ARCHIVE: Pre-flop raising
MagicMark
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Pre-flop raising [post #1]
Over at LowLimitHoldem.com there is an essay the gist of which is "don't raise pre-flop". apparently their game plan is to see the flop as cheaply as possible. The examples they use to illustrate this is a loose-passive, low-limit game.
They offer 2 points as "proof". That in such a loose-passive game, everyone will probably call anyway, and that "raising is contagious", so soon there will be alot of raises and the betting will be capped before the flop.
The 2nd point is that if you only bet with big hands (AA, KK, AKs, AQs), then you give up too much info to your opponents and someone who limps in might hit 2 pair and beat you. And then, if you start raising with lesser hands, others will start raising with lesser hands also, so you will lose control of the game.
Although I can understand the reasoning (based on the specific examples they quote) I have trouble agreeing with this conclusion. For example, I can see just calling with a strong hand in late position pre-flop, as a raise probably won't do any good. But I believe they should be played aggressively earlier.
Any thoughts?
-- Magic Mark
Nov 16, 2003 at 03:25 PM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #2]
I would have to disagree w/ their conclusions as well. Let's say that in this loose-passive game (which is the best game to be in for us), "everyone will call anyway". I'm assuming this is a Limit game - because in no-limit, you can absolutely lessen the playing field with a larger bet.
Ok, so in a low-stakes limit game, maybe everyone does call... is that so bad if you know you have the best hand at that point? The pot gets larger, even though your AA or KK is less likely to hold up, you are still an odds favorite to win the hand. You lose more often, but when you do win, the pot will more than make up for the previous losses.
Regarding the other point, rather than not raise w/ the big hands, it would be better to mix it up w/ raising randomly on good mulit-way hands - ie JT suited, QJ suited, maybe Ax suited, for example. Knowing that everyone will call, you will be getting good odds if you hit a flush draw or open-ended straight draw.
Finally, I don't believe that raising is contagious. If the table is loose-passive, the players are weak, they are going to play their weak game, and we need to take advantage of that.
I visited Commerce Casino here in Los Angeles this past Friday (11/14/2003). I played $2-4 limit holdem, exactly this kind of loose, passive table. In the other thread, I mentioned playing against a player who misplayed AA. There was another hand where I had KK. Pre-flop, the player to my right raised, I re-raised, he re-raised, I capped. 5 Players in the hand. The flop came 10, 8, 3 rainbow. Player on my right opened, I raised, he re-raised, I capped. I think 4 players stayed in. Turn was a 7. Player on my right opened, I raised, he called. Still 4 players. River was a Q. I opened, 1 folds, two call. I won the hand w/ KK. The player on my right was holding JJ. Needless to say, the pot was huge, I think over $50.
I think you are correct by doubting those particular conclusions on pre-flop raising. I think pre-flop raising is one of the key strategies that separates the weak player from the winning player.
Nov 16, 2003 at 08:02 PM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #3]
I disagree with their logic . I think that not raising pre-flop with AA is practically a sin. David Sklansky said in one of his holdem books that if you don't put the maximum amount of money in the pot pre-flop when you hold AA in a limit game then you have to ask yourself why you are playing the game.
_________________________________
Nov 17, 2003 at 01:04 AM Quote Print
MagicMark
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #4]
I can't figure out who this reply is going to, as there is only a single Reply button, and so I might be replying to myself!
But the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is to not bet strong hands on the theory it gives away too much info about your hand. I figure it is a GOOD thing to have these other players place me with a big hand. I want them to think twice if I raise, rather than automatically call. Once they've "learned" I bet big hands and they start to fold, I can then start raising with lesser hands.
At least that's my strategy.
-- MagicMark
Nov 17, 2003 at 04:41 AM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #5]
I think that is a very sound strategy and it'll probably pay off.
Nov 17, 2003 at 11:12 PM Quote Print
meng1
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #6]
I think anyone who doesn't believe in pre-flop raising must be smokin'. It is an essential part of a winning strategy. Especially in no limit, pre-flop raising not only pumps up the pot your going to take home, but also pushes out cards that may otherwise win.
For example, those players who like to limp in on any 2 suited or connected cards can flop the flush or straight. When that happens, your AK or pocket pair is no good anymore. But they'll think twice about putting there chips on the line when the raise substantial.
Nov 19, 2003 at 06:29 AM Quote Print
Fnord
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #7]
I followed lowlimitpoker's advise then I learned better. Need to get that pot up on good hands and keep lots of weak hands from seeing the flop.
However, I also disagree with always raising AA, KK and QQ. Never raise them in an early position because the two big bets (or more) to see a flop in will scare off weaker hands. The big 3 pairs hold up so well in multi-pots the more the merrier! Hopefully someone else will raise to scare off the blind and you can re-raise them back to build up a pot fit for a monster hand. The weaker hands are more likely to call the raise after they've already called the blinds.
