Advice needed....

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08-09-2004, 03:23 PM
KewlKatt

Advice needed....

Being still rather new to online poker (3-4months now) I'm looking to improve my game to the next level. Consider I've never read a poker book and never played before 4 months ago( aside from a small run at true poker playing with the funny money) where should I look to improve my game?

Some things to consider:
- I don't like reading books to learn, I've always learn 5x faster from experience.
- I like the MTT, but they just arn't supporting the cash required for the learning curve.
- I don't like playing strategies in a book, or following the "un-written" rules of poker.
- Most importantly I'm in it for the entertainment, but I don't want that entertainment to cost me anything.

At this point, I'm still in the red for Withdrawls -> Deposits. About 1K behind. I have $300 at stars to commit to a game plan... but need a game plan.

I've tried everything, and had good runs and bad at all game types / levels. I'm a good MTT NL player, but when I play NL at the ring games I tend to get hurt on the action flops.

I'm thinking either commiting that $300 to 30 $10.00 Sngs or following the 300BB rule of thumb, move to the 0.50/1 limit tables and start mixing it up. What do I need to know about variance to be succussful at the limit tables or the Sngs.

If I play limit, from my understanding I should follow these levels to ensure I don't blow my bank.

0.50/1 = 300
1/2 = 600
2/4 = 1200
4/8 = 2400

Few things I could use some help with, what is EV+? either an explanation or link would be great. Who are these 2+2 people I keep hearing about.

And how the hell do you fold AA after the flop!!!!!! :evil:
08-09-2004, 03:31 PM
fishstick

this probably sounds lame, but what do like playing the most? what have you been most successful at?

that should be the start of your plan.
08-09-2004, 03:35 PM
Fnord

Re: Advice needed....

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

Some things to consider:
- I don't like reading books to learn, I've always learn 5x faster from experience.
- I like the MTT, but they just arn't supporting the cash required for the learning curve.
- I don't like playing strategies in a book, or following the "un-written" rules of poker.
- Most importantly I'm in it for the entertainment, but I don't want that entertainment to cost me anything.

Either come to terms with the fact you're unlikely to be a winning player, find a new hobby or rethink what you wrote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

Few things I could use some help with, what is EV+? either an explanation or link would be great. Who are these 2+2 people I keep hearing about.

EV is Expected Value. +EV is a move that you expect to make money in the long run. Poker is all about minimizing -EV and maximizing +EV.

www.twoplustwo.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

And how the hell do you fold AA after the flop!!!!!! :evil:

Play limit and you rarely have to.
08-09-2004, 03:35 PM
KewlKatt

MTT (500+ entrants) are my favorite by large, but I'm not winning enough to sustain playing them and not learning enough to do better.

What would be great is to improve my game enough to compete in the final 50 of MTT consistently. right now I'm dropping to much in entry fees and not getting any sustainable ROI to keep playing.
08-09-2004, 03:41 PM
mike4066

Re: Advice needed....

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

Some things to consider:
- I don't like reading books to learn, I've always learn 5x faster from experience.

There is plenty online for you to read, you don't have to study books contantly. But there will be reading involved. I'm the same way I learn from experience, but poker is a game thats too expensive to learn by trial and error.

Quote:

- I like the MTT, but they just arn't supporting the cash required for the learning curve.

Try the single table SnG's or the 2 table SnG's. They are a bit easier on the bankroll and easier to finish well in.

Quote:

- I don't like playing strategies in a book, or following the "un-written" rules of poker.

If you don't want to follow proven strategies then don't play, or don't expect to win on a regular basis.

Quote:

- Most importantly I'm in it for the entertainment, but I don't want that entertainment to cost me anything.

Then use the play money. Poker isn't exciting like TV makes it out to be. It isn't a get rich quick game, If you want to be a winner it taked dicipline, patience and time.

Quote:

At this point, I'm still in the red for Withdrawls -> Deposits. About 1K behind. I have $300 at stars to commit to a game plan... but need a game plan.

The game plan your looking for is laid out many time over in many poker books.
I'd learn the fundamentals of poker, grouping, pot odds.

Quote:

I've tried everything, and had good runs and bad at all game types / levels. I'm a good MTT NL player, but when I play NL at the ring games I tend to get hurt on the action flops.

