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Ok, I am basically trying to figure out, how to beat the beginners. For some reason I can get a great read on avg-good players, but the beginners are tough to figure out. So how do you play them?
do you only play high pocket pairs, and high card splits? And then just keep betting until you take down the pot or what?
I have been debating this for a while, and trying to figure out the newbies.
(1) Play Big Card Theory
(2) Dont Bluff
(3) Expect to show your hand on the river and take the pots.
I had a post somewhere else that had more information on this. Most of the books I read say the same thing.
Sometimes I feel like it's harder to beat a beginner than a seasoned player. They play any hand and just catch runner after runner. I remember my very first poker game. I played everything and won. Then I read a little and lost everything to other begginers. :?
Ignorance is bliss I guess.
Playing online is pretty much a crap shoot as to who's been playing for how long. So a tight/aggresive stance early always gets me better results. This allows all the newbies to knock each other out. Then the last newbie left usually gets eaten alive by the more experienced players in the later rounds.
Big cards actually go down in value, drawing hands go up pairs and Axs can take down monster pots when they hit and you will always be paid off. I'll play 22 UTG in these crazy loose games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krapp
EDIT : Yeah sorry all I forgot to mention I'm talking about Limit, thanks for spotting it SteveO
What does UTG mean?
Toasty, you are referring to limit right? If so, I would agree that big cards go down in value. In NL, you have to use more caution. Beginners will call big raises with dominated hands, so when you get that big starting hand make them pay to see that flop.
I find beginners will pay off hands like TPTK all the way down to river when they are holding low, middle pair or top pair with garbage kicker. You just have to know when to release a good hand when they start reraising you.
For example, last night I was forced to lay down AA 3 times in a ring game withing 1 1/2 hours. People were calling my 4 and 6 xBB raise with J10s and Q8s and board kept bringing straight or flush.
Another way that you save money against beginners is their relative lack of aggression or over-aggression. Lack of aggression lets you limp in with the 22, Axs and suited connectors hoping to hit it big. Beginner over-aggression lets you wait for that premium hand or flopped set to take their whole stack.
As mentioned above, against beginners you have to just play the cards and read the board. You can't get much information by their actions because they are calling stations that can have anything and it is hard to bluff. Set traps and bet for value when you hit a hand.
UTG = Under the Gun, the first person after the blinds. First person to act pre-flop and third to act after the flop if the blinds play.
UTG+1 is the one after
UTG+2 the one after UTG+1
MP1 = Middle Postion, just after UTG +2
MP2 = like above
MP3 = like above
CO = CuttOff seat, not sure why it's called the Cuttoff but its just before the Button
The Button = The dealer button, the very last player to act on almost all rounds of betting apart from Pre-flop which is closed by the blinds unless they raise.
To clarify my position on big card theory (not sure if this is techincally correct) against beginners
Preflop:
(1) Call any marginal/strong preflop cards (connected suitors, AJ-, low/med pairs)
(2) Raise (2-3xBB) any strong preflop cards (AQ+, 10/10+)
Flop:
(1) Bet any TPTK (2x-3xBB to the river)
(2) Call any strong draws (8+) outs (upto pot odds)
(3) Bet or re-raise strong hands, 2pair+. (3xBB+)
(4) Fold anything else
(5) Fold to any type of playback unless you have a strong hand (2pair+). They are either bluffing or have a great hand.
Other:
(1) Dont bother trying to read beginners
(2) Dont play overly aggressive unless you have a strong hand and know ppl will call anything.
(3) Dont bluff
(4) Novices are liable to bet/call anything (say from 2out draws, low pairs, full house). Most of the time, they shouldnt have much so playing TPTK and strong draws, you will extract your profits from that.
looks pretty solid to me krapp
In my experience, beginners don't fold or raise enough.
In beginner hands, you will have to showdown the best hand to win. Make sure the pots they drag in are smaller than the pots you drag in.
Pretty straightforward I think. Just don't try anything fancy. Beginners don't recognize things like check-raises as indications of a monster hand, so it's usually best not to try tactics on them like that, unless they tend to bet trash alot, as opposed to simply calling.
The main thing I use check-raises for it to build the pot.
If you are in LP, and bet...they will just call behind you. So you check, someone else will bet, then you raise. I usually do this on the turn, because they will sometimes just check on the river.
