This is the thread for the NLHE Foundations #06: Putting Opponents on Pre-Flop Ranges (Part 3).
The topic is putting players on calling ranges pre-flop.
Post your homework in this thread and ask for help if you need it.
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This is the thread for the NLHE Foundations #06: Putting Opponents on Pre-Flop Ranges (Part 3).
The topic is putting players on calling ranges pre-flop.
Post your homework in this thread and ask for help if you need it.
Villain: 30/26/16
Notes for hands villain calls w/;
55, QJs, MP vs EP
22, LP vs EP
77, T9s, LP vs MP
66, 99, 87s, blinds vs EP
22, blinds vs MP
22, 55, 66(2), 99, A9s, A6s, KQs, Q7s, 98s, 83s, AQo, AJo, A9o, A7o, KJo, JTo(2), blinds vs LP
Ranges
MP vs EP: 3bet Range - TT+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo
MP vs EP - Villain's calling range might look something like; 99-22, QTs+, JTs
LP vs EP: 3bet Range - 77+,A6s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+, JTo.
LP vs EP - One hand so hard to judge. Calling range might look like; 22-99, A2s-A5s. I know that I included 77-99 in villain's previous 3bet range but as I have broken his calling range down villain appears to have a tendency to just call with 99 and below so I have moved those hands into his calling range.
Blinds vs EP: 3bet Range - 77+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,A8o+,KTo+,QT o+,JTo
Blinds vs EP - . Calling range; 22-99, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s. As we can see, villain may have a tendency to just flat w/ SCs and not 3bet as I had earlier assumed.
LP vs MP: 3bet Range - 77+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A8o+,KTo+,Q To+,JTo
LP vs MP - Calling range; 22-99, A2s-A5s, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s.
Blinds vs MP: 3bet Range - 77+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,75s,A8o+,KT o+,QTo+,J9o+,T9o,98o,86o+,75o
Blinds vs MP - Hard to judge again. Calling range; 22-99, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s.
Blinds vs LP: 3bet Range - 55+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s, A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo,T8o+,97o+,86o+,75o+,65o
Blinds vs LP - . OK so his calling range just destroys the range I placed him on for his 3betting. Calling range; 22-99, A2s-AJs, KJs+, Q5s-QJs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, A2o-AQo, KJo+, QTo+, JTo.
After analyzing villain's calling range I can see that I was way off to assume that villain 3bet medium pairs, Axs and SCs. It appears that villain prefers to call with these kinds of hands which leads me to this question; what kinds of hands is he 3betting with? How much wider can I go than the original 3bet range? Is he calling with SCs and 3betting S1Gs and S2Gs?
I felt like I was getting a good handle on villain's range and now I feel confused. Also, apologies for formatting of post. I understand it might be hard to read but I'm unsure how else to lay it out.
A few points I want to make here that probably applies to everyone:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_1878
1. Looking at his calling range will give you new insight into his 3-betting range (and vice versa), and that's a big reason why I suggest players think about both in tandem.
2. The formatting of the post is fine. It's there for people who want to go over other examples besides their own, but I really don't expect everyone to go over every single post in detail. The point is that you're working through it and experiencing the process of breaking down these ranges. If you do this enough, then you'll get really good at it with a higher accuracy and a faster time. Now when you analyze a hand, you can break down what you really think your opponent's pre-flop range is.
Yeah, I'm realising that now. That's a really good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I have been playing about with ranges; opening ranges and then adjusting them to how often they fold to 3bets and what their continuing range might look like.
I think once I wrap my head around it it will be really useful, I'm struggling to remember it all when I'm playing atm though; I expect it will become more natural with more practice and experience.
You're not really ever going to be able to remember all of this stuff at the table. However, your in-depth study will give you a better feeling for it at the tables, and you won't have to think about it in such detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_1878
To give an example, think about a baby taking his first steps. He's very choppy and doesn't make it far because he has to think about every individual thing his body is doing. When it becomes all about feel, however, you're able to walk while chewing gum, talking on the phone and scratching your ass while thinking about what you want for dinner. And that comes from a lot of in-depth practice where you're thinking about the details.