Before raising pre flop here is my decision process:
o Would I be happy just taking the blinds? Am I attacking them or are there likely to be other hands playing?
o How likely is someone else to raise?
o Am I playing to get a big pot going or get a cheap peek at a flop?
Dec 03, 2003 at 02:43 AM Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #8]
Fnord,
Interesting post. I understand what you mean about raising in early position and scaring off weaker hands. I was just talking to a fellow poker player about that today. But we both agree that maybe we wouldn't raise as much as we would in late position. But we would still raise.
But I don't necessarily think that scaring off weaker hands is a bad thing.
I would not want to play those three hands multi-way. It depends on how much risk you are willing to take vs. the size of the pot. The question that comes to mind: do I want to win a small pot or lose a big pot?
I am happy winning any pot w/ very little risk.
If you know someone after you will raise, that is a completely different scenario, and I would need to know that for sure just to call with those monster hands.
A question for you, do you play limit or no-limit?
Dec 03, 2003 at 03:04 AM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #9]
Even in early position I think it is best to raise when holding hands like AA and KK. Sure you might scare people out but then again those could be the same people that could've gotten lucky on the river and stolen your pot.
One possible exception is when deception is more important than usual like a head-up scenario at the end of a tournament. This would be one of the few times I might slow play a monster hand like AA.
_________________________________
Dec 03, 2003 at 04:56 AM
ARCHIVE: Pre-flop raising
MagicMark
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Pre-flop raising [post #1]
Over at LowLimitHoldem.com there is an essay the gist of which is "don't raise pre-flop". apparently their game plan is to see the flop as cheaply as possible. The examples they use to illustrate this is a loose-passive, low-limit game.
They offer 2 points as "proof". That in such a loose-passive game, everyone will probably call anyway, and that "raising is contagious", so soon there will be alot of raises and the betting will be capped before the flop.
The 2nd point is that if you only bet with big hands (AA, KK, AKs, AQs), then you give up too much info to your opponents and someone who limps in might hit 2 pair and beat you. And then, if you start raising with lesser hands, others will start raising with lesser hands also, so you will lose control of the game.
Although I can understand the reasoning (based on the specific examples they quote) I have trouble agreeing with this conclusion. For example, I can see just calling with a strong hand in late position pre-flop, as a raise probably won't do any good. But I believe they should be played aggressively earlier.
Any thoughts?
-- Magic Mark
Nov 16, 2003 at 03:25 PM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #2]
I would have to disagree w/ their conclusions as well. Let's say that in this loose-passive game (which is the best game to be in for us), "everyone will call anyway". I'm assuming this is a Limit game - because in no-limit, you can absolutely lessen the playing field with a larger bet.
Ok, so in a low-stakes limit game, maybe everyone does call... is that so bad if you know you have the best hand at that point? The pot gets larger, even though your AA or KK is less likely to hold up, you are still an odds favorite to win the hand. You lose more often, but when you do win, the pot will more than make up for the previous losses.
Regarding the other point, rather than not raise w/ the big hands, it would be better to mix it up w/ raising randomly on good mulit-way hands - ie JT suited, QJ suited, maybe Ax suited, for example. Knowing that everyone will call, you will be getting good odds if you hit a flush draw or open-ended straight draw.
Finally, I don't believe that raising is contagious. If the table is loose-passive, the players are weak, they are going to play their weak game, and we need to take advantage of that.
I visited Commerce Casino here in Los Angeles this past Friday (11/14/2003). I played $2-4 limit holdem, exactly this kind of loose, passive table. In the other thread, I mentioned playing against a player who misplayed AA. There was another hand where I had KK. Pre-flop, the player to my right raised, I re-raised, he re-raised, I capped. 5 Players in the hand. The flop came 10, 8, 3 rainbow. Player on my right opened, I raised, he re-raised, I capped. I think 4 players stayed in. Turn was a 7. Player on my right opened, I raised, he called. Still 4 players. River was a Q. I opened, 1 folds, two call. I won the hand w/ KK. The player on my right was holding JJ. Needless to say, the pot was huge, I think over $50.
I think you are correct by doubting those particular conclusions on pre-flop raising. I think pre-flop raising is one of the key strategies that separates the weak player from the winning player.
Nov 16, 2003 at 08:02 PM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #3]
I disagree with their logic . I think that not raising pre-flop with AA is practically a sin. David Sklansky said in one of his holdem books that if you don't put the maximum amount of money in the pot pre-flop when you hold AA in a limit game then you have to ask yourself why you are playing the game.
