What would you do on these two hands?

Hand 1. You're UTG at a table that has been pretty maniac especially preflop. You have $65. You are dealt a 10d,10s. You call the big blind of $3 expecting that there will be a large preflop bet then you can assess from there. Surprisingly four more people just limp in after you.

Flop [7s,5c, 2d]

Action is on you and you bet $15 at the $15 pot.

Everyone folds around to the dealer who just calls. You know that this guy plays very loose and you've seen him bet big on second pair many times.

Turn comes [7s,5c,2d,9h]

You bet another $15 and get reraised another $15.

River comes [7s,5c,2d,9h,Qd]

You check and he raises $30

What do you do?



Hand 2.

You are the big blind at a tight table where you just witnessed the guy to your left bluff big at a table with four spades. Turns out he only had high pair and made 2 others fold their flushes. Wow.

You are dealt 7c,5c and the only person to call is that same guy to your left. You just check.

Flop comes [Qd, 9c, 6c]

You check and he checks

Turn comes [Jc]

You've hit your flush and give the slow play check.

He bets $5.
You call $5.

River comes [Ah]

You check and he raises $50

What do you do?

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On the first hand. I would only open limp TT from UTG on a full table. 6 or less it's a no-brainer raise. You want to play heads up with TT.

With that flop, in a big mult-pot with no set, I'm inclined to check and see what the table does, intending to fold or raise the flop or turn. If it's checked around and the turn looks safe, then I would make a move.

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Originally Posted by ShadySully

Hand 1. You're UTG at a table that has been pretty maniac especially preflop. You have $65. You are dealt a 10d,10s. You call the big blind of $3 expecting that there will be a large preflop bet then you can assess from there. Surprisingly four more people just limp in after you.

Flop [7s,5c, 2d]

Action is on you and you bet $15 at the $15 pot.

Everyone folds around to the dealer who just calls. You know that this guy plays very loose and you've seen him bet big on second pair many times.

Turn comes [7s,5c,2d,9h]

You bet another $15 and get reraised another $15.

River comes [7s,5c,2d,9h,Qd]

You check and he raises $30

What do you do?

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The guys has atleast a pair of queens, maybe two pair. But that just my instinct. You said he was loose he could have low pair and then the Queens came to give him a strong two pair. I'm only speculating and then again i'm a rookie. If it was me.. ID fold and eat it..

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Hand 2.

You are the big blind at a tight table where you just witnessed the guy to your left bluff big at a table with four spades. Turns out he only had high pair and made 2 others fold their flushes. Wow.

You are dealt 7c,5c and the only person to call is that same guy to your left. You just check.

Flop comes [Qd, 9c, 6c]

You check and he checks

Turn comes [Jc]

You've hit your flush and give the slow play check.

He bets $5.
You call $5.

River comes [Ah]

You check and he raises $50

What do you do?

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dood you have a HIGH flush. has to have either a pair of aces, prob 3 if at best. Take his ass to the cleaners go all in! (hope thats the right move) Id do it.. again.. i'm a beginner so I could be wrong

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Originally Posted by ShadySully

Turn comes [7s,5c,2d,9h]

You bet another $15 and get reraised another $15.

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Right there is the big mistake. Either you got the best hand or you don't. Your hand will very rarely improve. Either push or fold. Min raise on the turn smells like a set, against most players this is a fold.

hand 1

even UTG, i'd do a 3xBB raise pre flop just to see where you are in the hand and to chase a few people out. the way you describe it, flop bet is ok, turn bet is weak (which could be the reason for the reraise), the check on the river is weak.

to answer your question, i'd fold. with no raise preflop, he could have anything - a set, straight, two pair, bigger pair.

hand 2

you've got the baby flush with still one card to come - not a hand i would slowplay check with. on the turn, overbet the pot and see what kind of reaction you get - if he's got two clubs and one's bigger than the 7, you're hosed. if he comes over the top of you, then you've got something to think about.

Don't second guess how the hypothetical hands were played out guys, its a chose now senario! Second hypothetical thread in a row you guys do this, geez!

Anyway, I would've raised 5x BB preflop with the tens and ... oh wait ...