Blinds vs LP - . OK so his calling range just destroys the range I placed him on for his 3betting. Calling range; 22-99, A2s-AJs, KJs+, Q5s-QJs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, A2o-AQo, KJo+, QTo+, JTo.
@spoonitnow
Should I call with 22-77 in the blinds if someone makes a raise from the CO or BTN?
I normally tend to 3bet them or just to fold, because I don't think so that it is wort here to setmine.
However if it's a fun player or an agressive player I also call. But most people make there Cbet on the flop, but don't commit there stack when I hit my set in this particular situation because they just wanted to steal - so I feel like I don't have the implied odds to setmine with these small pocketpairs.
In my personal opinion, it's fine to fold small pairs in this type of situation, though I'm sure there are some who will disagree with me. I'd much rather call with hands like broadways, suited aces, A9-A7, etc. that can make pairs that will maintain their equity through a hand and pick off c-bets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursu7it
Bonus Homework Question:
You open raise from the HJ position, and a tight/aggressive player on the button quickly calls with QQ when both of the blinds are non-descript tight/aggressive players. The button has a 3-bet rate of nine percent. What does that tell you about this player?
Is a non-descript player something like a standard player ?
I would say that he is balancing his range (or he wants that one of the blinds squeeze?)
Yes, I just mean a player where nothing unusual stands out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursu7it
So what do you think his play says about his range? Why is he 3-betting so much but calling with QQ in a situation where a lot of players would 3-bet more than average?
Maybe that he has polarized 3-Betting Range, however he excludes JJ and QQ for value?
Maybe he thinks we only continue to 3bets w/ a really tight range and wants to keep in more of our range that he crushes.Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
His 3bet range probably contains more bluffs than value hands.
Ding ding ding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursu7it
Knowing he calls with QQ there tells you a lot about the structure of his 3-betting range.
Well, this was a fun thing to do. In the range pics you can see how he/she is merging vs early positions, and how he shifts to a polarized range vs late positions.
This is his calling range:
1. MP vs EP: QQ, TT, 88, 55, KTs, JTs, T9s, 97s, AKo, AQo, AJo, ATo
2. LP vs EP: QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 66, ATs, KQs, KJs, QJs, QTs, J9s, 97s, AQo, KQo
3. SB vs EP: 99, AKo, AQo
4. BB vs EP: QQ, JJ, 88, AQo
5. LP vs MP: JJ, 88, AJs, ATs, A9s, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, KQo, QJo, QTo
6. SB vs MP: JJ, 88, 66, 22, JTs, AJo, KTo
7. BB vs MP: JJ, 77, AKo, AJo
8. SB vs LP: 77, 66, 55, AQs, AJs, ATs, 76s, AKo, AQo, KQo, QJo
9. BB vs LP: A5s, QTs, 97s, 76s, AQo, AJo, A9o, KQo, KTo
10. BB vs SB: 44, AQs, ATs, A8s, 97s, AQo, AJo
If i put it together with his 3betting range, it looks like this:
(Green: 3bet. Purple: cold call. Yellow: both)
1. MP vs EP: https://i.gyazo.com/c231fb7f60f48e09...c08c30ff61.png
2. LP vs EP: https://i.gyazo.com/a8035f82187e2869...fe6f62e247.png
3. SB vs EP:https://i.gyazo.com/199254faee47ea05...a83fa65929.png
4. BB vs EP:https://i.gyazo.com/7e315c1ff00fe3e2...f0c3938f7c.png
5. LP vs MP: https://i.gyazo.com/c42170f3ddea05b3...71bdc8efd3.png
