Hi, i am fairly new to playing texas hold'em with my friends and i have been wondering when is a good time to bluff and when its not to?? Can you bluff when u absolutly have nothing on the flop or on the turn card?
Printable View
Hi, i am fairly new to playing texas hold'em with my friends and i have been wondering when is a good time to bluff and when its not to?? Can you bluff when u absolutly have nothing on the flop or on the turn card?
It's a very big and fishy misconception that poker is all about bluffing.
It's just too difficult to explain when you can and cannot bluff. Basically, as you develope your ABC skills at poker, you will begin to recognize the types of players that you can bluff at depending on the type board and depending on the type of game and depending on the...
Basically, the answer is (It depends) ^ some power. There are just too many nuances to poker to explain it in one post. After you play a straight forward style of thinking "my hand is good" or "my hand is bad" you will realize when your hand is bad but there hand is bad too and betting at them will win you the pot, or his hand is good but he can't call with that scare card on that board...
On and on I go...
-'rilla
Welcome to the forum.
There are a lot of What If's in this game. There are too many variables to include in any one post on the subject of bluffing.
The bottom line is going to be something like... sure bluff any time you like. But always be prepared to lose that money when someone calls your bluff. However I think most people will tell you that you shouldnt worry about bluffing untill you know a LOT about the game and about the people you are playing with.
In fact, if you can talk some friends into it. I reccomend you play a tournament style game. Have everyone chip in something cheap like $5, and play the entire tourney with all cards face up. There will be absolutely no bluffing, and the whole game will be about learning when its worth gambling your money on a hand.
I promise you it will be a lot more interesting than you might think.. I know it helped my game a lot.
Good Luck
The above posts are correct; this is an extremely complex aspect of poker strategy, not a poker "move" that you memorize and throw in when appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaLMartCustomer
That said, I think you'd like some kinda concrete starting points:
-Yes, you can go in with nothing. Nada. Zip. You must, however, be pretty sure of getting a fold. You want to have two ways to win:
1) opp folds
2) opp calls and loses, because you have him beat or end up beating him
When you're stone-cold bluffing with Zip you can't win by #2
-Bluffing from later positions is better -- you usually want to do it in response to weakness (multiple limps/checks). Oddly, bluffing from last position (the button) is not ideal, because a lot of players see this coming.
-Don't bluff at someone who calls all the time, someone who is tilting/angry, or someone who is (in a nutshell) unpredictable at the moment for any reason.
-Bluffing "scare cards" is a pretty good way to get your feet wet. Third flush card, seven on the board to go with an 8 & 9, and when the board pairs something other than its highest card.
If you have more questions, I'll add more points.
to sum up bluffing in one sentence.
don't bluff the unbluffable.
basically that means don't bluff into calling stations. don't bluff into maniacs. basically the only people you can bluff are the tight players who can make big laydowns. pick these people out on the table and bluff when the time is right.
thanks for your tips :D
and whats a limp?
Just calling the big blind preflop (not raising)
And now I will allow for 3 jokes about the above post. But only 3!
-'rilla
when taking tips, its usually not limpQuote:
Originally Posted by WaLMartCustomer
1 down, 2 to go :D
Bluff big and often. Semi-bluff with impunity.
when you semi bluff and don't get the card you were hoping for, do you usually just fold or (assuming he doesn't bet) call on the river? What factors must be taken into account to make the decision?
Again, this is just a rule of thumb to get you started:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel
Bet until you get raised. If you're being called, there's a good chance opp is chasing, which you love. Because 2/3 of the time he'll bust what he was chasing and your river bet will suffice to fold him.
Intermediate rule of thumb: do this at least on the turn. On the river, you may have sensed that opp is going to call -- might be on mid pair or something. When that's the case you have to bet Really Big or Not at All.
Reasoning: If you check here, and opp is afraid of getting check-raised, he'll check and you can save some $. If you check and opp bets, you need a read on him. Most of the time a bet on the river, from someone who's just been calling, will mean they have pretty good cards and only a Huge bet will fold him.
When you semi-bluff you're hoping for a fold, not a card. You want to take the pot down. Your "out" to win if called is not what you're playing. You're not playing cards. Play the player.Quote:
when you semi bluff and don't get the card you were hoping for ...