#1 - You say he's a very loose player that bets big on second pair. There's no reason to assume the river helped him, as he's just continuing his previous betting, since he has no reason to assume the river helped you either. Because he's a loose player, and you're getting 3 to 1 on your money ($60 in pot plus his $30 bet), I'd call this. If he's that loose, he could have something like A9, makes a very loose (and bad) call on the flop, and then hits top pair and raises you. He could also have 86 and have a straight. Or missed a straight draw. Or have two pair. Or just be trying to bluff you out. You don't really know with this guy, and therefore I think with 3 to 1 pot odds its worth calling, learning more about his style, and adding notes about how he played this hand. And from what you know already, I think its safe to say that you have a better than 3 to 1 chance of winning this (probably closer to 50%).

#2 - Why risk it? There's practically nothing in the pot, and the bet is way over the pot size. If he showed his bluff last time, he's likely counting on a loose call here. A player, unless they're a complete moron, doesn't show a big bluff and then go and do it again the next hand. If he bluffed you out again (as in he shows), oh well, you lost very little. Add it to his notes and wait for a better hand to take this maniac down with.

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Originally Posted by michael1123

Don't second guess how the hypothetical hands were played out guys, its a chose now senario. Second hypothetical thread in a row you guys do this, geez!

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Well thank you for insulting an entire forum in one swoop. It was very nice. Hey, don't sell youself short. To insult soooo many people with just 1 sentence, it takes a lot of thought. Good job. How about this one... "Y'all are a buncha idiots!"

We're just doing our duties. Someone asks us what we would do, and we tell them. That's kinda the point of this whole thing.

You did it too!!! You can't say, "Don't do that! And here, let me do it."

Geez!

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Originally Posted by Humphrind

You did it too!!! You can't say, "Don't do that! And here, let me do it."

Geez!

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That was the point!

Geez! :P

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Originally Posted by michael1123

Don't second guess how the hypothetical hands were played out guys, its a chose now senario! Second hypothetical thread in a row you guys do this, geez!

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A couple thoughts...

o The answer isn't as important as the reason. Often there is not a single absolute answer.
o A move earlier in a hand can set-up difficult decisions or compounding errors.

For sure. But its an interesting senario to try and tell a guy what you think he should do after he did all this, even if you don't agree with the choices. The limited information makes it more difficult.

My only real point was that you guys answered the wrong question, and didn't say what you'd do now.

I was joking with the "insulting" tone that Humphrind mentions.

Hand 1 is a fold, and a fold I'd make on the turn actually. I'm guessing set or better overpair.

I'm having a hard time with Hand 2's river descision. Yes, the turn was played poorly here (you don't slowplay a low flush), but another club didn't come on the river, so he needs 2 clubs to beat you. I get the distinct feeling that the Ace helped him somehow, maybe for 2 pair. If he had the flush, and value bet the turn, why not value bet the river too? Why flop out of your shoes with a huge raise? I'm putting him on A9o. He didn't bet 2nd pair on the flop, decided to bet it on the turn after you don't bet the Queen on the flop or turn, and then when he hits two pair he makes a foolish overbet (trying to capitalize on his earlier bluffs) considering that the flush is out there. I might actually call on this one, but it's a tough call. If he is a maniac, you can't give that raise too much respect. I tend to take the fall in this situation...I've lost flush vs. flush before (when it's 3 suited on board, not 4 suited). I almost look at it like set losing to better set....it will happen, but you can't always play that scared. I'd put him on 2 pair or a total bluff, and call.

First of all I'd like to thank you all for your responses! And no, I do not mind people saying how they would've played the hands. I also appreciate the guys who took the time to answer how they would've played it given the scenario as it stands. This is how we all learn right?

What I would like to do is reveal how these hands actually played out and then maybe discuss how things would've played out differently if I would've followed some of your advice.

Hand 1.

This was a tournament that was played late the other night. The buy in was $20 but being so late with guys having to go to work the next morning things were moving real quick. 3 guys had gone out in the first half hour because the raising preflop was crazy.

I really should've played the 10,10 more aggresively even UTG but I was fully expecting a large raise by someone else. Being early in the tournament I didn't want to put a lot of chips at risk especially when guys were dropping like flies. I wanted to make it into the money.

