A hand that's been bugging me

I'd like some information on how some of you would have played this hand.

Home game with 12 people at 1 table. Early position raises to $17. Called in 4 places over to me in the cut-off with KK. I re-raise to $40. All fold to tight player on my right who folded pocket kings earlier pre-flop and showed it. He calls.

I now think I'm up against AA. Flop comes 10 high rainbow. He checks. I bet $80. He calls.

Turn comes A. He checks. I check.

River is a blank. He bets $100. I fold. He shows me KK, saying after checking when the A came out, he put me on QQ. He also said he almost folded to my preflop raise thinking I had AA.

I had him on AA the whole time. KK didn't even cross my mind.

Thoughts on what I should do differently?

Yeah, don't lay down your KK.

I would have pushed preflop. With 4 callers of the raise there was a lot of dead money out there for you to pick up with an AI move pre-flop. Your opponent may or may not have called but you would have split.

Flop bet was fine.

Turn was suspicious. I would have bet the A like I had it to see what he does.

River I call b/c of the size of the pot.

Overall, push preflop or on flop with that hand. But overall, not a horrible play or laydown.

I'll second what was said above: When the A was checked to you, you need to bet it like you have it. Probably could have won it right there rather than getting nothing if you folded or splitting if you'd stayed in.

- Jeffrey

I third it. Bet the ace. Your opponent is on one of the 4 premium hands, and it sounds like he's got you on one of the same. When he checks the ace, you've GOT to see if it scares him. If he comes over top of you... well, that's just a brilliant move on his part.

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Originally Posted by Fortune 500

I third it. Bet the ace. Your opponent is on one of the 4 premium hands, and it sounds like he's got you on one of the same. When he checks the ace, you've GOT to see if it scares him. If he comes over top of you... well, that's just a brilliant move on his part.

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absolutely, positionally bet the ace....1/4 to 1/2 the pot...see what he does....you said he is very risk averse dropping k's preflop, so he should be disciplined to fold if he doesn't have it....

I'll 5th what was said above. Shortest post I ever wrote.

Oh what the hell, I'll 6th it. I'm trying to post more lately anyways. :lol:

(Usually with a little more content than this though.) :wink:

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Originally Posted by TopThis

He shows me KK, saying after checking when the A came out, he put me on QQ. He also said he almost folded to my preflop raise thinking I had AA.

I had him on AA the whole time. KK didn't even cross my mind.

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One suggestion for the future - when you're posting a hand like this for analysis don't include the results of the hand until after several people have replied. It's easy to say "call the $100" when you know the other guy also had KK. It wouldn't be so easy to make that decision without knowing your opponents hole cards.


Such as it is, I'm with those who said move AI preflop. That many hands stood a raise to $17, at least one would be able to call and you'd be a huge favorite.

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Originally Posted by LockLow34

One suggestion for the future - when you're posting a hand like this for analysis don't include the results of the hand until after several people have replied. It's easy to say "call the $100" when you know the other guy also had KK. It wouldn't be so easy to make that decision without knowing your opponents hole cards.

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Excellent suggestion. I appreciate it.

Here is why I did not bet the turn. After he called my preflop re-raise I had to put him on AA. He had folded KK pre-flop earlier. Tight player. I feel like I errored in that when putting him on a hand, KK never crossed my mind. The only other hand he would play there is AA.

I felt like his checking was a trap. I bet about 2/3rds the pot on the flop and he called. After the A hit on the turn, there's close to $300 in the pot. I only have about $150 left at this point and I'm pretty sure I'm beat.

I realize everyone here is right, I errored in not betting the turn. The question is how much should I have bet? Half a pot size bet would have basically put me all in. Anything less than my flop bet of $80 just looks weak, and anything more makes me pot commited in which case I should just shove all in anyway.

I am going to disagree with everyone and say you played it exactly as I would IF you put him on AA. To me, it sounds like a lot of these posts are by overly agressive players who aren't thinking about what their opponent has. I don't ever move all-in pre flop. I will reraise the pot, and if that is about what i have in front of me, then maybe I'll push. But why risk all your chips when your against a player who will only call when you are beat?

If I didn't go all-in preflop, then I probably would've done it on the flop. I don't mind losing Kings to Aces.

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Originally Posted by TopThis

The question is how much should I have bet? Half a pot size bet would have basically put me all in. Anything less than my flop bet of $80 just looks weak, and anything more makes me pot commited in which case I should just shove all in anyway.

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Assuming you're playing within your bankroll, going all-in on a ring game isn't that big a deal in the short term. I know that home games are sometimes different than other play, so I could see that it's a tad different. Normal ring game, I'd say bet the same $100 that he ended up betting later. Problem is that basically commits you even if he does have it. I didn't realize how short stacked you were relative to the blinds + pot. That makes the read on him more important.

Had this guy pulled similar traps previously? If he was capable of such, I'd probably have played similar to you if I was confident in that read (as it sounds you are and I could see how). If such traps weren't common by him, bet the $100 or even push.

- Jeffrey

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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

To me, it sounds like a lot of these posts are by overly agressive players who aren't thinking about what their opponent has. I don't ever move all-in pre flop. I will reraise the pot, and if that is about what i have in front of me, then maybe I'll push. But why risk all your chips when your against a player who will only call when you are beat?

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Preflop, many people would call an all-in with QQ. That said, I agree. I think his preflop play was completely fine. Aside from what I mentioned above considering his stack, I still disagree with the play.

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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

I am going to disagree with everyone and say you played it exactly as I would IF you put him on AA.

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Agreed, if confident in the read. I'd say you couldn't determine this by the guy's tightness alone. Thus as above, determine if he'd play the check-trap with the Aces or not based on previous play.

I'll note that in my experience, aggression is rewarded much more in NL than passiveness. I'm no expert by any means, but there's no shortage of players better than me who would agree about this. In answer to the "Why raise if the only people who will call have you beat?" question, there's one simple answer: Because there may well be people who won't call that also have you beat. If he'd have bet the ace, would someone with A2 have been able to call? Nope. But they could certainly bet the turn when he checked.

- Jeffrey

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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

I am going to disagree with everyone and say you played it exactly as I would IF you put him on AA. To me, it sounds like a lot of these posts are by overly agressive players who aren't thinking about what their opponent has. I don't ever move all-in pre flop. I will reraise the pot, and if that is about what i have in front of me, then maybe I'll push. But why risk all your chips when your against a player who will only call when you are beat?

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he checked the ace, you could bet 1/4 of the pot and instantly know what he has....checking it means you are laying down the hand (because you wouldn't call a bet on the river if the K didn't come)...

I don't beleive its an 'overly aggressive play' its a correct informational play, I could understand checking it and being prepared to lay them down as well though....however, you had position on him and you gave that advantage away.....

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[quote="Ripptyde"]

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Originally Posted by gregor

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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

. I don't ever move all-in pre flop.

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????

no offense man ...but you have a lot to learn about playing texas holdem if you NEVER move all in pre flop

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All in Pre-Flop is one of my most profitable moves

Doesn't the fact that his opponent didn't go all in preflop pretty much mean he doesn't have AA? If I had AA in that situation, wouldn't it be beneficial to go all in preflop after his 40 dollar raise? That's a lot of money in the pot. Might as well take it down right then. If he calls you'll probably just get more.

Please move all in preflop, there is ONE hand that beats you preflop.