Don't bluff weak players, that's the best thing to get through your head first.
Here's an example:
Played in a game with a bunch of the guys at work last night during the Christmas party. Had two tables going and me and two other guys regularly end up top three going against each other.
So 1) I have table image which I use and abuse when I'm in late position
and 2) Most of the guys are loose and passive and I play tight but very aggressive.
Anyway, had this new guy, an intern sitting to my left that called me down on every single hand whether I had it or not. He called a monster AA raise and got busted bad and then called the same monster TT raise 5 hands later. Post flop I was betting exactly the same with TT as I was with the AA and there was a potential flush, a straight and a full house on the board. There was one overcard on the board to my TT, a king.
Pure and simply with that board I'm dropping my hand to any aggression if I'm in his position, but he kept calling these monster bets, ends up he had k 5 os with several dozen combination of hands that could have beat him. Top pair garbage kicker. He had no outs for the straight and no outs for the flush by the turn.
Stupid players will call with garbage that a smart player would know to get the hell out of dodge, any player with brain one in their head would never have called any even slight raise with k 5 os preflop.
Word of warning: Be careful that your semi-bluff isnt too small compared to the pot size. Good example is when flop comes with 2 of one suit and it gives you a four flush. In order for the semi bluff to work here you must represent a made hand and not the flush draw. Betting anything less than 3/4 of the pot size is just asking for an aggressive player to raise big over the top of you. This will cost you more money overall to see the turn than if you just checked! Even worse, if this player can reasonably put you on the flush draw he may attempt to steal the pot from you on later streets even if he has nothing.
Bluffing is no more complex than Lying to your Mother, Girlfriend, Wife, Co-worker, or Best Friend!Quote:
Originally Posted by WaLMartCustomer
Oops don’t forget Grandma.
With enough experience,
you just learn to recognize a “sense” in which presents the most opportune time to get away with it.
When you know it’s safe to look’em straight in the eye and say,
“I didn’t do it”
“It wasn’t me”,
and you know damn well they gonna buy it.
Therefore obviously you got establish a sense of Trust!
I commonly refer to it as “Table Presence”.
First thing on my mind when I sit down at the table!
“You got to believe me”
Very first thing.
I never allow the table to view me KILLING a good starting hand.
NEVER!
I’d rather gnaw my right arm off instead.
Believe me??
Did I mention I never bluff?
I’m the most HONEST poker player in this here Forum!
Bar none!
I don’t have a lying bone in my body.
Honesty is the best policy by GAWD!
If you ever get a chance just ask my Mother, Girlfriend, Wife, Co-worker, or Best Friend!
Dang it, and Grandma too!
It's true. I'm his grandmother and TDM has never lied to me.
-'rilla
Championship Poker at the Plaza
Televised on Fox Sports Net
Commentators:
Howard Lederer
Poker Professional
Chris Rose
host of BEST DAMN SPORTS SHOW PERIOD
Michael Konik
Poker Expert, Author of Telling Lies & Getting Paid
****NOTE*****
One of the reasons I am posting this is because of this guy and his book.
I never read his book and I don’t know much about him except exposure through FSN regular coverage of Texas Hold’em.
He is generally a regular commentator for them.
I researched some on the net while compiling this and I might have unknowingly read articles written by him in assorted Poker related publications.
Other than that, I don’t know him from Adam.
Until this episode never paid any attention to him.
Championship Poker at the Plaza
Plaza Hotel & Casino Las Vegas Nevada
$10,000 Buy-in
Started with 68 Players
$310,000 First Place Prize
$156,000 Second
$80,000 third
Because of the Blind structure and the tables were 6 seat from the middle of tourney on, the Tournament was tabbed as the
"Most skill-oriented TV tournament structure in history"
Final Table
Heads up play between Kassem "Freddy" Deeb & Daniel Negreanu
I present this to you for not only of the play, but what was said during these hands.
Normally I watch Poker on TV with mute engaged, stereo on in the background.
Sorta the same way I did when I watched Bay Watch.
Dialog for these things generally frustrates the hell out me.
Commentators in my opinion usually over analyze the situation.
Commenting on the obvious and oblivious to the nuances.
For example in this tournament, I believe both Deeb and Negreanu were getting tired and therefore reckless in their body language.