_________________________________
Nov 17, 2003 at 01:04 AM Quote Print
MagicMark
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #4]
I can't figure out who this reply is going to, as there is only a single Reply button, and so I might be replying to myself!
But the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is to not bet strong hands on the theory it gives away too much info about your hand. I figure it is a GOOD thing to have these other players place me with a big hand. I want them to think twice if I raise, rather than automatically call. Once they've "learned" I bet big hands and they start to fold, I can then start raising with lesser hands.
At least that's my strategy.
-- MagicMark
Nov 17, 2003 at 04:41 AM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #5]
I think that is a very sound strategy and it'll probably pay off.
Nov 17, 2003 at 11:12 PM Quote Print
meng1
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #6]
I think anyone who doesn't believe in pre-flop raising must be smokin'. It is an essential part of a winning strategy. Especially in no limit, pre-flop raising not only pumps up the pot your going to take home, but also pushes out cards that may otherwise win.
For example, those players who like to limp in on any 2 suited or connected cards can flop the flush or straight. When that happens, your AK or pocket pair is no good anymore. But they'll think twice about putting there chips on the line when the raise substantial.
Nov 19, 2003 at 06:29 AM Quote Print
Fnord
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #7]
I followed lowlimitpoker's advise then I learned better. Need to get that pot up on good hands and keep lots of weak hands from seeing the flop.
However, I also disagree with always raising AA, KK and QQ. Never raise them in an early position because the two big bets (or more) to see a flop in will scare off weaker hands. The big 3 pairs hold up so well in multi-pots the more the merrier! Hopefully someone else will raise to scare off the blind and you can re-raise them back to build up a pot fit for a monster hand. The weaker hands are more likely to call the raise after they've already called the blinds.
Before raising pre flop here is my decision process:
o Would I be happy just taking the blinds? Am I attacking them or are there likely to be other hands playing?
o How likely is someone else to raise?
o Am I playing to get a big pot going or get a cheap peek at a flop?
Dec 03, 2003 at 02:43 AM Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #8]
Fnord,
Interesting post. I understand what you mean about raising in early position and scaring off weaker hands. I was just talking to a fellow poker player about that today. But we both agree that maybe we wouldn't raise as much as we would in late position. But we would still raise.
But I don't necessarily think that scaring off weaker hands is a bad thing.
I would not want to play those three hands multi-way. It depends on how much risk you are willing to take vs. the size of the pot. The question that comes to mind: do I want to win a small pot or lose a big pot?
I am happy winning any pot w/ very little risk.
If you know someone after you will raise, that is a completely different scenario, and I would need to know that for sure just to call with those monster hands.
A question for you, do you play limit or no-limit?
Dec 03, 2003 at 03:04 AM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #9]
Even in early position I think it is best to raise when holding hands like AA and KK. Sure you might scare people out but then again those could be the same people that could've gotten lucky on the river and stolen your pot.
One possible exception is when deception is more important than usual like a head-up scenario at the end of a tournament. This would be one of the few times I might slow play a monster hand like AA.
_________________________________
Dec 03, 2003 at 04:56 AM
ARCHIVE: Pre-flop raising
MagicMark
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Pre-flop raising [post #1]
Over at LowLimitHoldem.com there is an essay the gist of which is "don't raise pre-flop". apparently their game plan is to see the flop as cheaply as possible. The examples they use to illustrate this is a loose-passive, low-limit game.
They offer 2 points as "proof". That in such a loose-passive game, everyone will probably call anyway, and that "raising is contagious", so soon there will be alot of raises and the betting will be capped before the flop.
The 2nd point is that if you only bet with big hands (AA, KK, AKs, AQs), then you give up too much info to your opponents and someone who limps in might hit 2 pair and beat you. And then, if you start raising with lesser hands, others will start raising with lesser hands also, so you will lose control of the game.
Although I can understand the reasoning (based on the specific examples they quote) I have trouble agreeing with this conclusion. For example, I can see just calling with a strong hand in late position pre-flop, as a raise probably won't do any good. But I believe they should be played aggressively earlier.
Any thoughts?
-- Magic Mark
Nov 16, 2003 at 03:25 PM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #2]
I would have to disagree w/ their conclusions as well. Let's say that in this loose-passive game (which is the best game to be in for us), "everyone will call anyway". I'm assuming this is a Limit game - because in no-limit, you can absolutely lessen the playing field with a larger bet.
Ok, so in a low-stakes limit game, maybe everyone does call... is that so bad if you know you have the best hand at that point? The pot gets larger, even though your AA or KK is less likely to hold up, you are still an odds favorite to win the hand. You lose more often, but when you do win, the pot will more than make up for the previous losses.
