can't out bet, can't slow play...

I had a hand last night in a live game. Not the first time this has happened. I want all your opinions.

1st position, small blind (50), delt :kh: , :3s:

Limped in to see the flop, :kd: , :2d: , :3d:

What would you do here. There are 5 people in this hand, you are sure at least 1 has a diamond, probably an ace.

I checked, someone bet 500. I thought about it a while and called. Now there are 2 people in the hand. I was praying for a K or a 3.

:6d: on the turn.

Checks around.

:td: on the river.

I check, he bets, i fold.

I can't imagine that we would split, he's got to have a diamond to have stayed this long. (he did show a diamond as he folded)

I have had this type of hand many times before. I felt I could have scared anyone off except a :qd: or a :ad: and in first position, I wasn't able to judge. I have played a hand where I tripped my pocket pair on a suited flop. I was in last position and I forced everyone else out.

How would you have played this?

Cash game, check/raise all-in on the flop, unless I otherwise have a read.

Tourney, this is probably a fold.

Calling here is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Cash game, check/raise all-in on the flop, unless I otherwise have a read.

Tourney, this is probably a fold.

Calling here is a bad idea.

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i'm assuming "tourney" because of the 500 flop bet - it's a fold to that size bet.

now if you'd had a diamond, especially :kd: then you've got 'lots of potential outs.

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Originally Posted by fishstick

i'm assuming "tourney" because of the 500 flop bet - it's a fold to that size bet.

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No, because it's a bad idea to risk all your chips when you're either a marginal favorite or a big dog. Actually, his overbetting the pot is probably a sign you're ahead and he's on a flush draw or afraid of one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishstick

now if you'd had a diamond, especially :kd: then you've got 'lots of potential outs.

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VERY different situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishstick

i'm assuming "tourney" because of the 500 flop bet - it's a fold to that size bet.

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No, because it's a bad idea to risk all your chips when you're either a marginal favorite or a big dog. Actually, his overbetting the pot is probably a sign you're ahead and he's on a flush draw or afraid of one.

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i agree that on the flop humphrind is probably still ahead with his two pair (the overbet suggests it), and it would be useful to know the stack sizes of the parties involved, but i'd either put the opponent on ace diamond, or a made flush without the ace, trying to scare off someone who might be holding the ace.

either case, assuming 500 is a decent portion of my stack (let's say 50%), the bet size puts me off, even if i am initially ahead. if it were a 100, maybe i'd call to see the turn (although, 100 would tell me the flush has probably been made) for a 3 or K, but with a flush flop, it's hard to really know where you are. a lot of people overbet flopped flushes, especially if the they don't have the ace or king.

and then the diamond falls on the turn...

i don't like hands like this! :x

I believe we discussed this situation before with trips vs. a flush draw.

Cash game:

Off the flop, I would put out a 50% pot feeler bet. I would not go all-in because someone could have flopped a flush, especially on Party with people playing anything suited. If a 4th suited card comes down I'm checking/folding or calling if it is a very small bet. If no more suited cards come I will make small bets that someone with top pair would call. If he comes over top of me I'll fold. I probably get bluffed out of some pots but oh well.

Tourney:

not sure..

With a PP you are a 2:1 dog of making a FH by the river, with a split 2 pair you are a 5:1 dog.

Without a diamond, and 5 people seeing the flop I'd fold to this 500 bet, unless I had a big enough stack (Big enough not to dent it to much) and odds to chase the FH.