Deeb whenever he was dealt a decent hand or Hit on the board, he would take long pauses and mainly concentrate (stare) on his opponent and dependent on where he placed his hands, he had the nut.
Whenever Negreanu did the same thing, he was either constantly flashing many glances to the dealer or to the audience. I couldn't tell which it was from the angle shown on the TV, but every time he got a hand he was shooting glances in the same direction, like a nervous tick or something.
Deeb hand placement and Negreanu eye placement were my reads.
None of the commentators said anything about reads!
Oh well.
Ante: $200
Blinds: $800 / $1,600
(Final Table Amounts!!! Can you believe that?)
In about the eighth hand of heads up play the following occurred:
Deeb Kc 7c on button
Negreanu 7d 7s
Deeb raises from the button $6000
Negreanu re-raises to $20,000
After a long deliberation with himself, Deeb folds
DEEB: "Was that a bluff or will I have to wait to see it?
NEGREANU: "No bluff."
DEEB: "Ok"
NEGREANU: "All paired up"
DEEB: "Hmmm that's good."
DEEB: "You don't have to answer either"
NEGREANU: "I know I understand"
NEGREANU: "I don't hafta to be telling the truth either"
DEEB: "But I believe you anyway"
NEGREANU: "Its true that time."
NEGREANU: "That time!"
Chris Rose goes into a FSN self-Promo for the Imax show then,
ROSE: "I want to get back to the point that Daniel Negreanu was making,
He said he was " telling the truth that time",,, "
KONIK: "That's the beautiful thing about poker Chris, the more accomplished you are at lying the more you get paid"
I at first thought that was lame lead in by Chris, but was content Michael Konik didn’t go into a diatribe about the theme of his book.
It did alert me that he must be an expert on detecting Bluffs then.
Right?
Seems reasonable, if you write about it, you SHOULD be on the lookout for it,
Correct?
Three Hands later:==================================
Chip Count
Deeb $342,300
Negreanu $337,700
ROSE: "We are back in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada, for more Championship Poker at the Plaza on Fox Sports Net. We have heads-up action and you can not ask for a better match between Freddy Deeb and Daniel Negreanu."
NEGREANU to DEEB: "Hope you didn't make any dinner plans"
DEEB: "Dinner Plans?!"
NEGREANU: "Hope,,,, I mean if, you gonna make dinner plans gonna be about midnight."
DEEB: "No, I got no dinner plans"
NEGREANU: "We'll be here a while"
DEEB: "I got no plans to eat tonight, just drink"
Both the players and the commentators laugh.
Deeb Big Blind and is dealt As Kd.
Negreanu Small Blind & Button and is dealt Ah 7d.
Negreanu examines cards and contently, routinely calls.
ROSE: "Daniel Negreanu is going to limp in here with Ace Seven."
Deeb after a slight pause of stroking a stack of chips
DEEB: "Seven more "
ROSE: "He raises it seven thousand, Big Slick"
LEDERER: "I think these guys will realize this thing will NEVER end if they don't raise before the flop with their good hands"
Negreanu looking as though he is going to whistle calmly pulls the amount needed from the stack, then nervous tick like flashes eyes to dealer a couple of times after dropping them into pot.
ROSE: "Well Daniel is going to call it"
ROSE: "And on the Flop,,,"
FLOP Ks 6h 2h
Deebs As Kd
Negreanu Ah 7d
ROSE: "Well Freddy flops Kings here"
LEDERER: "It's a great flop for Freddy, I don't know how he gets action."
KONIK: "Small bet perhaps?"
Deeb stroking longer than the flop duration glances at cards then Daniel and then bets
DEEB: "16"
ROSE: "Well he bets 16"
KONIK: "That's about the size of the pot"
LEDERER: "Actually a big bet"
KONIK: "Yeah, about the size of the pot."
LEDERER: "He is continuing to fast play when he flops big hands."
LEDERER: "But, Daniel doesn't have anything to call him with."
Negreanu quickly reexamines his cards showing obvious contemplation with face on his right hand blinking heavily.
Negreanu is taking a long time here.
ROSE: "Is he really agonizing over this call?"
LEDERER: "I don't know what he is thinking about."
KONIK: "I, I cant imagine that he would call actually."
LEDERER: "He, He could be thinking about raising."