Regarding the other point, rather than not raise w/ the big hands, it would be better to mix it up w/ raising randomly on good mulit-way hands - ie JT suited, QJ suited, maybe Ax suited, for example. Knowing that everyone will call, you will be getting good odds if you hit a flush draw or open-ended straight draw.
Finally, I don't believe that raising is contagious. If the table is loose-passive, the players are weak, they are going to play their weak game, and we need to take advantage of that.
I visited Commerce Casino here in Los Angeles this past Friday (11/14/2003). I played $2-4 limit holdem, exactly this kind of loose, passive table. In the other thread, I mentioned playing against a player who misplayed AA. There was another hand where I had KK. Pre-flop, the player to my right raised, I re-raised, he re-raised, I capped. 5 Players in the hand. The flop came 10, 8, 3 rainbow. Player on my right opened, I raised, he re-raised, I capped. I think 4 players stayed in. Turn was a 7. Player on my right opened, I raised, he called. Still 4 players. River was a Q. I opened, 1 folds, two call. I won the hand w/ KK. The player on my right was holding JJ. Needless to say, the pot was huge, I think over $50.
I think you are correct by doubting those particular conclusions on pre-flop raising. I think pre-flop raising is one of the key strategies that separates the weak player from the winning player.
Nov 16, 2003 at 08:02 PM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #3]
I disagree with their logic . I think that not raising pre-flop with AA is practically a sin. David Sklansky said in one of his holdem books that if you don't put the maximum amount of money in the pot pre-flop when you hold AA in a limit game then you have to ask yourself why you are playing the game.
_________________________________
Nov 17, 2003 at 01:04 AM Quote Print
MagicMark
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #4]
I can't figure out who this reply is going to, as there is only a single Reply button, and so I might be replying to myself!
But the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is to not bet strong hands on the theory it gives away too much info about your hand. I figure it is a GOOD thing to have these other players place me with a big hand. I want them to think twice if I raise, rather than automatically call. Once they've "learned" I bet big hands and they start to fold, I can then start raising with lesser hands.
At least that's my strategy.
-- MagicMark
Nov 17, 2003 at 04:41 AM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #5]
I think that is a very sound strategy and it'll probably pay off.
Nov 17, 2003 at 11:12 PM Quote Print
meng1
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #6]
I think anyone who doesn't believe in pre-flop raising must be smokin'. It is an essential part of a winning strategy. Especially in no limit, pre-flop raising not only pumps up the pot your going to take home, but also pushes out cards that may otherwise win.
For example, those players who like to limp in on any 2 suited or connected cards can flop the flush or straight. When that happens, your AK or pocket pair is no good anymore. But they'll think twice about putting there chips on the line when the raise substantial.
Nov 19, 2003 at 06:29 AM Quote Print
Fnord
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #7]
I followed lowlimitpoker's advise then I learned better. Need to get that pot up on good hands and keep lots of weak hands from seeing the flop.
However, I also disagree with always raising AA, KK and QQ. Never raise them in an early position because the two big bets (or more) to see a flop in will scare off weaker hands. The big 3 pairs hold up so well in multi-pots the more the merrier! Hopefully someone else will raise to scare off the blind and you can re-raise them back to build up a pot fit for a monster hand. The weaker hands are more likely to call the raise after they've already called the blinds.
Before raising pre flop here is my decision process:
o Would I be happy just taking the blinds? Am I attacking them or are there likely to be other hands playing?
o How likely is someone else to raise?
o Am I playing to get a big pot going or get a cheap peek at a flop?
Dec 03, 2003 at 02:43 AM Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #8]
Fnord,
Interesting post. I understand what you mean about raising in early position and scaring off weaker hands. I was just talking to a fellow poker player about that today. But we both agree that maybe we wouldn't raise as much as we would in late position. But we would still raise.
But I don't necessarily think that scaring off weaker hands is a bad thing.
I would not want to play those three hands multi-way. It depends on how much risk you are willing to take vs. the size of the pot. The question that comes to mind: do I want to win a small pot or lose a big pot?
I am happy winning any pot w/ very little risk.
If you know someone after you will raise, that is a completely different scenario, and I would need to know that for sure just to call with those monster hands.
A question for you, do you play limit or no-limit?
Dec 03, 2003 at 03:04 AM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #9]
Even in early position I think it is best to raise when holding hands like AA and KK. Sure you might scare people out but then again those could be the same people that could've gotten lucky on the river and stolen your pot.
One possible exception is when deception is more important than usual like a head-up scenario at the end of a tournament. This would be one of the few times I might slow play a monster hand like AA.
