Why don't people hate Jaime Lannister?

No spoilers.

He bangs his sister, is a terrible father, and murders people in cold blood. Yet everybody loves him and many envy him.

This isn't about the show, but about how a character is so adored when those who adore him would loathe him if he lived down the street. He's probably my favorite of the main characters, yet I can't wrap my head around why I don't hate his guts for being a terrible person.

Is it because he's suave and handsome? Is it because we see his other side on a more intimate level? Is it because it's a show? I dunno. Thoughts?

people did hate him for the first couple of seasons. then he rolled with brienne of tarth and helped his brother. we def see more than one side of him which makes it easier to relate with.

willing suspension of disbelief

You accept that the reality presented in the show can be taken at its own value despite any mismatches with objective reality, because questioning the fictional reality makes fiction stories lame.

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Wait...
Is this a Game of Thrones question? Keep it in its own thread, sheesh.

Plenty of us don't need hyper-sexualized dramas for entertainment.
The the internet has that covered, and and you can get it without all that annoying drama.

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The basic rule of fantasy writing is to make the characters paragons of epic legend. So by appealing to our own sense of god-hood, they make us sympathize with those who represent a tangible struggle which we only face in our sensibilities.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Wait...
Is this a Game of Thrones question? Keep it in its own thread, sheesh.

Plenty of us don't need hyper-sexualized dramas for entertainment.
The the internet has that covered, and and you can get it without all that annoying drama.

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This isn't about the show. I'm using this character as a tool for a broader issue. This question has bugged me for a while. Though I think I have an answer to it.

I guess you're always looking for someone to identify with in a story. And since everyone is an ass, you turn to the normal sized straight male as the protagonist.

I feel like I can't do this properly without stickfigure animation and marimba music in the background.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Plenty of us don't need hyper-sexualized dramas for entertainment.
The the internet has that covered, and and you can get it without all that annoying drama.

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You sure you want to talk shit about GoT on this forum, you cancer Steven Seagal looking pony tail motherfucker? TWO CAN PLAY THIS GAME, BITCH.

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Originally Posted by oskar

You sure you want to talk shit about GoT on this forum

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You're upset because I said GoT is hyper-sexualized?
Interesting.
Are you suggesting that it's not?

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Originally Posted by oskar

you cancer sexy Steven Seagal looking pony tail motherfucker?

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No need to peacock it, man. You are safe here. You can admit that you find me sexy. I'm sure you're sexy, too.

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Originally Posted by oskar

TWO CAN PLAY THIS GAME, BITCH.

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I'm not sure what game this is, but I feel like I'm winning.

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Originally Posted by oskar

You sure you want to talk shit about GoT on this forum, you cancer Steven Seagal looking pony tail motherfucker? TWO CAN PLAY THIS GAME, BITCH.

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Mojo may have a ponytail, but without an eddie munster V at the front he ain't never gonna look like Sensei Seagal

Edit: he's prolly also at least 100lbs behind

http://i.imgur.com/ndHwXu1.gif

Because he's not boring.

My theory is it's presentation. The audience is shown only certain things and specific heart strings are pulled. Abstractions are too abstract.

He's a bad ass (was), he's hot, he's funny, he helped out the chick everyone liked, he helped out the brother everyone liked. Add them he lost his hand so he has received his comeuppance, meaning it's OK to like him now.

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Originally Posted by givememyleg

people did hate him for the first couple of seasons. then he rolled with brienne of tarth and helped his brother. we def see more than one side of him which makes it easier to relate with.

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True, I think people did hate him towards the beginning. Perception changed after we saw him help his brother and his daughter.

So, a guy who has done the good stuff Jaime has, like helping his cool brother when he's in a jam and hanging out with a cool athlete chick, but also banging his sis on the reg, lives right down the road. Is he still all cool beans?

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Originally Posted by rong

He's a bad ass (was), he's hot, he's funny, he helped out the chick everyone liked, he helped out the brother everyone liked. Add them he lost his hand so he has received his comeuppance, meaning it's OK to like him now.

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Pretty sure this is a spoiler. You just ruined it for me.

Why are we assuming that everyone likes Jamie lannister?

Sure, he's one of my favorite characters, but so was joffery. We gotta split this into two things.

1)is he an entertaining, fun to watch character? Yes.

2) would you want him as a friend? Uh, no.

3) should people act like jaime, and push little shits out windows? Maybe.

But if the question is whether I'm rooting for him or not...idk. it would appear his is a story of redemption, the bad guy turning good. But Martin likes fucking with expectations, so maybe jaime dies for no reason before being redeemed. Proven trope on the one hand, entertaining nonetheless on the other.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

So, a guy who has done the good stuff Jaime has, like helping his cool brother when he's in a jam and hanging out with a cool athlete chick, but also banging his sis on the reg, lives right down the road. Is he still all cool beans?

