Most Outs Possible...

Hey guys... just a interesting topic... I was thinking and I started to wonder what is the most amount of outs you can possibly have... I've been told 21.. however would like to know the real truth. Along with the answer an example would be nice... so therefor when someone says "man I had like 25 outs" I can gladly step up and say there is only x possible... This is after a flop ofcourse... and if so to get the most outs... a turn card... figured this could stir up something interesting and is something good to know and look for..

thanks

Vesh

ok heres an example... if someone can find more outs... shut me up by showing another example.. here it goes.

Hole Cards [Qc Jc]
vs.
Opponent [10h8h]

Flop [10c 3h 2c]

your both all in and cards are turned

as of this point you have 3 q's + 3 j's + 9 clubs = 15 outs

Turn [Ks]

Now 3 q's + 3 j's + 3 a's + 3 9's + 9 clubs = 21 outs

only 3 aces and 3 9's due to the overlaping of the flush possibility...

Well there is my 21 outter... as many outs as i could find in one hand... if you can find more... I would be glad to see it.

Vesh

There are situations where you can pick up more outs on the turn...

Opp 8d9d
You 9sJs

Flop
8sTsTd

Turn Ac

On the flop I count 18 (9spades, 6 non-spade strt cards, 3 Js ) but after the turn you pick up 3 more since an A would counterfeit your opps low pair...

21 probably isn't the most you can have but it is all I can think of...

- sed

You beat me to a 21outer...

What about omaha :twisted:

brain hurts...

- sed

Opp 8d9d
You JsQs

Flop
9sTsTd

Turn Ac

On the flop I count 21 (9spades, 6 non-spade strt cards, 3 Js, 3Qs ) but after the turn you pick up 3 more since an A would counterfeit your opps low pair...

haha 24

- sed

only pick up 2 more... cause one of the aces is a spade but your right... would be 23...

How many outs do you count if this is the hand?

You hold: :kd: :qd:

Opponet has: :2h: :2s:


Flop: :jd: :td: :7c:

21?

3K's
3Q's
3nine's
3Ace's

9diamonds.

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Originally Posted by superdave

How many outs do you count if this is the hand?

You hold: :kd: :qd:

Opponet has: :2h: :2s:


Flop: :jd: :td: :7c:

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More outs:

You hold: :kd: :qd:

Opponent: :2h: :2s:


Flop: :jd: :td: :th:

outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.

If the turn is none of the above (and not a 2), you pick up another 3 outs, making 27 for the river

nice example guys... goodjob... 27 outs... is looking like the most possible... i dont see how you can get more then that...

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.

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You missed an ace.

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.

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You missed an ace.

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One ace is a diamond. And actually, to correct myself, you have 26 outs on the river, not 27, because one of those would be a diamond too.

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.

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You missed an ace.

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One ace is a diamond. And actually, to correct myself, you have 26 outs on the river, not 27, because one of those would be a diamond too.

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Good point. :oops:

And just to be silly, runner-runner 10's would also be a win for you.. as well as 9-8 so maybe call it another 1/4 of an out.

Just to break the idea, because I'm an ass like that:

You: :Ac: :As:
Opponent: :7c: :2d:

Flop: :Ad: :Ah: :Kh:

The remaining 43 cards in the deck are all outs, because your opponent is drawing dead.

I couldn't beat 26, so I went with this. Feel free to flog me, while I try to think of a real answer .... :D

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

Quote:

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.

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You missed an ace.

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One ace is a diamond. And actually, to correct myself, you have 26 outs on the river, not 27, because one of those would be a diamond too.

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The :2d: gives your opponent a boat, so can't be counted, either.

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Originally Posted by Zangief

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

Quote:

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.

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You missed an ace.

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One ace is a diamond. And actually, to correct myself, you have 26 outs on the river, not 27, because one of those would be a diamond too.

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The :2d: gives your opponent a boat, so can't be counted, either.

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Thank you, good point. So 23 outs on the turn, 25 on the river is the most I can think of.

And of course, this would only ever be relevant in a situation where you knew your opponent had that hand, etc.

Just to make sure, I tried a double belly buster straight flush draw. No more outs showed up.

You: :Qs::Ts:
Opponent: :2h::2d:

Board: :As::Js::8h::8d:

Outs: 3 x Q, 3 x T, 3 x A, 3 x J, 3 x K, 3 x 9, 7 diamonds (not 8 or 2) = 25

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Originally Posted by Zangief

Just to make sure, I tried a double belly buster straight flush draw. No more outs showed up.

You: :Qs::Ts:
Opponent: :2h::2d:

Board: :As::Js::8h::8d:

Outs: 3 x Q, 3 x T, 3 x A, 3 x J, 3 x K, 3 x 9, 7 diamonds (not 8 or 2) = 25

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Yeah, same thing basically, because you have the OESD on the previos example. The most outs possible on any straight draw is 8 (or 6, when you strip out the redundant flush outs).

I think there are more outs than 23 or 25 avaibable, but you would need a simulator to confirm it.

Let's say I have AKd

opponent has 2/3os

Flop is 9d, 10c, 8d

The only outs that your opponent has is 6 out of 45 (47 if we assume he doesn't know your cards).

All the remaining 39 cards are outs for you.

There could be ties if the board flops a straight, Flush (except diamonds), or boat.

two pairs on board and Quads would be OK, cause u have A kicker

There are probaby more than 30 outs here, but a program would need to calcuate the combination of out cards that are Ok individually, but not OK when combined.

Did that make any sense???

