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I don´t really understand the idea of playing low or medium suited connectors. Why would they be much valuable than unsuited ones? If you do hit a flush with say 98s, there is a pretty big risk that someone has a higher flush than you do and therefore you can´t be much confident in your betting. It seems to me that you would lose due to higher flushes as much or even more than you win with it.
And it ain´t often that you hit a straight flush with them.
It's not a "huge" risk that you run into bigger flushes. It exists, but doesn't happen near enough to make suited and unsuited connectors equivalent in value.
-'rilla
I don't know the numbers on it, but it seems like my flushes (however high they are) rarely lose to higher flushes. Bear in mind, even at a full table there won't be that many suited hands, and out of those even fewer will be suited the same as yours... and out of THOSE, fewer still will be two high cards (AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ) or connecting, which means they will often be folded pre-flop, depending on who holds them. I know I don't often play Kx, Qx, or Jx suited (where the x is any card lower than a 9). You do have to worry about Ax suited, which a lot of people play, but it seems to me that the vast majority of the time when you hit a flush, that Ax suited isn't lurking out there to take your money. I wouldn't worry about it much.
we tend to remember out beats more than wins. you won't lose flush to flush very often.
OH, I love suited connectors! You need many limpers and a favorable flop and they can be very profitable.
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8s, 7s.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.
Flop: (7.33 SB) 7c, Ts, 9s (7 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.
Turn: (11.66 BB) 3s (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.
River: (17.66 BB) 8c (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.
Final Pot: 23.66 BB
Results below:
UTG+1 has 8d 6d (straight, ten high).
UTG+2 has Qs Jh (straight, queen high).
Hero has 8s 7s (flush, ten high).
Outcome: Hero wins 23.66 BB.
Alright I am a little confused with suited connectors myself and I have a couple of questions, and this has to do with hitting your flush rather than straight. Lets say you hold 98s and hit your flush on the flop or turn. Are you willing to bet really aggressively on a 9-high flush? I understand that the odds of someone holding a higher flush is slim, but are you willing to put all your chips in the pot if you get reraised all in? Also, dalecooper, you mentioned that it is unlikely people will play Kxs or Qxs, but is it really that unlikely? You have to remember the reason you're in this pot from the beginning is because it was unraised preflop, so why would it seem so unlikely for someone to limp with say K3s, just for the chance of hitting a high flush? (I've seen Negraneau play Q2s in the WSOP.) I mean with a hand like K3s the only other hand you really have to be careful of is Axs and the odds of someone holding Axs are very very slim. It just seems like I'm in a funny position when I hit my flush with medium to low suited connectors, because it's hard (for me anyway) to put all my chips in the pot on a weak flush, especially with one or two more cards to come. Maybe this is where I'm wrong and I need to be more aggressive? What do you guys think?
First thing, yeah, I'm typically willing to put all my money in with any flush using both of my hole cards, but of course there are exceptions. Its similar to folding JJ or AK preflop with big blinds. You're typically willing to put all your money in unless you read a ton of strength from one or two players, like a huge overbet by a tight passive big stack, a big bet and a big reraise in front of you, etc.
But I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Suited connectors really aren't that good of cards for tight passive players, unless there's a ton of limpers. But they're very nice cards for an aggressive player that's looking to make a steal with any playable hand. If they get called preflop, they're probably going to bluff at most flops anyway, and now they have a good chance to hit a flop that gives them a good draw and a chance to win even if their bluff is called, a hand that can call some reraises, a hand that can reraise a pot sized bet all in and often get them to fold, but still have a solid chance to win if you are called, etc. If you're playing your draws aggressively, you may even drive out bigger draws, making the higher flush issue fairly mute.
For an aggressive player, hitting monsters on the flop is great, but only having a lot of outs, if your bluff does happen to get called or raised, is really necessary.
I'm usually not that worried about a bigger flush. Even on a pretty passive table with lots of limping, you should only be seeing flops with about four other players. The odds that one of those four has suited cards that match your suit and include at least one card higher than yours are just not that good. There's always wiggle room, of course... sometimes your flush is beat, and that's what post-flop play is supposed to determine. If you are raising on an obvious flush card and getting re-raised, sometimes you'll have to fold that weak flush, or maybe just call down and find out, as cheaply as possible, if you're beat. But that's true of a lot of hands.
About Kx and Qx suited, where x is a card smaller than 8 or 9... some players play them. My experience is that the majority don't, unless they're on one of the blinds. Anybody who has read the mainstream poker books has heard ad nauseum that these hands have a negative expectation, and they fold them from most seats. There are definitely players who will play these hands regularly, but I'd say it's a minority of the players you run into online. If even half of these hands are being folded at an average table, that's still good insurance that you won't run into higher flushes much, because the majority of hands involving higher cards in your suit won't be suited (i.e. you hold 78 of hearts; out of the 9-A of hearts, on average, only two or three of these cards will even be dealt pre-flop, and then a lot of the time none of them will be paired with another heart). What I'm saying is, quite often none of the higher cards in your suit will be part of a suited hand, and even when it does happen, half the time or better those hands will be folded pre-flop because they're weak unless the flush comes up.