_________________________________
Dec 03, 2003 at 04:56 AM
ARCHIVE: Pre-flop raising
MagicMark
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Pre-flop raising [post #1]
Over at LowLimitHoldem.com there is an essay the gist of which is "don't raise pre-flop". apparently their game plan is to see the flop as cheaply as possible. The examples they use to illustrate this is a loose-passive, low-limit game.
They offer 2 points as "proof". That in such a loose-passive game, everyone will probably call anyway, and that "raising is contagious", so soon there will be alot of raises and the betting will be capped before the flop.
The 2nd point is that if you only bet with big hands (AA, KK, AKs, AQs), then you give up too much info to your opponents and someone who limps in might hit 2 pair and beat you. And then, if you start raising with lesser hands, others will start raising with lesser hands also, so you will lose control of the game.
Although I can understand the reasoning (based on the specific examples they quote) I have trouble agreeing with this conclusion. For example, I can see just calling with a strong hand in late position pre-flop, as a raise probably won't do any good. But I believe they should be played aggressively earlier.
Any thoughts?
-- Magic Mark
Nov 16, 2003 at 03:25 PM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #2]
I would have to disagree w/ their conclusions as well. Let's say that in this loose-passive game (which is the best game to be in for us), "everyone will call anyway". I'm assuming this is a Limit game - because in no-limit, you can absolutely lessen the playing field with a larger bet.
Ok, so in a low-stakes limit game, maybe everyone does call... is that so bad if you know you have the best hand at that point? The pot gets larger, even though your AA or KK is less likely to hold up, you are still an odds favorite to win the hand. You lose more often, but when you do win, the pot will more than make up for the previous losses.
Regarding the other point, rather than not raise w/ the big hands, it would be better to mix it up w/ raising randomly on good mulit-way hands - ie JT suited, QJ suited, maybe Ax suited, for example. Knowing that everyone will call, you will be getting good odds if you hit a flush draw or open-ended straight draw.
Finally, I don't believe that raising is contagious. If the table is loose-passive, the players are weak, they are going to play their weak game, and we need to take advantage of that.
I visited Commerce Casino here in Los Angeles this past Friday (11/14/2003). I played $2-4 limit holdem, exactly this kind of loose, passive table. In the other thread, I mentioned playing against a player who misplayed AA. There was another hand where I had KK. Pre-flop, the player to my right raised, I re-raised, he re-raised, I capped. 5 Players in the hand. The flop came 10, 8, 3 rainbow. Player on my right opened, I raised, he re-raised, I capped. I think 4 players stayed in. Turn was a 7. Player on my right opened, I raised, he called. Still 4 players. River was a Q. I opened, 1 folds, two call. I won the hand w/ KK. The player on my right was holding JJ. Needless to say, the pot was huge, I think over $50.
I think you are correct by doubting those particular conclusions on pre-flop raising. I think pre-flop raising is one of the key strategies that separates the weak player from the winning player.
Nov 16, 2003 at 08:02 PM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #3]
I disagree with their logic . I think that not raising pre-flop with AA is practically a sin. David Sklansky said in one of his holdem books that if you don't put the maximum amount of money in the pot pre-flop when you hold AA in a limit game then you have to ask yourself why you are playing the game.
_________________________________
Nov 17, 2003 at 01:04 AM Quote Print
MagicMark
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #4]
I can't figure out who this reply is going to, as there is only a single Reply button, and so I might be replying to myself!
But the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is to not bet strong hands on the theory it gives away too much info about your hand. I figure it is a GOOD thing to have these other players place me with a big hand. I want them to think twice if I raise, rather than automatically call. Once they've "learned" I bet big hands and they start to fold, I can then start raising with lesser hands.
At least that's my strategy.
-- MagicMark
Nov 17, 2003 at 04:41 AM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #5]
I think that is a very sound strategy and it'll probably pay off.
Nov 17, 2003 at 11:12 PM Quote Print
meng1
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #6]
I think anyone who doesn't believe in pre-flop raising must be smokin'. It is an essential part of a winning strategy. Especially in no limit, pre-flop raising not only pumps up the pot your going to take home, but also pushes out cards that may otherwise win.
For example, those players who like to limp in on any 2 suited or connected cards can flop the flush or straight. When that happens, your AK or pocket pair is no good anymore. But they'll think twice about putting there chips on the line when the raise substantial.
Nov 19, 2003 at 06:29 AM Quote Print
Fnord
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #7]
I followed lowlimitpoker's advise then I learned better. Need to get that pot up on good hands and keep lots of weak hands from seeing the flop.
However, I also disagree with always raising AA, KK and QQ. Never raise them in an early position because the two big bets (or more) to see a flop in will scare off weaker hands. The big 3 pairs hold up so well in multi-pots the more the merrier! Hopefully someone else will raise to scare off the blind and you can re-raise them back to build up a pot fit for a monster hand. The weaker hands are more likely to call the raise after they've already called the blinds.