6. SB vs MP:https://i.gyazo.com/58d7aac0ec321ebc...0718058111.png
7. BB vs MP:https://i.gyazo.com/d625d68695ebcfed...1231226d98.png
8. SB vs LP: https://i.gyazo.com/3b991df842f601d9...f266c26a23.png
9. BB vs LP: https://i.gyazo.com/b1334fb22d762664...f7f3dc740d.png
10. BB vs SB: https://i.gyazo.com/f39e2548d4877b47...c927d12bc0.png
That's a very good job there, and the point about having a merged (or just depolarized) 3-betting range against EP players is a common trend. It normally reflects the idea that EP players have stronger ranges and fold less, so 3-bet bluffs are less profitable against them. A number of players have taken advantage of this tendency at low stakes by opening up their EP ranges more than players would expect.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarinaD
villain stats
VPIP: 24
PFR: 15
AF: 3
3Bet: 4.2
ATS: 41
so a general overview of the hands i found were:
MP vs EP: A6o, AJo, AKo, J9s, K8s, AKs, 88
LP vs EP: A7s, K7s, AKo, AJo, JTs
LP vs MP: 55+, A6s+, Q8s+, J6s+, K8s+, 65s, KTo+, A6o+, T3s,
Blinds vs EP: A7s+, AJo+, KJo+, 77+, J9s, T7s,
Blinds vs MP: A5o+, KTo+, QJo+, 33+, 67s, J8s+
Blinds vs LP: 33+, K3s+, J4s+, JTo+ A3o+, A2s+, Q4s+, QTo+, Q4o, K9o+ 53s
Blind vs Blind: 33+ A2s+ Q2o+, A4o+ QJs, J9o+ JTs+
so i would extrapolate these to look something like the following:
MP vs EP: 99-66, A7s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, A6o+, KJo+, QJo
LP vs EP: 55-99, A5s+, K7s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A8o+, KJo+, QJo
LP vs MP: 22-99, A2s+, K5s+, Q6s+, J6s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, A5o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo
Blinds vs EP: TT-77, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+
Blinds vs MP: TT-33, A4s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, A8o+, KJo+
Blinds vs LP: TT-22, A2s+, K3s+, Q7s+, J9s+, T9s, A3o+, KJo+
Blind vs Blind: 33+ A2s+?????
for the BvB i dont have many hands that went to showdown, it sort of seems like his calling range is very tight. is this normal? does this mean hes raise/folding a lot?
how does this look in general anyway? am i headed in the right direction?
siriusisness, you're doing great.
Everyone else, I want to see more people answering this one and #7 before I post anything else for this series.
Villain
VPIP 19 PFR 13 ATS 27 FTS 75 3BET 2.5
Hands on villain
66, EP v EP:: AQ, LP v LP
AQ, EP v EP:: 77, SB v MP
AT, MP v EP:: QT, SB v LP
KQ, MP v EP:: A7s, SB v LP
44, MP v MP:: AT, SB v EP
ATs, MP v MP:: 99, SB v EP
JTs, MP v EP:: KJ, SB v LP
AJ, MP v EP:: 77, BB v MP
77, MP v MP:: AJ, BB v EP
AK, MP v EP:: QT, BB v EP
33, MP v EP:: KJ, BB v LP
KQ, LP v MP:: AJs, BB v MP
AQ, LP v MP:: QTs, BB v MP
QQ, LP v MP:: 53s, BB v LP
33, LP v EP:: TT, BB v SB
JT, LP V EP:: JTs, BB v LP
AT, LP v LP:: AQ, BB v MP
22, LP v MP:: JJ, BB v LP
32s, LP v EP:: A5, BB v SB
66, LP v LP:: 97s, BB v MP
TT, LP v EP:: 98s, BB v EP
22, LP v MP:: JTs, BB v EP
KJ, LP v LP:: 86s, BB v LP
66, LP V EP:: 75s, LP v MP
QJs, LP v EP:: 54s, BB v MP
88, LP v EP:: T8s, SB V MP
AQ, LP v MP:: 75s, LP v EP
55, LP v EP:: K7s, BB v MP
22, LP v EP
KQ, LP v LP
T8s, LP V LP
Calling Range of Villain,
MP v EP: TT-33,AQs-A6s,KTs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,A9o+,KJo+
LP v EP: TT-22,AQs-A5s,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,43 s,32s,AQo-A9o,KJo+,QJo,JTo,T9o
LP v MP: QQ,TT-22,AQs-A2s,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,43 s,32s,AQo-A9o,KTo+,QJo,JTo,T9o,98o
Blinds v EP: TT-22,AQs-A7s,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,AQo-ATo,KJo+,QTo+,JTo
