JJ & TT - Why so high rated??? I don't like 'em...

When I look at most pre-flop strategies i often see JJ rated very high, also TT. I wonder why??? How can JJ be higher rated than AKs, and TT over AK or AQs???
What's so different between JJ and 55???

The odds are 57% that the flop will show a higher pair (A K or Q) with JJ, and on the river the odds are 74%? So if they don't hit on the flop or turn then you have to let 'em go... And mutch worse with TT...

Why not just Limp in with JJ or TT like you do with 55? The games you win with only a pair of Jacks are pretty few so you almost have to hit the trips if you gonna have a chanse...

And if you don't raise your implied odds will be mutch better if the players with shitty cards choose to stay in the game...

Or am I missing something here??? Please help me sort my thoughts!

How do you play these pairs?

JJ and TT are touchy hands to get involved in. You are correct with the fact that it is a coinflip between any TWO over cards. Why you want to bet with them is so you can get it to at least a bare minimum heads up situation. You could limp and be safe, but why not be the aggressor and bet, if there is an over card on the flop and someone shows interest and they bet, fold. If you trip and someone shows interest in the A that hits the board, well your home free. Change it up, play around, see what makes you comfortable at the table, poker is a long term game, if you dont feel safe betting them, limp and fold.

They're much better to raise preflop with than 55 because some players really overvalue hands like AT and AJ, and lower pocket pairs, and that's not even counting the complete fish that'll call big bets with Axs or whatever. Some fish even called an all in of mine, when I had an average stack real late in a MTT last week, with KJ (I had AKs in this one, but JJ would've been just as good).

You're right though that they aren't great hands against the very tight players. You know if they bet or especially raise big that the very best case scenario for you is a coinflip, but it could easily be, if its not more likely to be, an overpair.

They're very good hands to have, but they aren't exactly monsters. Great hands to get to shove with when you're short stacked, though.

But yeah, not raising them preflop basically makes them much weaker hands that are just good for hoping to hit a set or a low flop. With many limpers, you know you're almost certainly beat if an overcard hits.

JJ/TT hold up pretty well heads up. So it's good to raise and make the pot larger while limiting the field. That said, they also play well in a multiway pot if you can get your set. So if many people have already entered the pot (making them more likely to call your raise and stay in), it might be best to limp until you see if you get your set and/or you know that the flop doesn't give someone a higher pair.

- Jeffrey

(That's basically regergitated Sklansky, btw. Take a look at Small Stakes Hold'em and Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Excalibur

The odds are 57% that the flop will show a higher pair (A K or Q) with JJ, and on the river the odds are 74%? So if they don't hit on the flop or turn then you have to let 'em go... And mutch worse with TT...

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heads up the odds of your opponent holding one of those cards is still only 50% on the river. just because an overcard falls doesn't mean your opponent has one.

The reason is because JJ/TT are overpairs to 99-22, while 55 is only dominant over 44-22. Alot of people play any PP hard, and with JJ you're either a coinflip or a huge favorite or in 3 situations a big dog.

with JJ I like to make a 3XBB raise pre flop, to scare off most Ax or Kx hands, if the board comes A9x I still like to make a 3/4th the pot bet just to c if my opp has the ace, if they come over the top ill fold but in most cases they will fold and youll take the pot down


-anto

JJ twice this Saturday night in a home game tournament. First time I raised 3X BB, was called by AKo. No overcard flopped and I bet the pot - he called (bad call). Turn was a king. I thought about firing another bet in, but I knew this guy well and checked it, and he predictably came back with a huge bet on his kings. I folded and just tried to forget it.

Half hour later, I raised the same with jacks and he called again. Flop came with one overcard, a king (irony). I stabbed at the pot immediately and remorselessly, and he folded this time. Didn't make back all the money from the first go round, but I was happy anyway.

lol JJ vs AK coin flip situation

53% to about 47%

in my short poker playing career ive noticed that its worked well for me if im first to enter a pot ill raise with JJ or TT. early position im wary of the reraise, but from MP to LP im comfortable in my raise even if there is a couple limpers in. in that situation im also wary of a strong limper, but most players cant avoid reraising with AA, KK or QQ so i pretty much will have a good idea where im at preflop. i then have to deduce whether im up against the big pairs or big overcards. thats a tough read, but id rather that than no clue at all.

without the raise i have no idea what the other players have, not to overlook the fact that the blinds can have anything and flop any two random pair and i can be pretty much drawing dead and not know it. flop comes 9 6 2 what do i do if i didnt raise and the big blind comes out firing? i am forced to reraise, then either he reraises representing a set or he smooth calls representing a draw but still possibly hiding a set, and then i dont know if its a trap or hes on a draw or a bluff. tough read for me to make, being comparably inexperienced to the better players in this forum, so i got to raise. they are just plain old tricky to play, and only with experience and instinct will i (or anyone else) get better at playing them.

I think JJ TT are really good against 1 or 2 callers or 6 to 7. you are either looking to have them hold up, or get a set. But I am no expert.