NEGREANU: "Call"
Tournament Director: "Call"
ROSE: "Now he is going to call it"
LEDERER: "WOW he,
well he is not calling for value
he is definitely calling to try and take this pot away from Freddy."
KONIK: "On this next card"
Both Konik & Lederer: "Yeah"
ROSE: "Which is a four of spades."
TURN Ks 6h 2h 4s
Deeb As Kd to act
Negreanu Ah 7d
Deeb stroking now a shorter stack of chips contemplates shorter time than both pre-flop and flop.
KONIK: "I mean maybe Daniel was hoping for another heart to hit and then he could represent a flush?"
KONIK: "I, I don't understand, umph, Freddy checks!"
Negreanu with face still in right hand contemplates very little almost automatically but calmly bets.
LEDERER: "Well here he is, looks like yep, he is going try to take it away."
ROSE: "He bets thirty thousand even though there is not a card out there that could help him."
Deeb still fondling an even smaller same stack of chips reexamines cards then returns to fondling and resting his head in his left hand.
Takes a long time
KONIK: "Ok!, it is time now for Freddy to put the hammer down and take this pot back and away from Daniel."
ROSE: "And how does he do that?"
KONIK: "How about a nice hundred thousand dollar raise right here?"
LEDERER: "He could you know, or he could just continue to, huh, slow-play, he, he, checked it and he successfully got action here"
LEDERER: "I don't hate calling here, if he calls, but you know, the, the, uh, standard play would be to raise."
LEDERER: "At least sixty or seventy thousand."
ROSE: "Freddy calls it"
LEDERER: "This is a nice play."
LEDERER: "He might be betting to trap Daniel, for even more money on the river."
KONIK: "Daniel can not win!"
ROSE: "It is a four of hearts."
RIVER Ks 6h 2h 4s 4h
Deeb As Kd to act
Negreanu Ah 7d
KONIK: "Hmmm that's a tough card for Freddy."
KONIK: "There's so much fear in that card huh Howard I think he has to check here."
LEDERER: "Well yeah actually Michael I agree with you because every legitimate drawing hand that Daniel could of had on the flop has gotten there and now beats Freddy hand.
If he had a four five, a three four, a five three for a heart draw he now has Freddy beat."
LEDERER: "I really think that Freddy needs to check this and hopes that Daniel bluffs."
ROSE: "Well he is not, he is betting sixty five thousand."
LEDERER: "Well, I really don't like that bet."
KONIK: "I don't either, I agree with you completely Howard."
Negreanu begins his turn taking a considerable amount of time, blinking heavily, but not at dealer or audience, but mainly at board cards and at times Freddy from under the brim of his baseball hat.
KONIK: "We here know,
that,
he's got the winner
he doesn't know that,
if Daniel shows a lot of strength here,
boy its going to be a tough decision for Freddy."
LEDERER: "Yeah I just don't see how he (Daniel) could do it, he is going to be putting his entire tournament on the line."
LEDERER: "He is basically going to have to move all his chips in the pot to win this."
KONIK: "Because he doesn't know that Freddy hasn't made a flush."
LEDERER: "This is a tough situation I'd, I'd, just think he has to fold, go on to the next hand."
"He still has plenty of chips."
"Almost three hundred thousand left."
More time passes.
LEDERER: "Agonizing"
More time.
LEDERER: "This is our first big pot of the heads-up session."
KONIK: "One small thing he has going for him,,"
NEGREANU: "Raise"
KONIK: "Oh my goodness!"
ROSE: "Guys Daniel Negreanu has raised one hundred thousand."
LEDERER: "Well actually the key thing is he has ONLY raised a hundred thousand."
KONIK: "Excellent point Howard that that's gotta just make Freddy Deeb's spine tingle because that's an amount that looks like he wants to get called."
LEDERER: "Well what we actually saw in an earlier show on this tournament where Layne Flack successfully bluffed an admittedly much smaller pot but with the same kind of small raise, he raised about a thousand dollars into a five thousand dollar pot."
LEDERER: "And you know Freddy said during that hand "I wish you had raised more because you only raised a thousand you must have it" and he folded."
LEDERER: "And Daniel was at the table when that happened"
KONIK: "Yep"
LEDERER: "I think he might be using the experience he gained on the first day of this tournament to maybe win a pot."