Blinds v MP: TT-22,AQs-A5s,K7s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,AQo-ATo,KJo+,QJo
Blinds v LP: JJ-22,AQs-A4s,K7s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,53s+,4 3s,AQo-A8o,KJo+,QTo+,JTo
Villain is calling alot of hands especially against LP raises which includes many speculative suited gapped connectors, am i right in thinking that 3 betting this player in position would be profitable considering there are many weaker hands in his calling range or would we need to look further into his fold to three bet, his three bet range is JJ+
I like the promo - I'll get to work! I've been waiting a bit because I had 1k HH's plus on only 1 villain when I started, but I have been doing Spoon-inspired work in my old op thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
MP vs EP = AJs, QQ, 88
LP vs EP = AQs, TT, 77, 66
Blinds vs EP = 66, TT, AKo, AQo, AJs, ATs
LP vs MP = J9s, 66, 99, JJ, QQ, KQo
Blinds vs MP = 44, 88, JJ, KJs
Blinds vs LP = 44, 66, 77, 99, TT, J9o, J9s, J8s, Q8s, Q6s, KJs, AQo, AKs, A4s
Assigning ranges seems quite difficult because they overlap a lot
1) MP vs EP Range = TT-88,ATs,KJs-KTs,QTs+,AJo-ATo,KJo+
2) LP vs EP = TT-66,A9s,KJs-K9s,Q9s+,J9s,ATo,KTo+,QTo+
3) Blinds vs EP = TT-66,A9s,KJs-K9s,Q9s+,J9s,ATo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
4) LP vs MP = TT-66,A9s,KJs-K9s,Q9s+,J9s,ATo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
5) Blinds vs MP = 99-44,A9s,K9s,Q9s,J9s,KTo,QTo,JTo
6) Blinds vs LP = 99-22,K9s-K7s,Q9s-Q7s,J9s-J8s,T8s+,ATo-A9o,KTo,QTo,JTo
note: 2-4 are nearly the same ranges
Stats:
MP vs EP Range = 7%
LP vs EP = 10%
Blinds vs EP = 11%
LP vs MP = 10%
Blinds vs MP = 4.5% (really surprised me but I double checked the number)
Blinds vs LP = 12%
Question: Is it correct that 3bet and calling ranges increase in the order given above? Exception given Blinds above.
ranges are always a hard thing to get correct let alone with a small sample size, if its the same person as the three betting analysis you did its interesting to see QQ comes uo in his LP call range, so his stat of 6.6 3bet must include more three bet bluffs and 4 betting this player wider than we might normally would would be a good idea. maybe his calling range in the blinds would be 99-22 versus all raises, i dont seem him folding 22 if he is calling J9sQuote:
Originally Posted by ErnieohneBert
Yes the calling range out of blinds really surprised me aswell because its so low in comparison to BB.Quote:
Originally Posted by doddly10
In theory it might be a good idea to call more tightly in SB because the BB gets amazing odds and we're getting sandwhiched.
Villain is VPIP = 23%, PFR = 16%, AF = 1.4, Raise First In = 26%, ATS = 36%, Fold to ATS = 73%, 3bet = 4%, 3bet vs. steal = 3%, and Fold to 3bet = 66%.
His 3betting by position is 3% in MP, CO, SB and BB and 7% BTN. He seems to only 3bet QQ+, AK and AQs except on the button.
Button: CC 25%, 3bet 7%
We have seen the following 2bet cold calls: (vs. EP) 87s, Q7s, QJs, QTs, QJs, KJs, AJo (vs.LP) QTs
We have only seen 3bets with AK, AA
We estimate the following based his liking for suited cards, pp’s and broadways (doesn’t seem to play Axs or sc’s as much). We also don’t have evidence he’s tighter vs. EP than MP or CO.
BTN CC Range: 22-88, A2s-A7s, A7o-AJo, K8o, KQo, K5s-KTs, Q9o-QJo, Q7s+, J9+, T9, J8s, T8s, 98s
BTN 3bet Range: A8s+, AQ+, 99+, KJs+
_____
Cutoff: CC 13%, 3bet 3%
We have seen the following: (vs. EP/MP) 22, 44 JTs JJ KTs. The pp’s are a bit surprising.
