calling.

dont let the crazy gambler be louder then the poker player
02-22-2005, 04:12 PM
ilikeaces86

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

I only play AA and I make about 30k a year doing it. :wink:

SARCASM HA HA I GET IT DOOD

Too bad he didn't.

...and I guess there's always the possibility that you were pulling my leg...lol...

Yes there is always that possibility.........
02-22-2005, 04:26 PM
Molinero

sry
02-22-2005, 04:26 PM
Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrumzCT

dont let the crazy gambler be louder then the poker player

I like that.

FYI: I decided that, at worst, I was facing a flush draw, possibly with an overpair. And, again, I felt there was a really good chance he had no pair at all. So, I called.

He holds: 9 :spade: 7 :club:

RIVER: 5 :heart:

I win.

As it turns out, he had 23 outs to my 21, if you count as his outs things that pair the board.

I just felt very strongly that my read on him was correct, and that at worst it was a coin flip for half of my remaining stack in order to win a substantial pot. And I'll admit: I was a little tilty that night, too... :d
02-22-2005, 04:28 PM
TylerK

Nice read.
02-22-2005, 04:34 PM
UG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

I only play AA and I make about 30k a year doing it. :wink:

SARCASM HA HA I GET IT DOOD

Too bad he didn't.

...and I guess there's always the possibility that you were pulling my leg...lol...

Hey man, you're all right. We try to keep it a little loose around here from time to time.

BTW, good job on the read. Way to take it down.
02-22-2005, 04:55 PM
johnnyawe

If you're asking a hypothetical question about whether to call if you KNOW FOR A FACT that he has no pair and was only drawing to a straight or flush (or both), then yes it would be correct to call with only one card to come.
02-22-2005, 06:32 PM
lolzzz_321

Raise or fold
02-22-2005, 06:45 PM
DrumzCT

Nice read man. That's one area I have to work on myself. Because it obviously pays off.
02-22-2005, 07:44 PM
lolzzz_321

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

And I'll admit: I was a little tilty that night, too... :d

Tipsy?

You know JKwon is cool... I wonder if a shake is comin with those fries?
02-22-2005, 08:02 PM
LeFou

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptanes

Raise or fold

I have never succesfully raised an all-in bet against one opp in my life!!!!11

In all seriousness, I'm with johnnawe. Any uncertainty in your read would change things, but the call is correct when you "know" you're ahead. And I like saying I'll bluff at time X regardless of the cards. This makes it impossible to read you.

And what's with the abuse? Of course you fold 64o preflop. Molinero knows that. (maybe the problem is you guys don't know Molinero?)

Let's be civil. I think it was a good question on a cool hand.
02-23-2005, 12:07 PM
Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyawe

If you're asking a hypothetical question about whether to call if you KNOW FOR A FACT that he has no pair and was only drawing to a straight or flush (or both), then yes it would be correct to call with only one card to come.

Well put.

Obviously, I can't know *for a fact*; but I was 98% sure about the draw, and willing to take my chances on no pair, because he seemed really weak.

So, do you make the call if you're less than 100% sure he hasn't an overpair?
02-23-2005, 03:11 PM
LeFou

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyawe

If you're asking a hypothetical question about whether to call if you KNOW FOR A FACT that he has no pair and was only drawing to a straight or flush (or both), then yes it would be correct to call with only one card to come.

Well put.

Obviously, I can't know *for a fact*; but I was 98% sure about the draw, and willing to take my chances on no pair, because he seemed really weak.

So, do you make the call if you're less than 100% sure he hasn't an overpair?

It's getting academic. You can't know sh** for a fact; even if you could read opps' mind there's always the chance that they remember their own cards wrong.

What you want to make sure you're not doing is convincing yourself that your read is Really Solid just to give yourself an excuse to make a bad call.
02-23-2005, 04:52 PM
Molinero

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

What you want to make sure you're not doing is convincing yourself that your read is Really Solid just to give yourself an excuse to make a bad call.

THAT is preCISEly what I'm afraid of.

And hey -- I just became a 'Flush'!
02-23-2005, 05:49 PM
LeFou

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

And hey -- I just became a 'Flush'!

Congrats.

One more point: If you get this read and make this call but lose this pot, you have to salvage the non-monetary value of the play, i.e. the image you've created as someone who will call. Cf. your bluff versus me, and Robbins's usual AI with the fourflush, both of which I called with bottom pair. Lost both pots, of course, but the theory is that people will (someday) stop pulling that crap against me, or at least stop sucking out the wins maybe.