Before raising pre flop here is my decision process:
o Would I be happy just taking the blinds? Am I attacking them or are there likely to be other hands playing?
o How likely is someone else to raise?
o Am I playing to get a big pot going or get a cheap peek at a flop?
Dec 03, 2003 at 02:43 AM Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #8]
Fnord,
Interesting post. I understand what you mean about raising in early position and scaring off weaker hands. I was just talking to a fellow poker player about that today. But we both agree that maybe we wouldn't raise as much as we would in late position. But we would still raise.
But I don't necessarily think that scaring off weaker hands is a bad thing.
I would not want to play those three hands multi-way. It depends on how much risk you are willing to take vs. the size of the pot. The question that comes to mind: do I want to win a small pot or lose a big pot?
I am happy winning any pot w/ very little risk.
If you know someone after you will raise, that is a completely different scenario, and I would need to know that for sure just to call with those monster hands.
A question for you, do you play limit or no-limit?
Dec 03, 2003 at 03:04 AM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #9]
Even in early position I think it is best to raise when holding hands like AA and KK. Sure you might scare people out but then again those could be the same people that could've gotten lucky on the river and stolen your pot.
One possible exception is when deception is more important than usual like a head-up scenario at the end of a tournament. This would be one of the few times I might slow play a monster hand like AA.
_________________________________
Dec 03, 2003 at 04:56 AM
ARCHIVE: Pre-flop raising
MagicMark
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Pre-flop raising [post #1]
Over at LowLimitHoldem.com there is an essay the gist of which is "don't raise pre-flop". apparently their game plan is to see the flop as cheaply as possible. The examples they use to illustrate this is a loose-passive, low-limit game.
They offer 2 points as "proof". That in such a loose-passive game, everyone will probably call anyway, and that "raising is contagious", so soon there will be alot of raises and the betting will be capped before the flop.
The 2nd point is that if you only bet with big hands (AA, KK, AKs, AQs), then you give up too much info to your opponents and someone who limps in might hit 2 pair and beat you. And then, if you start raising with lesser hands, others will start raising with lesser hands also, so you will lose control of the game.
Although I can understand the reasoning (based on the specific examples they quote) I have trouble agreeing with this conclusion. For example, I can see just calling with a strong hand in late position pre-flop, as a raise probably won't do any good. But I believe they should be played aggressively earlier.
Any thoughts?
-- Magic Mark
Nov 16, 2003 at 03:25 PM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #2]
I would have to disagree w/ their conclusions as well. Let's say that in this loose-passive game (which is the best game to be in for us), "everyone will call anyway". I'm assuming this is a Limit game - because in no-limit, you can absolutely lessen the playing field with a larger bet.
Ok, so in a low-stakes limit game, maybe everyone does call... is that so bad if you know you have the best hand at that point? The pot gets larger, even though your AA or KK is less likely to hold up, you are still an odds favorite to win the hand. You lose more often, but when you do win, the pot will more than make up for the previous losses.
Regarding the other point, rather than not raise w/ the big hands, it would be better to mix it up w/ raising randomly on good mulit-way hands - ie JT suited, QJ suited, maybe Ax suited, for example. Knowing that everyone will call, you will be getting good odds if you hit a flush draw or open-ended straight draw.
Finally, I don't believe that raising is contagious. If the table is loose-passive, the players are weak, they are going to play their weak game, and we need to take advantage of that.
I visited Commerce Casino here in Los Angeles this past Friday (11/14/2003). I played $2-4 limit holdem, exactly this kind of loose, passive table. In the other thread, I mentioned playing against a player who misplayed AA. There was another hand where I had KK. Pre-flop, the player to my right raised, I re-raised, he re-raised, I capped. 5 Players in the hand. The flop came 10, 8, 3 rainbow. Player on my right opened, I raised, he re-raised, I capped. I think 4 players stayed in. Turn was a 7. Player on my right opened, I raised, he called. Still 4 players. River was a Q. I opened, 1 folds, two call. I won the hand w/ KK. The player on my right was holding JJ. Needless to say, the pot was huge, I think over $50.
I think you are correct by doubting those particular conclusions on pre-flop raising. I think pre-flop raising is one of the key strategies that separates the weak player from the winning player.
Nov 16, 2003 at 08:02 PM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #3]
I disagree with their logic . I think that not raising pre-flop with AA is practically a sin. David Sklansky said in one of his holdem books that if you don't put the maximum amount of money in the pot pre-flop when you hold AA in a limit game then you have to ask yourself why you are playing the game.
_________________________________
Nov 17, 2003 at 01:04 AM Quote Print
MagicMark
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #4]
I can't figure out who this reply is going to, as there is only a single Reply button, and so I might be replying to myself!