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No. But this is the GOT world where we have monsters like joffrey.

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Originally Posted by Eric

No. But this is the GOT world where we have monsters like joffrey.

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Ah I see. A world where we have intimate knowledge of people like Ted Bundy, where his type is common, is one where what we would consider normal indiscretions aren't necessarily.

It's plausible. People like Joffrey do exist in our world, but we don't really "know" them and they're not more commonly accepted; whereas in GoT, we do.

There's a psychological concept whereby if you dislike someone initially and then come round to liking them later, you like them a lot more than you would have if you'd just liked them initially.

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Originally Posted by rong

There's a psychological concept whereby if you dislike someone initially and then come round to liking them later, you like them a lot more than you would have if you'd just liked them initially.

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This is what I've been setting up for the first 23 years of my life.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Ah I see. A world where we have intimate knowledge of people like Ted Bundy, where his type is common, is one where what we would consider normal indiscretions aren't necessarily.

It's plausible. People like Joffrey do exist in our world, but we don't really "know" them and they're not more commonly accepted; whereas in GoT, we do.

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Right, I think the percentages are different. In GOT really nasty people make up a substantial percentage of the main characters. In our world people like Ted Bundy are a small percentage of the population.

Also I think there is a strong element of it really is "just a show." It's hard for me to reconcile how a guy who plows sis and RIPs cousin can be taken so lightly and even liked. It could be the fictional element is subconsciously powerful.

Not to mention The Mannis, a guy who burns his own daughter yet has me for a fan.

I don't know why this confuses you. People like villains and, more appropriately in Jaimie's case, anti-heroes. He's a great, compelling character, not a protagonist or good guy in any way, but fascinating, charismatic and skilled. He's had to make interesting life choices, suffered great personal losses and transformed into something entirely different than he was earlier in the show.

Most importantly, I think, we've learned quite a bit about what drives him. We've seen the various family dynamics that shaped him, and gotten his personal take on his defining moment. Perhaps the one truly heroic act of his life is the one that everyone derisively calls him "Kingslayer" for.

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Originally Posted by baudib

I don't know why this confuses you.

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It's because every explanation you gave is not a rationale people use when applied to real life. If your neighbor is a boy killing sister fucker, you're not going to care how charismatic or interesting his life choices are; you're just gonna hate him as is. Bridging that divide is what my question is about.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

It's because every explanation you gave is not a rationale people use when applied to real life. If your neighbor is a boy killing sister fucker, you're not going to care how charismatic or interesting his life choices are; you're just gonna hate him as is.

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Hey, wuf. Fiction isn't reality.

That's why we call reality

wait for it

non-fiction.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Bridging that divide is what my question is about.

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Dude, this took less than 30 seconds to find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aestheticization_of_violence


EDIT: 30 seconds later

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_%28psychology%29

re-EDIT: The gift that keeps on giving

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideali...nd_devaluation

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Hey, wuf. Fiction isn't reality.

That's why we call reality

wait for it

non-fiction.


Dude, this took less than 30 seconds to find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aestheticization_of_violence


EDIT: 30 seconds later

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_%28psychology%29

re-EDIT: The gift that keeps on giving

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideali...nd_devaluation

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The compartmentalization link is the closest is decent for this issue, but it's still about a technique used to deal with dissonance; whereas my concern is about why that dissonance exists in the first place.

Why do you think it is common for people to root for heroes in fiction that they would denounce and be horrified by in fact?

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

The compartmentalization link is the closest is decent for this issue, but it's still about a technique used to deal with dissonance; whereas my concern is about why that dissonance exists in the first place.

Why do you think it is common for people to root for heroes in fiction that they would denounce and be horrified by in fact?

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'Cause it's a story and the plot tells you who are the good guys and the bad guys and you go with it, 'cause otherwise the story is lame.

he's got true honor.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

It's because every explanation you gave is not a rationale people use when applied to real life. If your neighbor is a boy killing sister fucker, you're not going to care how charismatic or interesting his life choices are; you're just gonna hate him as is. Bridging that divide is what my question is about.

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The bold is mistaken. If you look at the people who are the most loved in "real life," then they've often done things on a similar level (or much "worse," though fucking your sister being wrong is subjective).

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

The bold is mistaken. If you look at the people who are the most loved in "real life," then they've often done things on a similar level (or much "worse," though fucking your sister being wrong is subjective).

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When we start talking fame, that's correct. Still, my question is the same: why is it that it's common for people to hold the famous to different standards than their neighbors?

How about this: what if Jaime was a boy fucker?

I think that would ruin him as a protagonist. Kid fucking is so off limits in our cultural psyche that it can't survive the cognitive dissonance. Why is that?

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

How about this: what if Jaime was a boy fucker?

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The difference is the mental picture one crime carries when compared to another. You say "boy fucker", everyone gets a very graphic, almost movie-like image of what is happening. Most find that sick.