KONIK: "If Daniel had merely pushed all his chips in and said All-In, ironically this might be an easier decision for Freddy Deeb."
KONIK: "This hundred thousand dollar raise, is, really brutal."
DEEB: "You musta flubbed a set huh?
DEEB: "All right good hand."
Freddy mucks his cards.
KONIK: "Oh he is folding!"
NEGREANU: "If I show a bluff, is that good for the game?"
Looks as though he had directed that to the Dealer
NEGREANU: "All right, then that must be good for the game then!"
Throws his hand face up.
Anonymous Audience member: "JERK"
NEGREANU: "Let's get it on, let's get it on!",
"Wow, Great"
DEEB: "Good bluff"
NEGREANU: "Whew for a second I thought he was coming."
Again it looks as though he had directed that to the Dealer
DEEB: "Huh?"
NEGREANU: "For a second I thought you were calling."
DEEB: "I mean you called the flop,,,good bluff"
NEGREANU: "Thanks"
DEEB: "Got beat nuthin, everything come."
NEGREANU: "What did you have, a King?
DEEB: "I got Ace King"
DEEB: "The hearts come, the straights started come."
NEGREANU: "I had the Ace of hearts, I had like a fake flush."
DEEB: "It's all right"
DEEB: "Good play "
NEGREANU: "Thank you sir"
ROSE: "Well this is how good a play it was,,,"
"Daniel Negreanu has now leapt over Freddy Deeb in more than four hundred fifty thousand in chips"
"Boy Daniel,,, bluffs his way to a pot here"
"He was sweating it out for a while"
"Freddy Deeb, nothing but bitter disappointment on that one"
"We'll see if he can get back, right after this."
========
Next hand as we know it, this is right after the commercial break, but the dealer is looking as though he just dealt a hand and was cleaning it up:
ROSE: "Howard we just saw Daniel Negreanu take one from Freddy Deeb with a bluff.
How long is that going to hurt Freddy?"
LEDERER: "You know, this, he will feel this hand until he wins the tournament or he is knocked out
He is going to feel this hand for maybe months to come"
KONIK: "Yeah, this is the kinda hand where you lay awake at night starring at the ceiling thinking what if.
You know, he can come up with a lot of rationalizations how he might of played it differently, he could of played it differently, in the end I think he knows that he made a blunder."
It’s obvious Freddy was disturbed by that bluff hand, and what I believe working on getting it out of his head.
Negreanu 9h 7s
Deeb 8d 7h
Negreanu on the button and just calls the blind
6c 6h 3s
Both check the flop
2s
Both check the river
9d
Deeb checks, Negreanu bets $4000
Deeb folds
Negreanu shows Deeb that he paired high card nine and says
"No more bluffing for me a while"
DEEB: "That's all right"
"You can bluff all you want"
ROSE: "There you go Howard you talked about it its still in his head."
LEDERER: "Well after the big bluff he just acted the ABC's of poker."
DEEB: "We play that hand again the same way,
Exactly the same way,,,,"
DEEB: "And those cards come, you still going to win it."
NEGREANU: "9 out of 10 times I would have you."
DEEB: "I SAID you still gonna win it!"
NEGREANU: "If I didn't have the ace of hearts I couldn't make it."
DEEB: "I said you still going to win it!"
DEEB: "We can play it again ten times today, I'm still, I'm still going to lay it down at the end if you raise me."
KONIK: "We are seeing a man wrestling with his demons."
DEEB: "You made that play you deserve it."
NEGREANU: "Thank you sir"
Negreanu Qh Jc
Deeb Ad 6c
Deeb button raises Blind to $6,000
Negreanu Calls
Flop Js 5s 8h
Chris Rose claims that Deeb paired sixes but the TV bug shows us no pairs.
We do not actually see the board.
Negreanu Bets $12,000
Deeb quickly folds.
Negreanu Holds up the Jc and says
" No more bluffing for a while "
DEEB: "Does that mean it's my turn to bluff?"
NEGREANU: "Yeah I think so!"
And Laughs out loud.
DEEB: "Show you a bigger bluff than that one."
NEGREANU: "I'm sure its coming, I know it is."
NEGREANU: "If I know Freddy, I know,,,, "
DEEB: "I never bluff!"