But the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is to not bet strong hands on the theory it gives away too much info about your hand. I figure it is a GOOD thing to have these other players place me with a big hand. I want them to think twice if I raise, rather than automatically call. Once they've "learned" I bet big hands and they start to fold, I can then start raising with lesser hands.
At least that's my strategy.
-- MagicMark
Nov 17, 2003 at 04:41 AM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #5]
I think that is a very sound strategy and it'll probably pay off.
Nov 17, 2003 at 11:12 PM Quote Print
meng1
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #6]
I think anyone who doesn't believe in pre-flop raising must be smokin'. It is an essential part of a winning strategy. Especially in no limit, pre-flop raising not only pumps up the pot your going to take home, but also pushes out cards that may otherwise win.
For example, those players who like to limp in on any 2 suited or connected cards can flop the flush or straight. When that happens, your AK or pocket pair is no good anymore. But they'll think twice about putting there chips on the line when the raise substantial.
Nov 19, 2003 at 06:29 AM Quote Print
Fnord
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #7]
I followed lowlimitpoker's advise then I learned better. Need to get that pot up on good hands and keep lots of weak hands from seeing the flop.
However, I also disagree with always raising AA, KK and QQ. Never raise them in an early position because the two big bets (or more) to see a flop in will scare off weaker hands. The big 3 pairs hold up so well in multi-pots the more the merrier! Hopefully someone else will raise to scare off the blind and you can re-raise them back to build up a pot fit for a monster hand. The weaker hands are more likely to call the raise after they've already called the blinds.
Before raising pre flop here is my decision process:
o Would I be happy just taking the blinds? Am I attacking them or are there likely to be other hands playing?
o How likely is someone else to raise?
o Am I playing to get a big pot going or get a cheap peek at a flop?
Dec 03, 2003 at 02:43 AM Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #8]
Fnord,
Interesting post. I understand what you mean about raising in early position and scaring off weaker hands. I was just talking to a fellow poker player about that today. But we both agree that maybe we wouldn't raise as much as we would in late position. But we would still raise.
But I don't necessarily think that scaring off weaker hands is a bad thing.
I would not want to play those three hands multi-way. It depends on how much risk you are willing to take vs. the size of the pot. The question that comes to mind: do I want to win a small pot or lose a big pot?
I am happy winning any pot w/ very little risk.
If you know someone after you will raise, that is a completely different scenario, and I would need to know that for sure just to call with those monster hands.
A question for you, do you play limit or no-limit?
Dec 03, 2003 at 03:04 AM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #9]
Even in early position I think it is best to raise when holding hands like AA and KK. Sure you might scare people out but then again those could be the same people that could've gotten lucky on the river and stolen your pot.
One possible exception is when deception is more important than usual like a head-up scenario at the end of a tournament. This would be one of the few times I might slow play a monster hand like AA.
_________________________________
Dec 03, 2003 at 04:56 AM
ARCHIVE: Pre-flop raising
MagicMark
Status: Jr. Member
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Registered: Nov 13, 2003
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Pre-flop raising [post #1]
Over at LowLimitHoldem.com there is an essay the gist of which is "don't raise pre-flop". apparently their game plan is to see the flop as cheaply as possible. The examples they use to illustrate this is a loose-passive, low-limit game.
They offer 2 points as "proof". That in such a loose-passive game, everyone will probably call anyway, and that "raising is contagious", so soon there will be alot of raises and the betting will be capped before the flop.
The 2nd point is that if you only bet with big hands (AA, KK, AKs, AQs), then you give up too much info to your opponents and someone who limps in might hit 2 pair and beat you. And then, if you start raising with lesser hands, others will start raising with lesser hands also, so you will lose control of the game.
Although I can understand the reasoning (based on the specific examples they quote) I have trouble agreeing with this conclusion. For example, I can see just calling with a strong hand in late position pre-flop, as a raise probably won't do any good. But I believe they should be played aggressively earlier.
Any thoughts?
-- Magic Mark
Nov 16, 2003 at 03:25 PM Quote Print
ttanaka
Status: Administrator
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #2]
I would have to disagree w/ their conclusions as well. Let's say that in this loose-passive game (which is the best game to be in for us), "everyone will call anyway". I'm assuming this is a Limit game - because in no-limit, you can absolutely lessen the playing field with a larger bet.
Ok, so in a low-stakes limit game, maybe everyone does call... is that so bad if you know you have the best hand at that point? The pot gets larger, even though your AA or KK is less likely to hold up, you are still an odds favorite to win the hand. You lose more often, but when you do win, the pot will more than make up for the previous losses.