Good runs and bad runs? Without sound strategy your "good" runs are just luck on your side and it doesn't hold up long.

By good in MTT, do you mean you finish in at the final table, take first place, or just make it past the first break?
Based off what you said I'll guess you don't make the money often.

Quote:

I'm thinking either commiting that $300 to 30 $10.00 Sngs or following the 300BB rule of thumb, move to the 0.50/1 limit tables and start mixing it up. What do I need to know about variance to be succussful at the limit tables or the Sngs.

With what you've said i don't believe the 300BB will not sustain you in .5/1.. You need to learn the ropes and disipline.

Quote:

If I play limit, from my understanding I should follow these levels to ensure I don't blow my bank.

0.50/1 = 300
1/2 = 600
2/4 = 1200
4/8 = 2400

As a general rule, yes.

Quote:

Few things I could use some help with, what is EV+? either an explanation or link would be great. Who are these 2+2 people I keep hearing about.

+EV is Plus expected Value.. If you play a hand with +EV you can expect to win money. If your have a -EV and win great, but try it over and over, you'll lose money over time.

Quote:

And how the hell do you fold AA after the flop!!!!!! :evil:

Hardest thing to do is laydown a nice hand.

Learn that you'll be above 30% of the people online.
08-09-2004, 03:43 PM
fishstick

i have to agree with fnord - if you're not willing to put some study into it, the going is going to be tough. there's no substitute for experience, but study gets you thinking about things outside of the "gotta make a decision right now" environment.

as to what to play, if big MTT's are what you like, play the $1, $3, $5 on poker stars. i would think that with just a little effort, you could at least get into the money often enough that you wouldn't lose money overall.
08-09-2004, 03:46 PM
Xianti

Re: Advice needed....

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

- Most importantly I'm in it for the entertainment, but I don't want that entertainment to cost me anything.

If it's primarily for entertainment, and MAKING money is not your main goal, and you don't want to read anything to learn and improve your game, then what is your goal?
08-09-2004, 03:57 PM
KewlKatt

First, thanks for the quick replies

Quote:

By good in MTT, do you mean you finish in at the final table, take first place, or just make it past the first break?
Based off what you said I'll guess you don't make the money often.

lol, I'm not that bad, my tourney points since starting at Pstars.

1721314 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-06-02 22:15 $ 10.00 718 54 73.32
1721386 Hold'em Limit 2004-06-05 10:00 $ 1.00 480 62 30.52
1773195 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-06-07 21:00 freeroll 4000 226 16.74
1773298 Stud Limit 2004-06-10 23:59 $ 3.00 312 35 45.14
1824142 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-06-15 20:10 $ 5.00 986 141 45.49
1824177 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-06-16 22:30 $ 3.00 1334 37 90.78
1924182 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-06-29 19:05 $ 3.00 1117 70 60.39
1983642 Hold'em Limit 2004-07-11 09:00 $ 1.00 387 54 29.36
1983661 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-07-11 23:59 $ 20.00 564 42 84.52
2039252 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-07-13 19:05 $ 3.00 1197 157 41.75
2039281 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-07-14 20:05 $ 5.00 1245 132 52.83
2039408 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-07-18 22:15 $ 10.00 929 28 115.82
2090179 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-07-21 22:15 $ 10.00 743 18 129.18
2157418 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-07-26 22:15 $ 10.00 1021 66 79.08
2220376 Hold'em NoLimit 2004-08-02 16:45 $ 10.00 515 66 56.17

I don't play on weekends and only a few nights weeknights I sit down for a session. these don't have the satellites, I tend to do better in sats, avg 1 win for every 5 lost. $3 rebuys mostly on avg spending 6-12 in rebuys/addons.

Quote:

You need to learn the ropes and disipline

That is essentially what I'm asking for help with. Where does one start learning the ropes. I understand I came into the game like most fish do, but I'm not one to stay a fish for very long.
08-09-2004, 04:06 PM
KewlKatt

Quote:

If it's primarily for entertainment, and MAKING money is not your main goal, and you don't want to read anything to learn and improve your game, then what is your goal?

