LOW POCKET PAIRS...

so tempting to play... and yet so dangerous.

In a tournament, an all in with one of these babies can result in a 50/50, and a good double up since the blinds are upped so quickly. However, in a cash game, I DONT WANT TO RISK MY MONEY ON 50/50's (unless i am committed in some way).

Now low pocket pairs... how do i play them?

Everything from 22 to TT is so hard for me to play. Do I raise or just call? I usually just call in late position and hope that I hit a set, or btab at the pot when it is checked to me or if my opponents show weakness in some way. If you don't make your set and overcards hit, what do u do?

Again, I'm playing at low stakes NL .05/.10 blinds, so I get many callers and one of them is guarenteed to have me beat! I'm just folding them now. Sometimes when I raise 5x BB (with 1010) , I still get 3 callers, and I'm afraid to bet cuz it has led to nasty situations before.

These pairs just lose me money, someone please help!

Low pairs are the one of the easiest starting hands to play in low-stakes calling station games. Limp preflop(or call a small raise(2x big blind). Postflop; no set, no bet. Don't try anything fancy and they will be long term winners for you.

even pocket 10's?

and my AA just lost to AK all in preflop. REALLY MAD RIGHT NOW :(

In full NL ring, I will limp from early position with any small PP and if it is raised behind, call a reasonable raise. It helps you not be too predictable to stick around and call some raises with low PP's. If you hit your set play it from there, if you don't and there is any action, get out.

Late position, raise or limp just to further mix up your play. You are still looking for a set.

Middle pairs like 88 through 1010 are a little different. If you have a read on an opponent and figure him for pushing big with any big A like AQ or AJ, I would come over the top of him possibly AI. Gamble it up a little. At micro limits you need to gamble it up a little so your big hands will get paid off. Think about it, you come blasting over the top with what you presume to be a sleight edge and he calls. Ooops he flopped the A and you lose...good. Next time you have AA or KK and you blast over the top of him, you get called and bust him. But you only want to do this when it's heads up to give your pair a better chance of being the best hand.

If you have a mid PP and it is a baby flop, bet pot or even overbet pot to take it down on the flop with your overpair. In that situation the only thing you have to fear is a big overpair like AA-JJ or a baby set. You will likely get called by anyone who hit the baby pair with a big kicker and if you are lucky someone with 2 overs who will be taking the worst of it by making a call in that situation because you bet or overbet the pot.

To summarize, in ring games you don't want to go nuts with a pocket pair but you are almost always looking to take a flop with them even for a big raise. If you miss your set it is extreemly easy to toss it.

You also have great implied odds. Say UTG (ultra tight) comes in for a 5xBB raise. You are almost certain that is an AA, AK, KK QQ hand. You are in middle/late position with 33. I call every time. If you hit that baby set, you are almost certain to bust UTG's big pair and take his whole stack.

In tournaments, you play PP's the same way you would in a ring game assuming that you have a healthy stack. They also make for a reasonable blind stealing hand at higher rounds. The only time you get cute with PP's is when you are on the short stack and need to make a move. I'll take a 50% chance to dobule up when you are faced with gettig blinded out in the near future.

pocket pairs hit a set 1/7.5 (13.333%) on the flop.

so let's say i call with pocket pairs 22-77 for 10-20 cents, and with 88-TT I will raise occasionally.

7.5 x 15 = 112.5 cents

I will be calling and folding $1.12.5 before I flop a set and there is no guarentee that anyone will call me or have a monster when I do flop one. Yes, once in awhile, I'll run into someone with a monster and take a huge chunk of his stack, but normally when I hit a set, people will fold to my raises.



Occasionally, I'll flop a set and they'll have a higher one.

Not to mention the amount of times I'll fold when I call with 66 and get raised 4x BB.

Overall, is this even worth it?

Yes. Pocket pairs are a $money$ hand. If you don't play them, what are you going to play? Any 2 suited and pray to flop 3 to a flush-you won't get any action there either. Connectors and one gappers for a crappy pair and the hope of a str8?

I make the most money at NL ring games with pocket pairs, especially the little ones. And yes, it is not uncommon to run into a higher set on occasion and go bust, but that's poker.

why are you mad that your AA lost to AK? You found someone to give you 5-1 on your money. Dont worry about the results, just worry about making the right plays.

Pocket pairs are definately my favorite to play. I think small pp's are easy to play since it's not very hard to fold them if you miss your set. If you hit your set, chances are there's someone who will call your bets because they hit top pair or an even better payoff, two pair. My only problem is JJ, I hate that hand.

Small Pocket pairs r the shiznit. If you call a small preflop raise with say 44, and the flop is like A84 and the raiser bets it, you can peg him on the ace usually. These hands end up paying off big (slowplay, check raise oppurtunity), especially since many think TPTK is the nuts or something. Granted you won't hit your set all the time, but it is easier to get out of the hand than it is to leave the hand with a large poket pair. It is much harder to lay down AA, especially when that mofo called ur 5 dollar raise preflop with 56 and flopped two pair. Kinda hard to let the rockets go, on a board with 56K rainbow... Trust me.