CO CC Range: 22-JJ, A6s+, AT+, KQ, KJ any suited BW, K9s
CO 3bet Range: QQ+, AK, AQs
_____
MP: CC 13%, 3bet 3%
We have only one showdown from MP, a flat call with AKs. He’s either 3betting less than 3%, misclicked, has some read on EP and changes it up, or he’s flat calling with some premium hands and adding things like ATs, AQ into the 3bet range. I think he’s tightening up vs. UTG.
MP CC Range: Range: 22-JJ, A6s+, AT+, KQ, KJ any suited BW, K9s
CO 3bet Range: QQ+, AK, AQs
His calling/3betting ranges seem pretty equivalent comparing CO to MP. There’s no evidence he’s playing a wider range (or different range) in the CO except the AKs flat call.
_____
BB: CC 25%, 3bet 3%
We have seen the following: (vs. EP) AK, (vs. LP) 77, T6s, JT, QJ, QJs, A7, AT, AJs, (vs. SB) 66, K4s, K8s
There’s a hand where he cold called a 3bet (smallish) with TT. Here we have another AKo flatted vs. EP, so his 3bet% is probably tighter vs. UTG. Finally, the T6s vs. LP is significantly weaker than his normal range. So I’m creating tiered ranges here.
BB CC Range vs. EP: 22-JJ, A6s+, AT+, A8s, KQ, KJ any suited BW, K9s
BB 3bet Range vs. EP: QQ+
BB CC Range vs. LP: 22-88, A2s-A7s, A7o-AJo, any 2 suited 6+, K8o, KQo, K5s, Q9+, J9+, T9
BB 3bet Range vs. LP: QQ+, AK, AQs
SB: CC 9%, 3bet 3%
We have seen the following: (vs. EP) 55, A8s, (vs. LP) K7s, AJ, AQ
It’s odd that he would have such a small CC% and have both 55 and A8s. It does appear that he loosens up vs. LP, but 9% overall doesn’t give us much room for hands like 55 and K7s.
SB CC vs. EP range: 55-JJ, AT, A8s+, KTs+, JTs
SB 3bet vs. EP range: QQ+, AK, AQs
SB CC vs. LP range: 44-JJ, AT, A7s+, any 2 BW, any 2 suited 7+
SB 3bet vs. LP range: QQ+, AK, AQs
_____
What I’ve learned:
1. He likes big cards, suited cards, and pp’s. He plays hands like Q9s where I would prefer 87s, and 22-55 where I would probably fold.
2. Interesting: he has twice overbet the flop (1.1 x pot) with overpairs KK and AA after 3bet action pre. Nice read for when I flop 2pair+.
3. He trends passive postflop but bets his sets and 2pair right out, either cbet or donk.
4. He likes to peel with hands like 44 vs. cbet flops, even those with one high card.
5. Otherwise, he’s pretty much fit or fold post.
6. His ranges are NOT polarized. He 3bets premiums, calls the next best hands, and folds the rest.
villain 28/23/ Cold call 13 3bet :7.3
His range cold call when IP {22,33,44,77,99,TT,AJ, KTs,KQ,AT,87s,98s,QTs,JTs,KJ,A8o,J9s,65s,T8s,97s}
-> i ve learn:
he like Cold call with all pairs(<QQ), Broadways suited,AJ,KQ,SCs and sometime ATo when he on BTN vs CO open
he like cold call when in BB vs SB with: A8o+,22+,Scs,K8o+,All broadways,86s->J9s,KJs.
HIs range cold call when OOP {22-TT,AQ,KJs,JTs,54s+,A8o+,J9s,JT,KQ,T9,ATs}
i think his cold call when on blinds vs EP :{AQ+,88-JJ sometime QQ,JTs,KJs,KQs,ATs.A5s,A9s} ( he seem like 3bet AK+,KK.AA most of time but some time 3bet QQ, sometime call when blinds vs EP}
Big blinds vs BTN:{22-99,A7o+,Boardways but not AJ,AQ,KQ(he like 3bet this hand when BB vs LP), anycard two card >9, 54s+,75s+,A8s-ATs,QJs,JTs,KJs,}
This looks good. Make sure you think about what his basic stats look like and how this relates to these things you've discovered about how he plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by othd13