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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

I think there are more outs than 23 or 25 avaibable, but you would need a simulator to confirm it.

Let's say I have AKd

opponent has 2/3os

Flop is 9d, 10c, 8d

The only outs that your opponent has is 6 out of 45 (47 if we assume he doesn't know your cards).

All the remaining 39 cards are outs for you.

There could be ties if the board flops a straight, Flush (except diamonds), or boat.

two pairs on board and Quads would be OK, cause u have A kicker

There are probaby more than 30 outs here, but a program would need to calcuate the combination of out cards that are Ok individually, but not OK when combined.

Did that make any sense???

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Eh, when people say outs, I think it is meant as in the sense that you are currently losing and how many cards remaining in the deck can give you the winning hand. In your example, the Ace is already winning the hand, so when you are counting the outs, it should be for the guy with 23o.

I guess to figure out how many are possible we first need to define "outs."

Is an out to you how many cards in the deck are available to turn your hand from a dog into a winner

-or-

Is an out any card that does not adversely affect your hand.

Because in Arctic Knight's scenario, i don't really consider those "outs" as you are already dominating the hand and are not looking for a way out to win. Your opponet is calculating outs at this point, you are calculating safety cards.

yeah the most i could think of was 25 to :P


-anto

oooops you guys are right.

though "outs" is open to interpretation, I think I'm stretching it when you are known to be ahead already.

In real life though we are calucating what we think are outs, some of which just get us deeper into a lost hand.

It's a trick question anyway. Poker isn't about the cards. ;)

-'rilla

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It's a trick question anyway. Poker isn't about the cards. ;)

-'rilla

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lol rilla always giving ur .02 ;)


-anto

I'm reading SSH right now, and they've come up with an example where you're behind n the turn, but all 44 remaining cards will give you an out to either a split pot or a win. So I guess 44 outs is the most mathematically possible. HEre's the example, lifted directly from a hand quiz on counting outs in SSH:

Your Hand: Ad 2d
Your Opponent: As 3s

Board:Ac 8d 8h 2h

A: You have two outs to win (2 deuces) and 42 outs to tie (every other card). The pair of eights counterfeits your bottom pair, so you have aces and eights with a deuce. Your opponent has aces and eights with a trey, so he is currently "ahead." A deuce o the river gives you deuces full of aces, but it does not improve your opponent. Any other card counterfeits your opponents kicker - he cannot win. Even a trey counterfiets his kicker, since it will leave you with aces and eights with a trey.

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Your Hand: Ad 2d
Your Opponent: As 3s

Board:Ac 8d 8h 2h

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Ehm... you´re not behind, you have 2pair.

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Originally Posted by Waggho

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Your Hand: Ad 2d
Your Opponent: As 3s

Board:Ac 8d 8h 2h

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Ehm... you´re not behind, you have 2pair.

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Look at it closer... You're TECHNICALLY outkicked.
Your hand:AA882
Opponent:AA883

That's a great example. The entire deck as outs... brilliant.

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Originally Posted by Fortune 500

You have two outs to win (2 deuces) and 42 outs to tie (every other card).

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While I'm amazed by this example, I don't think the outs are counted correctly. Outs to a split must be halved, since you are winning half as much money. So in this case, you have 2 outs + 42 / 2 outs = 2 + 21 = 23. This is fewer than the earlier examples.

I guess it depends on what you classify as an out. What's funny is the same book (SSH) has a nice section on partial outs, but neglects to pay attention to it when counting hidden outs.

Don't bitch at me, man... I'm just quoting :)

there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

great, so you can maximize outs with AKs vs 23o....whatever.....

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Originally Posted by gregor

there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

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Why is this?

I have JT and flopped an OESD but don't have odds to chase. But I read my opponent for 77. Now I do have odds to chase with the 6 extra outs to a better pair.

This was just a fun little question, anyway.

-'rilla

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Originally Posted by gregor

there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

great, so you can maximize outs with AKs vs 23o....whatever.....

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who crapped in your cheerios?

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Originally Posted by Fortune 500

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gregor

there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

great, so you can maximize outs with AKs vs 23o....whatever.....

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who crapped in your cheerios?

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My bad. I really, really had to go.

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Originally Posted by gregor

there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

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You're throwing away a huge number of starting hands if you can't compute outs and translate those to pot odds. Or you are using those hands, not calculating your outs and throwing away money.

glad i started such a nice topic for once... and a i read all the replies... it looks like 25 is gonna be the most... i sat down for a good hour searching for hands most i could come up with was 25... so im gonna put that as my final answer.

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Originally Posted by Zangief

Just to break the idea, because I'm an ass like that:

You: :Ac: :As:
Opponent: :7c: :2d:

Flop: :Ad: :Ah: :Kh:

The remaining 43 cards in the deck are all outs, because your opponent is drawing dead.

I couldn't beat 26, so I went with this. Feel free to flog me, while I try to think of a real answer .... :D

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The turn is the :Ad: , river is a Joker.
Misdeal is declared dealer is fired, casino erupts in to chaos and while the fight around you distracts you the other guy steals all the chips off the table and flies to Bermuda.


Hey! It could happen!

lmfao... COULD... however unlikely

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gregor

there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

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Why is this?

I have JT and flopped an OESD but don't have odds to chase. But I read my opponent for 77. Now I do have odds to chase with the 6 extra outs to a better pair.

This was just a fun little question, anyway.

-'rilla

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obviously, I'm not saying calculating outs isn't important...just that in most situations, if you have AKs, you aren't going to be putting someone on a 23 with junk on the board....