Also it is much harder to read small pocket pairs, I myself seem to never look for them :roll: . I had KK today and raised 3 dollars preflop got one caller, flop came 45J (2 clubs), he checked it and I put my remaning 15 dollars in. He called that bet faster than a deaf kid gets out in musical chairs, I put him on a flush draw or AA, turn comes 4(club), river was a 7. He flipped over 44, and raped my kings with quads :shock: . I personally would not call a 3 dollar raise pre- flop with 44(maybe maniacs), but he got me, I had NO idea!

But the paying of part I cannot emphasize enough that they do pay off. There is many a time when you get a full house with your LPP, your opponet has three of a kind because the board has paired(togh to let go). Or your opponet has two pair, you have three of a kind situation.

I LOVE LPP! They love you too :twisted: !

yes, so let's say we up the stakes... calling $3 with 44. (I'm not sure what stakes you're playing with only $15, maybe .25/.50 with min buy in.) So you have 13.33% chance of hitting a set on the flop, meaning you must call 7.5 times in order to hit a set.

$7.5 x 3 = $22.5, and when you hit, you can put them all in for more than that?

I hate playing them because it shows weakness when you just fold right after missing the flop. There are almost always overcards, and you can't really bet aggressively, knowing you have the best hand. If they call, what are you going to do? Bluffing or semi-bluffing is expensive, and I do not recommend it. Also, there is no guarentee that they will move all in.

I play limit holdem......

8's and under I don't even play from early or middle position. I'll limp from late position and won't call a raise from any position. 9's and 10's I'll limp from middle or late position. 9's I'll throw away for a raise and I'll call with 10's from any position. If I miss the flop and there are overs, facing a bet I'll fold. If there are unders I reraise.

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Originally Posted by Les_'worm'

I play limit holdem......

8's and under I don't even play from early or middle position. I'll limp from late position and won't call a raise from any position. 9's and 10's I'll limp from middle or late position. 9's I'll throw away for a raise and I'll call with 10's from any position. If I miss the flop and there are overs, facing a bet I'll fold. If there are unders I reraise.

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But you sure like those suited Aces at the FTR table and were raising more than your fair share...

66+ any position at most tables. Raise/call depends on the texture.

TT is often a 3-bet.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

But you sure like those suited Aces at the FTR table and were raising more than your fair share...

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That was just fun at the .5/1 tables. I was just being Laggy. I'm actually more of a TAg player. I was just at that table to shoot shit with you guys and have a good time. I wasn't really looking to make any money.

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Originally Posted by Invizard

even pocket 10's?

and my AA just lost to AK all in preflop. REALLY MAD RIGHT NOW :(

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Sucks to be gorilla

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Originally Posted by Invizard

yes, so let's say we up the stakes... calling $3 with 44. (I'm not sure what stakes you're playing with only $15, maybe .25/.50 with min buy in.) So you have 13.33% chance of hitting a set on the flop, meaning you must call 7.5 times in order to hit a set.

$7.5 x 3 = $22.5, and when you hit, you can put them all in for more than that?

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I'm not sure where you got the 13.33% chance from. Here's the calculation for hitting a set on the flop. You have seen 2 cards of 52. You have 2 outs. So we find the probability of *not* hitting a set and subtract that from 1.

1 - (48/50 * 47/49 * 46/48) = 11.76%

1 / 11.76% = about 8.5

So you need to win more than 8.5x what you call pre-flop when relying on a set to win. (I think, correct me if I am wrong here.)

8.5 * $3 = $25.50, which sounds like a little too much, given a $25 max buy in, if we are talking about the $25 NL PartyPoker tables.

8.5 * $2 = $17 seems much easier to do.

So you should probably decide whether to make these calls based on the stack size of the pre-flop raiser. If he has you covered, then it should be based on the size of your own stack.

Here's why I love small-mid pocket pairs:

I have 88 in the hole on the button. There are several limpers, including me. The flop comes 789. It's checked around to me and I bet the pot, getting 2 callers. The turn is a 9, giving me 8s full of 9s. It's checked to me again and I check. The river is a J. The 2 players in front of me each go all in. I call. One player has 10-7, the other has Q-10.

Hands don't get much better than that. :D

What are the numbers for 4-straights?

I wonder if this would affect how much ground you need to catch up post flop.

-'rilla

Best case, with 10-10 through 5-5, you hit a straight 0.56% of the time.

With J-J and 4-4, 0.44%; with Q-Q and 3-3, 0.33%; and with A-A, K-K, and 2-2, 0.22%. Not very good odds.

Here's my math (please check this, if you like).