Isn't that the truth...now I am a beginner, but I have been reading/studying my ass off, and try to play with sound strategy. But yesterday I was in a SnG and was dealt A-Ts bet 1.5xBB preflop. Several fold...Flop Ad-Th-2c...since I now know what UTG stands for (thanks Toasty) I was UTG...I bet strong (pot sized bet, maybe a bit more) to see if there are any other aces out there. Everyone folds save one. Turn comes....don't remember the card (junk club) no appearant danger - I move all in - and get called....River 6c - and I get smoked by this guy who had nothing but a pair of 2's on the flop - called two stong bets and caught two running clubs for a flush. WTFQuote:
Originally Posted by Krapp
Should I have really gone all in after the flop before I knew I was good....I keep losing with strong two pair against straight draws, flush draws, 3 of a kind DRAWS. I really have no idea what to do at this point.
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Not sure how they caught a running flush with a 2 in the hole. The board popped 2c so even a club on the turn and river would add up to 4clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavSimon
Obviously in this situation, its always the best play. Now if you think they are drawing to 8-outs+, its good to raise anything above pot odds and make them pay. Now if you put them on a better hand (which is hard to know), allin is probably not good. All-in looks ok to me since you have top 2-pair. But there are probably better plays based on what you think you opp has.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavSimon
(1) Opp has strong draw (8+ outs): Bet around pot odds. AI would make them fold and lower your pot winnings. Interestingly, some of their club outs give you a boat so you they actually have 7outs vs 9outs on the river. You might want to bet pot odds or lower to keep opp in. If you want to scare the out and take down the pot, you bet bigger.
(2) Opp has top pair: A good bet (around size of pot or more) vs allin is probably better. They will probably call any reasonable bet down to the river if they have ace pair or smaller 2-pair. An all-in mostly will scare any opp out.
(3) Opp has trips or better. They will not have the ace trips, so AI has a remote chance of making them folding with any other trips, not likely though. So all-in is probably not good since it maximizes your potential loss.
So based on these scenarios, Allin looks like a decent play but probably not the best play. Again, if the opp is known to call all-ins, it would be a good play.
Make a hand and beat them over the head with it.
I wish I would have sent myself the transcript of the game, so I know exactly what the cards were....fit of rage...going out in 8th on a strong hand after taking several bad beats yesterday I clicked don't send (stupid)- complete waste of 1/2 day off work. I suppose the T was a club and the 2 was not...the A was certainly not.
The strong bet after the flop was designed to see if there were any pocket AA or TT out there...presumably they would have reraised 3 A's or 3 T's. I am not good a quickly calculating outs yet...I was quite pleased with my bet when he called me. But when an A or T didn't come on the turn - I wanted him out...I have been burned so many times by 3 of a kind on the river.
(Just trying to illustrate my thought process)
I do not know if he was likely to call all in at this point it was too early in the game to get a read on anyone. I suppose the lesson here is: play tight early in a SnG, until you have a better read on your OPPs - or you have the "nuts"
Thanks for taking the time to talk me through it.
I seldom have a problem with beginners, which means I either still a beginner or I’ve figured them out somewhat. You can make up your own mind on that one, and it's ok if you don't share your opinion. Sorry it’s so long, but with so many have problems, this deserves a little time.
First, you are looking for a holdem strategy that will take them down or just win their money. WRONG. Remember, these are beginners, not real holdem players. Most all holdem strategies were made for play against others of similar knowledge. Beginners play holdem like spades, hearts, or any other social card game.
Instead of looking for holdem strategies, look at their weaknesses (that you’ve already identified), and take advantage of them. Here are just a few that have worked for me.
Weakness 1: They seldom fold 2nd best hands. Many times they have something (like 3 pair or how about a 4 card straight), but rarely do they have nothing. Take advantage of this by not wasting your time be making huge pre or post flop bets to get them to fold. If they see a flop of AK6, they don’t see your 5BB bet as a threat, because there are 2 more cards to be turned, and they have a 75o which could both be hit and let’s not even talk about the dreaded runner runner straight that beats many a solid player. Just make modest bets with your pair of Aces or Kings, and wait until all the cards are turned. If there is nothing scary on the board, double you modest bet, and count their money for them.