I like to gamble, I do like making money, but I don't want to have to grind everyday at 0.05/0.10 to learn either. I'm willing to take advice, from what you've seen of my game, where should I start learning the ropes of the "consistent winning side of poker".

If all of you are saying your on the plus side because you grind and read the books, then I'm inclined to pick up a book sooner than later, so books arn't out of the question, I'm just saying I learn much more from playing than reading.
08-09-2004, 04:10 PM
Fnord

Pick up a copy of Theory of Poker. It will explain a lot of big picture stuff.

BTW, it's ok to be a losing player. We need people like you at the table. It takes some time, but after a few months I learned to appreciate the beauty of the 72o suck-out.
08-09-2004, 04:14 PM
KewlKatt

sorry, that chart was jiberish, here is a little better version

Game Buy-In Entrants Place

Hold'em NoLimit $10.00 718 54
Hold'em Limit $1.00 480 62
Hold'em NoLimit freer 4000 226
Stud Limit $3.00 312 35
Hold'em NoLimit $5.00 986 141
Hold'em NoLimit $3.00 1334 37
Hold'em NoLimit $3.00 1117 70
Hold'em Limit $1.00 387 54
Hold'em NoLimit $20.00 564 42
Hold'em NoLimit $3.00 1197 157
Hold'em NoLimit $5.00 1245 132
Hold'em NoLimit $10.00 929 28
Hold'em NoLimit $10.00 743 18
Hold'em NoLimit $10.00 1021 66
Hold'em NoLimit $10.00 515 66
08-09-2004, 04:18 PM
Xianti

I'm at the point now where I make a regular monthly income from playing Hold'em. But, as mike4066 said, it isn't all fun and glitz like it looks on TV. After a while, it certainly does become a grind. It takes patience to stay profitable (or break even), as most of the time, you're just folding.

If you're getting entertainment from the adrenaline-rush of simply "gambling" and are an action junky and want to play a lot of hands just to be involved, you will lose money.

Those of us that are profitable at this read, study, analyze our plays and others' plays, and study some more. To be fair, I've only read one book, Hold'em for Advanced Players, but I've read every article on the FTR site and studied just about every post here in the FTR forums, and continue to read everything that's posted here. It's simple due diligence.
08-09-2004, 04:23 PM
Fnord

Also realize that you can be a winning player and break even because of the rake (which even at 5% is waaaayyy higher than it really needs to be.)

Oh, and Party's .25c Jackpot drop with a 10% "Administrative fee" is just plain silly.
08-09-2004, 04:24 PM
fishstick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Oh, and Party's .25c Jackpot drop with a 10% "Administrative fee" is just plain silly.

what's this?
08-09-2004, 05:03 PM
mike4066

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishstick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Oh, and Party's .25c Jackpot drop with a 10% "Administrative fee" is just plain silly.

what's this?

The bad-beat jackpot.

It's sick what they are charging. Log into PP and click on the jackpot link up top.. it will tell you..
08-09-2004, 05:29 PM
fishstick

skimming the bad beat jackpot?

that's low...
08-09-2004, 05:46 PM
Fortune 500

I started a lot like you did... just seeing it on TV and really wanting to play for the amusement factor. It wasn't so amusing when I got my hindquarters handed to me on a platter a few times.

A few too many people, myself included at one time, saw this game as more luck than skill. That's a deadly attitude.

But I started looking for more information. The fact that there were pros made it obvious to me there was a better way to play. Getting lucky won't sustain a career.

You've really got to study the game if you want to be successful at it. Books, Televised poker, and this web site are really the best resources you can have access to.
08-09-2004, 06:19 PM
Humphrind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortune 500

Getting lucky won't sustain a career.

I can think of a few people to mention. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by A great man

You can't ignore luck. How else can you explain the success of your enemies.
08-09-2004, 07:00 PM
twosevoff

I'd suggest moving your bankroll over to Party (or Empire) Poker. This will yield you a $60 deposit bonus, and the games on Party are much easier to beat and more fishy than Pokerstars. I think just about anybody could make money playing tight at the NL 25 tables. If you just stick to limping with (and calling any reasonable raises looking for a set) pocket pairs 22-99 from any positon, raising to at least 4xbb with AK AA KK and QQ from any position (limping AK and limping looking to reraise with AA and KK from EP are moves I like a lot though), limping from early and raising from LP with AQs JJ TT, and limping from MP/LP with suited 20 or 21 hands, you should be able to make a nice profit.
08-09-2004, 07:12 PM
Fortune 500

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humphrind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortune 500

Getting lucky won't sustain a career.