NEGREANU: "Yeah"
DEEB: "Never!"
NEGREANU: "If I know Freddy he has got one up his sleeve."
NEGREANU: "Somewhere"
The TV bug shows us
Negreanu 7h 6s
Deeb As Th
Deeb on the button doesn't call blind and folds
(I think the bug was wrong and he was holding the 76 cant imagine him folding AT)
Rose says he just going to throw those away in a matter of fact manner as though he was dealt 76 too.
DEEB: "Is it hot in here or just me?"
Both the players and the commentators laugh with Negreanu laughing the loudest.
LEDERER: "You know for those of you who haven't played poker at home when you lose a pot like that, you literality get hot inside.
The steam just starts coming out of your ears."
The show ends, continued for next week show.
I felt empathy for Freddy right after that bluff hand.
I had Negreanu in that one!
From the table seat I had in my living room and Lazy-Boy I noticed that Negreanu eyes weren’t behaving with the same mannerisms as prior hands.
If I were Freddy, I hoped that I would have noticed that during and right after that $100,000 bet. Negreanu wasn’t casting eyes anywhere but the board and me when he thought I wasn’t looking. I hope given the same situation I would have caught that and said “He aint got it!”.
My only dilemma would have been to call or raise.
Greed would have told me to raise, Ego would have told to call, with the purpose of forcing him to show it. I would have opted for the Ego side in this instance.
Here:
Stage #66633162: Holdem No Limit $0.25 [2004-12-23 01:27:04]
Seat 1 - P1 $24.40 in chips
Seat 4 - P2 $41.60 in chips
Seat 6 - TELEPATH $93.05 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 6] ***
P1 - Post small blind $0.25
P2 - Post big blind $0.50
TELEPATH - Pocket [Ks,Qh]
TELEPATH - Raises $0.50 to $3.50
P1 - Calls $3.25
P2 - Calls $3
*** FLOP [7h,6h,9s] ***
P1 - Checks
P2 - Checks
TELEPATH - Bets $4.50
P1 - Folds
P2 - Calls $4.50
*** TURN [7h,6h,9s,8s] ***
P2 - Checks
TELEPATH - Bets $7.50
CADILLACBOB - Calls $7.50
*** RIVER [7h,6h,9s,8s,5d] ***
P2 - Checks
TELEPATH - Bets $10
P2 - Folds
TELEPATH - returned ($10) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TELEPATH - Does not show
*** RESULT ***
Total Pot($34.50) Rake ($1)
Board [7h,6h,9s,8s,5d]
P1 - Folded on the FLOP
P2 - Folded on the RIVER
TELEPATH - Total ($33.50) HI:($33.50) [Does not show]
P1 is tight aggressive. Will most times call preflop raises, though, and seems to always bet stiff on flop if no-one else does.
P2 is tight weak.
I get good preflop hand and raise for value. Flop misses completely, but chances are, no-one else has anything worthwhile at this stage anyway. So, I come out guns blazing on flop. P1 folds. P2 calls.
It is obvious that P2 is hunting for either a straight or a flush draw as the betting progresses. Since he merely checks and calls, I figure by the turn, when he does not checkraise me it is no straight, and by the river, when another heart has failed to turn up, he has missed the flush. So I put in a fairly stiff 10 dollars, knowing full well that he probably has me beat but have to be afraid for pocket rockets or the like, and so, he folds.
Is this an agreeable way of play?
Isn't it amazing how much easier tells are to spot when you aren't actually involved in the hand?
That’s pretty much a Revealing statement!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
You find it’s easier from the Perch do ya!
AMAZING!
Good Luck with that.
It wasn’t so much a bluff as it was pure domination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telepath
Took advantage of inexperienced player it looks to me.
Granted you didn’t have chit,
But if he would have re-raised on that Turn,
There’s where the bluff would have come in!
I’d be interested to see how you would have reacted to that.
From your betting, it indicated you had high cards, not the straight.
Not to suck money out of him as so much to prevent him from proceeding.
I would have called your a$$
I’m betting you wouldn’t have the TEN and we sharing this pot.
Damn Straight!
I’d also be thinking when I called I hope Telepath has trips!
Pair of Aces.
Certainly if I made it to the River, I’m betting you aint got that TEN.