Weakness 2: They don’t bet enough on monster hands. Take advantage by loosening up preflop to take advantage of the fact that they won’t raise their AKs preflop. Don’t start playing crap. You don’t have to. Just play those 89s UTG without worrying about them pressing you. If you don’t hit on the flop, there’s a pretty good chance they will still let you see more free cards. If you do happen to hit what you want on the flop, play it just like you did in Weakness 1.
Weakness 3: Many of you say they cannot be bluffed which is usually true. If and only if you get bored and feel the need to bluff, always use the semi-bluff. You had better have at least a small pair or a really good drawing before tossing large sums of money in the pot. The reason, you could get a call, miss AND still win the pot. “I was hoping for a straight” is a common reasoning for wasting half their chips. They DO NOT care about pot odds or outs. Remember that they only play their hands and not the board, other players, position, or stack sizes. All other card games you lose if you don’t play your cards. The thought that folding as part of a winning strategy alludes them.
Quick tells for playing a beginner live: A quick overbet is a bluff with one exception. If the quick bet is accompanied by shaking hands (they will knock over their stack about half the time) it’s a monster hand so be careful. If they look at their cards for the bzillionth time and then bet, they have something. This is especially true for a flush draw. A stare down is a bluff. Remember, strong is weak…
Final thought. Don’t taunt or belittle them. You want to take their money, not stop them from playing. Complement them when they play well, and console they make stupid bets. “Who would have thought they had a full house; that pair of 10s with a J kicker wins sometimes”. You don’t need to mention that the both 10 were on the board.
If nothing else, this has helped me because I will be playing tonight against some newbies.
That is quite insightful....never really thought of it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by hig13
Sort of a newbie vs newbie story here: (to help give insight on how the newbie mind works)
4 people left in a SnG. I'm on the button, N1 (newbie 1) is to the right of me then N2 and N3.
I get delt K6os, and since this table is ultra passive (limp mania), I was comfy with limping. My stack was also 3x higher than the next closest guy, and about 5x more than the other 2.
N1 (the guy I end up with in the pot) is very passive. 99% of the time he limps, and he usually won't bet unless he has what he thinks is the best hand (pre and post flop).
N1 raises to 2xBB, right off the bat I'm thinking he has pocket pairs, or possibly AK/Q/J. N2 and N3 fold.
I call. Blinds are 50/100 now, so keep that in mind when bets occur.
Flop is K?K
? = 99% sure it was an 8
He bets 2xBB, I call. Thinking he probably has something like AQ or maybe even QQ and he's trying to buy out the pot with a weak bet (heh?) or test if I have a king.
Normally I would be more aggressive, but this is the 1st hand that looks like I could possibly slow play to a victory. If I bet anything over him, there's a good chance he'd fold and at this point I'd rather eliminate him rather than take down an ok pot.
Turn is a 7. Everything is unsuited, eliminating any type of a flush.
He fires off another 2xBB bet. I call. The thought of him hitting a boat is a possibility, but he seemed like the player that would unload a bigger bet if he nailed it.
His chip stack was like 1200 before he put out his first 2xBB bet.
Ok, so now the river comes and it's a 5. Definite straight possibility here, but I doubt he would have raised at all if he was holding rags (suited or not). So I wasn't thinking about that at all.
He bets 350. Since I have 6000+ chips to his 1200 I figured I'd see exactly what he was thinking.
I raise for another 350, for a total of 700. He pauses for a short while (unlike his instant raises before), and then calls it.
I was waiting for him to come over the top and go all in but he didn't. I left him enough chips to get eaten alive by the blinds, and to test his hand.
He turns over A5os?
I don't think he put me on the king, because usually I landed crap cards and just semi-bluffed the pot at the flop if I wanted to take it down (which worked almost everytime).
So... what I'm thinking here is that he was playing way too safe (the thought of me having a king was probably in his mind), so he was betting small amounts and hoped I didn't have it.
Honestly if he fired all in after the turn, I would have probably pegged him on the boat and folded (I had what I thought was a good read on him).
Moral of story: Newbies definitely have really strange betting habits.
I also rarely have problems with beginners, provided I can identify them.
I agree that you should not bet against beginners to get them to fold. Every bet you make should be for value. Against beginners, if you find yourself betting and then hoping against hope that they do not call, that probably means it wasn't a good bet.
This does not mean you shouldn't raise pre-flop or make big bets post-flop. It just means you shouldn't do this with the intention of getting people out of the hand. It should always be done with the intention of getting more money in the pot.