As I typed up the last post, this hand comes along... how ironic...
***** Hand History for Game 1430572681 *****
$25 PL Hold'em - Thursday, January 13, 12:23:47 EDT 2005
Table Buttered popcorn (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: tdoggy11 ( $3.75 )
Seat 5: Ted_T ( $34.15 )
Seat 6: torac ( $60.05 )
Seat 7: JeffBoski ( $38.5 )
Seat 8: creekbottom ( $48.8 )
Seat 9: seluryug ( $14 )
Seat 10: EmuVengeance ( $9.8 )
Seat 2: stressball10 ( $22.75 )
Seat 4: NucMedTech ( $23.75 )
Seat 1: tj888 ( $3.25 )
torac posts small blind [$0.25].
JeffBoski posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 7h Ah ]
creekbottom folds.
seluryug folds.
EmuVengeance folds.
tj888 folds.
stressball10 calls [$0.5].
tdoggy11 folds.
NucMedTech folds.
Ted_T calls [$0.5].
torac calls [$0.25].
JeffBoski checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, Th, 8h ]
torac checks.
JeffBoski checks.
stressball10 checks.
Ted_T checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jd ]
torac checks.
JeffBoski bets [$1].
stressball10 calls [$1].
Ted_T calls [$1].
torac folds.
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
JeffBoski bets [$1].
stressball10 raises [$3].
Ted_T raises [$14.75].
JeffBoski folds.
stressball10 is all-In [$18.25]
Ted_T calls [$6.5].
Ted_T shows [ Kh, 6h ] a flush, king high.
stressball10 shows [ 7h, Ah ] a flush, ace high.
stressball10 wins $46.1 from the main pot with a flush, ace high with ace kicker.
It would appear to undermine my argument, but I still say you won't run into this kind of thing that often. The only problem is how to avoid losing a ton of money (like this guy did) when you do run into it. I would say perhaps if someone raises like that in front of you (as I did here, with a pretty blatant slowplay) - maybe don't re-raise. Just call for the $3 and see what happens. Or re-raise once (to $6) and see if another raise comes down. The biggest problem a lot of players have, even with good hands, is lack of patience. Don't convince yourself too quickly that your hand is the best one. This guy jammed all his money in as quickly as possible - why? What's the intended goal? If I didn't have the flush I surely would have folded and not paid him off. If I did have it, he's setting himself up for a world of hurt. He probably does better in the long run by just re-raising a few dollars here to find out what I've got. (Now I surely would have gone all in on him, and then he probably has to call... but at least he has a minute to think about it.)
If you play low suited connectors and are fortunate enough to make your flush (or straight for that matter) on the flop or turn, you need to be fairly aggressive with it because it can easily be counterfeited by another card of your suit.
If you're not willing to play them aggressively, you shouldn't be playing them in the first place.
I like suited connectors because they have the potential for open ended straights, flushes, and a straight flush. Yes, you may have some worry about a better flush, but it's not a huge worry and if you're lucky to get a straight flush, there will probably be no worry.
Another neat thing about flushes, The fact that you have a flush makes it *less* likely that an opponent has a flush. On the other hand, with a pocket pair, it's *more* likely an opponent will have a pocket pair.
They have a huge potential payoff when they hit and they are easy to let go of when they dont.
Man can not live on str8 draws alone.
Reading this thread, I discovered that Les_worm and Spook have the most beautiful avatars ever. Then I remembered, this is a poker forum!!
Back on topic: suited connectors are a hand with options, when they hit the right flop. If they miss, you can dump them immediately. If the draws hit, you just need to learn to not over play a small flush, or the lower end of a straight.
I still think Mike has the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveDonel
That's just plain old false!Quote:
Originally Posted by Waggho
I limp in with the LSC if i belive there will be alot of other limpers in the pot. Then i only play if i hit a 1 card draw to straight or flush, otherwise I check or fold. If I have an inside straight draw I fold if the odds tell me to...
But I just love when I have a 56h and the flop shows like "Ks 4h 7c".
Then it's totally invisible and can go undetected all the way to the end.
If it hits, you have a really good chanse to get others to call your all-in and double up!
I like 'em... But I always want to come in cheap. And I always fold if the flop doesn't show me what I want...
* Two small pairs. All-in on the flop.
* Open ended straight draw, just play by the odds. It will probably go undetected anyway...
* Flushdraw, play by the odds. Be careful on the showdown when it hits.
This is my way... But I'm pretty new to the world poker...