For pocket pair XX, where X is between 10 and 5, inclusive:

You can make the following straights:

X, X+1, X+2, X+3, X+4 (e.g. 10-J-Q-K-A or 5-6-7-8-9)
X-1, X, X+1, X+2, X+3
X-2, X-1, X, X+1, X+2
X-3, X-2, X-1, X, X+1
X-4, X-3, X-2, X-1, X (e.g. 6-7-8-9-10 or A-2-3-4-5)

So, there are 5 ways that are equally probable.

The probability of making any single one of these is:

16 / 50 * 12 / 49 * 8 / 48 * 4 / 47 = 0.11%

So the probability of making any of them is:

16 / 50 * 12 / 49 * 8 / 48 * 4 / 47 * 5 = 0.56%

Since there are fewer straights to be made for pocket pairs outside of 10-10 through 5-5, the odds go down for those.

I hope this answered your question.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Les_'worm'

I play limit holdem......

8's and under I don't even play from early or middle position. I'll limp from late position and won't call a raise from any position. 9's and 10's I'll limp from middle or late position. 9's I'll throw away for a raise and I'll call with 10's from any position. If I miss the flop and there are overs, facing a bet I'll fold. If there are unders I reraise.

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But you sure like those suited Aces at the FTR table and were raising more than your fair share...

66+ any position at most tables. Raise/call depends on the texture.

TT is often a 3-bet.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. More loose-passive the table, the smaller the pair up front, too. I will sometimes 3-bet with 99, especially in the CO or Button.

Les, you can't be so results oriented. If you've got TT, and someone with A6 calls, and someone with 77 calls, you're a 55-35-10 favorite, meaning whatever money goes into the pot at that point, you'll get 55% of it. You already made money. If the flop comes something like KQ6, and you bet and both of them call you, they've got a total of 7 cards in the deck that can help at that point. So you're getting 2-1 on your money when you're about an 80% favorite after the flop. Don't you want to get as much $ into the pot as you can?

Don't be afraid of the small pairs, embrace them instead and see how that works out.

I like the small pp's too. Most of the time, I only play the following hands: Any pocket pair if I could limp (I´m not sure this is correct considering the lowest pairs, but hey I like them), AK, KQ, AJ, A10s. KJ and QJ if no raise. Any suited ace if the circumstances are right (no raise, good position).
Pp's have great potential. I like to slowplay them a bit, sometimes calling cold on the flop after a while of "thinking", and then raise the bets on the turn and river. I know that if that 500 lb gorilla would read this, he´d immediately throw me into a river or something, cause he likes to play'em fast (actually, I think he has had som kind of trauma, losing a lot of money while slowplaying what he thought would be the nuts and now he hates slowplaying more than anything else). I think it depends on the level of playing. I play micro blinds (0.05-0.10) with only a couple of dollars in my stack, and if I could double up I am satisfied. Often that is possible with a set, if the raises are already high, an AI may just mean a dollar or two and is likely to be called.

Pp's are gold when you hit the set.

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Originally Posted by Zangief

So you should probably decide whether to make these calls based on the stack size of the pre-flop raiser. If he has you covered, then it should be based on the size of your own stack.

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This guy said the right thing and is the winner of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Les_'worm'

I play limit holdem......

8's and under I don't even play from early or middle position. I'll limp from late position and won't call a raise from any position. 9's and 10's I'll limp from middle or late position. 9's I'll throw away for a raise and I'll call with 10's from any position. If I miss the flop and there are overs, facing a bet I'll fold. If there are unders I reraise.

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DAAAAAAMMMNNNN, you're tight.

Raise that $hit.

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Originally Posted by Zangief

So you need to win more than 8.5x what you call pre-flop when relying on a set to win. (I think, correct me if I am wrong here.)

8.5 * $3 = $25.50, which sounds like a little too much, given a $25 max buy in, if we are talking about the $25 NL PartyPoker tables.

8.5 * $2 = $17 seems much easier to do.

So you should probably decide whether to make these calls based on the stack size of the pre-flop raiser. If he has you covered, then it should be based on the size of your own stack.

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Holy crap. You are so right. I believe there is a post on FTR that I read at one point that said something like:

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Holding pocket pairs, call preflop raises if your opponent has at least 8 times the raise.

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I've been working with this strategy and it has been somewhat successful thus far, but I felt that often I was throwing too much money in the pot preflop when it is only going to hit 12% of the time. I think I need to modify my strat with pocket pairs. Thanks a lot Zangief!

Also there's got to be some flexibility to the strategy too, because if you hold TT or 99, there's a decent chance you will be holding an overpair on the flop, which is not worth automatically mucking just because you didnt hit a set. So maybe the higher your pair, the raise you can call gets slightly bigger due to the added value of having an overpair.

I treat TT like AKs, so raise them up.

22-99 I usually try to limp in any position, calling up to 3x the bb, maybe more if there are alot of callers, giving you better pot odds with your small pp.

On the flop, throw your hand away if there is aggression. With a hand like 99 on a flop of 58T, you might be still good so don't automatically assume a player has a T. From here on it's read based so play carefully. For now you might be better check/folding.