Regarding the other point, rather than not raise w/ the big hands, it would be better to mix it up w/ raising randomly on good mulit-way hands - ie JT suited, QJ suited, maybe Ax suited, for example. Knowing that everyone will call, you will be getting good odds if you hit a flush draw or open-ended straight draw.
Finally, I don't believe that raising is contagious. If the table is loose-passive, the players are weak, they are going to play their weak game, and we need to take advantage of that.
I visited Commerce Casino here in Los Angeles this past Friday (11/14/2003). I played $2-4 limit holdem, exactly this kind of loose, passive table. In the other thread, I mentioned playing against a player who misplayed AA. There was another hand where I had KK. Pre-flop, the player to my right raised, I re-raised, he re-raised, I capped. 5 Players in the hand. The flop came 10, 8, 3 rainbow. Player on my right opened, I raised, he re-raised, I capped. I think 4 players stayed in. Turn was a 7. Player on my right opened, I raised, he called. Still 4 players. River was a Q. I opened, 1 folds, two call. I won the hand w/ KK. The player on my right was holding JJ. Needless to say, the pot was huge, I think over $50.
I think you are correct by doubting those particular conclusions on pre-flop raising. I think pre-flop raising is one of the key strategies that separates the weak player from the winning player.
Nov 16, 2003 at 08:02 PM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #3]
I disagree with their logic . I think that not raising pre-flop with AA is practically a sin. David Sklansky said in one of his holdem books that if you don't put the maximum amount of money in the pot pre-flop when you hold AA in a limit game then you have to ask yourself why you are playing the game.
_________________________________
Nov 17, 2003 at 01:04 AM Quote Print
MagicMark
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #4]
I can't figure out who this reply is going to, as there is only a single Reply button, and so I might be replying to myself!
But the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is to not bet strong hands on the theory it gives away too much info about your hand. I figure it is a GOOD thing to have these other players place me with a big hand. I want them to think twice if I raise, rather than automatically call. Once they've "learned" I bet big hands and they start to fold, I can then start raising with lesser hands.
At least that's my strategy.
-- MagicMark
Nov 17, 2003 at 04:41 AM Quote Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #5]
I think that is a very sound strategy and it'll probably pay off.
Nov 17, 2003 at 11:12 PM Quote Print
meng1
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #6]
I think anyone who doesn't believe in pre-flop raising must be smokin'. It is an essential part of a winning strategy. Especially in no limit, pre-flop raising not only pumps up the pot your going to take home, but also pushes out cards that may otherwise win.
For example, those players who like to limp in on any 2 suited or connected cards can flop the flush or straight. When that happens, your AK or pocket pair is no good anymore. But they'll think twice about putting there chips on the line when the raise substantial.
Nov 19, 2003 at 06:29 AM Quote Print
Fnord
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #7]
I followed lowlimitpoker's advise then I learned better. Need to get that pot up on good hands and keep lots of weak hands from seeing the flop.
However, I also disagree with always raising AA, KK and QQ. Never raise them in an early position because the two big bets (or more) to see a flop in will scare off weaker hands. The big 3 pairs hold up so well in multi-pots the more the merrier! Hopefully someone else will raise to scare off the blind and you can re-raise them back to build up a pot fit for a monster hand. The weaker hands are more likely to call the raise after they've already called the blinds.
Before raising pre flop here is my decision process:
o Would I be happy just taking the blinds? Am I attacking them or are there likely to be other hands playing?
o How likely is someone else to raise?
o Am I playing to get a big pot going or get a cheap peek at a flop?
Dec 03, 2003 at 02:43 AM Print
ttanaka
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #8]
Fnord,
Interesting post. I understand what you mean about raising in early position and scaring off weaker hands. I was just talking to a fellow poker player about that today. But we both agree that maybe we wouldn't raise as much as we would in late position. But we would still raise.
But I don't necessarily think that scaring off weaker hands is a bad thing.
I would not want to play those three hands multi-way. It depends on how much risk you are willing to take vs. the size of the pot. The question that comes to mind: do I want to win a small pot or lose a big pot?
I am happy winning any pot w/ very little risk.
If you know someone after you will raise, that is a completely different scenario, and I would need to know that for sure just to call with those monster hands.
A question for you, do you play limit or no-limit?
Dec 03, 2003 at 03:04 AM Quote Print
Eric
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Re: Pre-flop raising [post #9]
Even in early position I think it is best to raise when holding hands like AA and KK. Sure you might scare people out but then again those could be the same people that could've gotten lucky on the river and stolen your pot.
One possible exception is when deception is more important than usual like a head-up scenario at the end of a tournament. This would be one of the few times I might slow play a monster hand like AA.
_________________________________
Dec 03, 2003 at 04:56 AM