I did call the bet and the guy ended up having a 6 and an 8 to give him the straight on the turn. If I would've bet more aggressively preflop or on the flop I probably would've taken down a small pot. I guess I should've known that he would be holding rags and there was a good chance he'd have two pair or straight draw. I knew he didn't have a set because he definately would raise with a pocket pair. Looking back I'm kind of surprised he called the pot size bet with an open ended straight draw.

I guess I had very little respect for the guy after seeing him play so recklessly in the past. Instead I was the reckless one. :oops:

Would you guys play this hands aggresively early in a tournament setting?


Hand 2.

This one really chaps my rawhide! It was another tournament and this hand pretty much ended my night.

The guy had a (10c, 3c) to give him the flush on the turn as well. I did call the $50 bet because I really believed that he was just overbetting the small pot to try and steal it. I played the hand weakly to that point so I'm pretty sure he didn't think I had the flush. Why would he bet so big? Why not value bet there? Who am I to say though he did take all my chips :?

A couple people commented that I shouldn't have slow played the small flush on the turn. What would be a smart bet in this situation? Regardless it would've been a tough lay down for me because I know this guy would bluff at anything.

I guess I'm realizing that I'm really an infant in respect to my skill at this game. However I AM trying to learn which is a lot more than I can say for the group of guys I play with. There is only one other guy who actually studies any strategy and knows what he is doing. The other guys have no idea about outs, pot odds, etc.

I think this may be some of my problem. I'll read all this great info and then go into the game thinking that everyone is playing their cards technically sound. I end up getting caught mis-reading many of their plays and getting burned. Then out of fear I play way too conservatively.

Once again thanks for your time.

Well, that's unfortunate about hand #2. I still have very mixed feelings over whether a river call is right there (forgeting that the turn was misplayed). A value bet on the river for him just makes more sense if he has the flush.......but I suppose his thinking was this:

He wisely bets his non-face card high flush on the turn, and you call. This means to him one of three things:

1. You've got a flush, and it's better than his (thus you felt you could slowplay it like you did). He goes broke if this is the case, but he'll take that chance.

2. You're drawing to a higher flush. You don't have the flush yet, but you've got a high club in your hand.

3. You've got some other monster you've been slowplaying, and you don't believe he has the flush, even though he's representing it. (This is what the scenario really was...you were slowplaying your made flush).

When the river card doesn't make it four clubs on board, here's his possible thinking:

1. If he's got a higher flush and I go all-in I'm broke, but I'll take this chance.

2. If he was on a high flush draw and didn't hit, he won't even call a value bet, so why bet small?

3. If he had some weaker hand than my flush that's still a big hand, he may call any bet with it. After all, I represented the flush on the turn and he didn't go away. Let's see how good his hand really is! All-in! Please call!

This may have been his possible train of thought to justify his betting pattern. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit....maybe it was more like "Duh...I've got a flush and that's a good hand...bet it all!" :wink:

Sorry that hand broke ya :?

Yeah, I think it was more of the 3rd. Like I said in my post, he probably wouldn't bluff big twice in a row, and the pot odds were horrible. I just wouldn't risk that call, because of how much you have to lose.-

Hand 1:
Dealer could be on anything, hard to say. Your hand looks real good, until he calls the $15 after the flop. What do you call $15 on for a $15 pot? He's got you beat at this point, especially with the 9 on 4th street. You can stab at the pot with another bet, at least $20, or check from here (which is what i would do). I would fold a big bet but otherwise cut my losses and play another hand. With NL games you can play smart and consistent for hours increasing your roll, but one bad beat such as this will destroy your hours of great playing. Maybe your getting bluffed, but you will get him next time. I just can't see losing your whole stack with 10's as an overpair, especially with the cheap blinds.

Hand 2:
The first thing I would have done different is take the lead on fourth street. He bets $5, your in an early position, raise and put the pressure on him now. He's probably betting on a high flush draw, hoping you fold anyway. You raise $10-$15 more and he folds, you win the pot. If he calls, i put him on two pair, maybe trips with a possible high club. When the Ah comes out i would bet $15, he's probably gonna fold. At most call, at this point he's got a good hand but can you put him on a higher flush? I cant especially after the situation from the hand before.