I can think of a few people to mention. :P

point taken... but you know what I mean.
08-09-2004, 07:30 PM
KewlKatt

well on the way home from work I picked up online poker for dummies from chapters :P

hehe seriously, I ordered Theory of Poker and I'll give it a read, will probably have some questions for you all on your interpretations of it once I get through it.

They only had some odd books about poker in stock, and only one notable one, Super System. I was thinking about buying, but recall people mentioning it is outdated, and was only like %25-%35 committed to holdem. I skimmed through it and noticed there was a lot dealing with the basics I already knew. It did however get my interest peaked when he talked about the double belly buster straight draw and how most players don't notice the strt draw as easily as the inside strt.

Is there another name for it? because I never notice many people referring to it and would be interested in reading more about it.
08-09-2004, 08:52 PM
michael1123

I just wanted to note that I don't think books are essential to be a good player that at least breaks even, but studying your game is. Honestly, I haven't read any poker books yet, but it isn't because of a lack of interest. I'll be getting around to starting to do so soon.

And if you want a good place to improve your game, you're at it. The main page of FTR will really help you develop a basic game. Read all of the links on the main page, and go back to ones you don't fully understand multiple times. Cardplayer magazine (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/) is another site with a lot of great articles that you can learn a lot from.

Finally, if you're going to play NL, I recommend SNGs as a starting place, especially since it sounds like you're a loose and possibly aggressive player. Plus, you're putting a cap on your losses in any given session, just by the number of SNGs you play.
08-19-2004, 11:27 AM
Krapp

Re: Advice needed....

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

- I don't like reading books to learn, I've always learn 5x faster from experience.

Playing alot is great way to learn. However you will need to validate your playing stradegy by reading some theory. I was able to make a sizable profit just by playing, but after reading some books, my play significantly improved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

- I like the MTT, but they just arn't supporting the cash required for the learning curve.

I would avoid MTT. They require some 50/50 coin flips to place money. With the same type of play, you can make profit and single-table tournaments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

- I don't like playing strategies in a book, or following the "un-written" rules of poker.

The problem here is that you wont be sure if your strategy is good or has some flaws. The best way to determine the strength of your strategy is playing 100's of games (I would suggest no limit tables or SnGs) and see if your profitable. Be sure not to deviate from your strategy. If you are losing, identify a part of your strategy to change, and play 100's of more games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

- Most importantly I'm in it for the entertainment, but I don't want that entertainment to cost me anything.

If you have a solid strategy, you will win money at any level of holdem games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

At this point, I'm still in the red for Withdrawls -> Deposits. About 1K behind. I have $300 at stars to commit to a game plan... but need a game plan.

You are investing too much money based on your under-performing strategy. I would suggest playing at $5 single-table tournies (on Paradise). The trick is too develop a profitable strategy at the cheapest cost. Once your profitable strategy is proven, move-up to higher betting games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

I've tried everything, and had good runs and bad at all game types / levels. I'm a good MTT NL player, but when I play NL at the ring games I tend to get hurt on the action flops.

I wouldnt measure your play based on the MTT experience. The rings games losses are definately a good indicator that your strategy has some major flaws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

I'm thinking either commiting that $300 to 30 $10.00 Sngs or following the 300BB rule of thumb, move to the 0.50/1 limit tables and start mixing it up. What do I need to know about variance to be succussful at the limit tables or the Sngs.

I would stop you here and tell you to strictly play $5 SnGs on Paradise. On table-games, if you are overall profitable at any given session (100+ games), your strategy should be good. At SnG's you should place top-3 every 3 tournies. If you are busting-out (not placing in top 3) 4 tournies in-a-row, theres something wrong.
08-19-2004, 12:05 PM
jmrogers7

Just my two cents, but I would play at least the $10+$1 SNGs at Paradise. The competition is the same and the rake is still only $1. The payouts/rake are much more favorable playing $10+$1. The $5+$1 are a waste of time in my opinion.