You say murderer, we see that shit all the time and no real clear picture pops into our heads. Stabbing, gunshot, torture, drowning, the word is too vague to conjure up a strong mental image (assuming no one was witness to a murder recently...thatll likely pull up those images).

You're other claim, regarding not liking if your neighbor did it...im not so sure if thats the case. Suppose a stranger is convicted of extreme dui...you probably think "fuck that guy, coulda killed someone. Punish the shit outta him." Suppose now that your best friend calls you up, hes pretty blue, and he confesses to you that just finished drinking 12 beers and then drove home because his girlfriend left him. The difference is you know your best friend, you know what his life is like, so you feel remorse for him. You very likely dont treat his case the same as the stranger whom you knew nothing about.

Hell, many people would actually help their family/friends in getting away with a crime, even felonies.

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Originally Posted by JKDS

The difference is the mental picture one crime carries when compared to another. You say "boy fucker", everyone gets a very graphic, almost movie-like image of what is happening. Most find that sick.

You say murderer, we see that shit all the time and no real clear picture pops into our heads. Stabbing, gunshot, torture, drowning, the word is too vague to conjure up a strong mental image (assuming no one was witness to a murder recently...thatll likely pull up those images).

You're other claim, regarding not liking if your neighbor did it...im not so sure if thats the case. Suppose a stranger is convicted of extreme dui...you probably think "fuck that guy, coulda killed someone. Punish the shit outta him." Suppose now that your best friend calls you up, hes pretty blue, and he confesses to you that just finished drinking 12 beers and then drove home because his girlfriend left him. The difference is you know your best friend, you know what his life is like, so you feel remorse for him. You very likely dont treat his case the same as the stranger whom you knew nothing about.

Hell, many people would actually help their family/friends in getting away with a crime, even felonies.

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Excellent points, especially about the personal friend. The personal friend is a strong analogy for a fictional protagonist.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

When we start talking fame, that's correct. Still, my question is the same: why is it that it's common for people to hold the famous to different standards than their neighbors?

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It's not about fame by itself, it's about having respect for audacity and confidence (pre-requisites for fame in this sense). It's the same reason why a girl lets one guy treat her like total shit (while fucking her six ways from Sunday regularly) while she complains to the nice guy (who she denies sex).

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

If your neighbor is a boy killing sister fucker, you're not going to care how charismatic or interesting his life choices are; you're just gonna hate him as is.

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I dunno, if he's always got a fridge full of beer and a tin full of weed, and he's not tight, I can overlook certain flaws in a person. Is his sister fit? Did the boy deserve to be killed? Who am I to judge? Get me a beer and roll a spliff.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I dunno, if he's always got a fridge full of beer and a tin full of weed, and he's not tight, I can overlook certain flaws in a person. Is his sister fit? Did the boy deserve to be killed? Who am I to judge? Get me a beer and roll a spliff.

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Like, the entire first half of Gross Point Blank quotes fits well here.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Also I think there is a strong element of it really is "just a show." It's hard for me to reconcile how a guy who plows sis

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Why would you have problems with any consensual sex, sister or not, and why are the strong enough to qualify the act as evil? Is incest evil by its very nature? Your religious upbringing is rearing its head here, or you're trying to repress latent feelings for your sister. Might be both.

Your points might be stronger if you focus on the boy maiming/killing.

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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Why would you have problems with any consensual sex, sister or not, and why are the strong enough to qualify the act as evil? Is incest evil by its very nature? Your religious upbringing is rearing its head here, or you're trying to repress latent feelings for your sister. Might be both.

Your points might be stronger if you focus on the boy maiming/killing.

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The question is in the context of what other people think. Most people think incest is gross and wrong and if Jim Bob and his sis Sally Jo from down the street were bangin, most people would think only negative things about them.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

Most people think incest is gross and wrong

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Random fun fact, but over 10 percent of adults in the US have engaged in sexual contact with a parent, sibling or first cousin when both people involved consented.

I don't agree with lumping in cousins with siblings and parents. If you ask how many have fucked their siblings as adults you'll get a different number. Sexual contact is a pretty broad term as well.

HAImee luhNISSter

lol

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Originally Posted by oskar

I don't agree with lumping in cousins with siblings and parents. If you ask how many have fucked their siblings as adults you'll get a different number. Sexual contact is a pretty broad term as well.

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Not attracted to any immediate family, but I have some hot ass cousins. Problem is though that they're the Pacific Northwest's version of hillbilly. I'm pretty sure I saw one of them lusty mouth-kiss her nephew at a reunion. That clan has always been a bunch of fucking weirdos.

I have smokin hot cousins. One is a bollywood actress too, so she can shake her shit.

The new season of GOT starts on Sunday! Should we make a new thread or bump an existing one?