PFR Sizing Question - good adjustment?

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10-28-2013, 12:07 AM
Robb

PFR Sizing Question - good adjustment?
Getting back into poker after 15 months, I've got a tiny br on Black Chip and am playing 2NL 6-max. Table VPiP's are usually 40% or higher, often 50%. Tons of limping and plenty of players willing to stick some chips in. So, soft games.

But I wasn't beating them. Tons of multiway pots, getting 3bet a lot for these stakes. After breaking even for 8k hands, I decided to adjust my open-raises, increasing them 1BB in all positions. Before, I was opening:

EP - 4BB
MP - 3BB
CO - 3BB
BTN - 2BB
SB - 3BB

I changed to:

EP - 5BB
MP - 4BB
CO - 4BB
BTN - 3BB
SB - 4BB

Of course, I immediately went on a heater, so I'm not sure of the impact, yet. Trying not be results oriented. Here's my thought process:
1. I'm playing tight, 21/17 over last 8k hands. I'm getting to a lot flops with TPGK and overpair hands, but those hands work best heads up.
2. My cbets on the flop and turn weren't ever getting anyone to fold. I was getting rivered a lot by hands I felt should have folded to 2-barrels. If I open-raise more, my cbets look stronger, too.
3. I was getting 3bet a ton. Small open-raises do encourage action, but playing tight I was mainly folding to 3bets without a Top 5% hand. I thought a larger open-raise might discourage the 3bet monkeys.
4. If they aren't folding enough, that's a good problem, right? If I bet more, I'll still get action and have larger pots. Positionally I'm 10/10 EP, 12/11 MP, 22/20 CO and 33/28 BTN, I feel like I typically have a pretty strong rage, or position, or both.
5. If I get to a point where my cbets are working, I can begin cbetting more successfully when the flop smacks my range, but misses my actual cards. At the moment, I hate cbetting AK-air because no one's folding to a cbet, and not many are folding to a 2-barrel either.
Am I off target here? Does this seem reasonable? Are there factors I haven't considered, and should? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
10-28-2013, 06:51 AM
The Bean Counter

I would personally play tighter pre at 2nl, something in the region of 18/15 and 3% 3bet. I should think that would make your new sizing much more profitable too.

I'd also be cbetting only for value or semi-bluff and sizing big for fat value. Sometimes you're going to get rivered, but playing elegant poker isn't the way to beat these stakes, as the majority of players don't really see things in terms of pot odds or implied odds.
10-28-2013, 09:08 AM
abelardx

I've played these games. They can be a lot of fun. IMO there is no need to 3-bet light at all, only for value. Other players might be doing it but it's probably not helping them.

The main difference between 2 nl and 5 or 10 is that you can get away with really obvious bet sizing tells at 2 nl. BlackRain makes this point in his book and I've found it to be true. If you have a long shot hand, like a suited connector or weak suited ace, limp behind. If you have broadway make a normal raise. If you have QQ+ or AK raise 5-10x. You will still get callers. If you have AA and someone's already raised, you can just open shove and still get called. That won't happen at other stakes.
10-28-2013, 10:30 AM
OngBonga

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bean Counter

I would personally play tighter pre at 2nl, something in the region of 18/15 and 3% 3bet. I should think that would make your new sizing much more profitable too.

I'd also be cbetting only for value or semi-bluff and sizing big for fat value. Sometimes you're going to get rivered, but playing elegant poker isn't the way to beat these stakes, as the majority of players don't really see things in terms of pot odds or implied odds.

Agree witht this. Tighten up your raising range, bet for value or semibluff with reasonable equity. I can happily limp behind with small pairs and suited connectors at 2nl because we can expect to see plenty of flops and get paid off by top pair hands much more frequently when we bink a monster.
10-28-2013, 12:26 PM
BorisTheSpider

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

[*]I'm playing tight, 21/17 over last 8k hands. I'm getting to a lot flops with TPGK and overpair hands, but those hands work best heads up.

Agreed that you want to bet bigger with your decent hands to get HU when you make TPGK/Overpair etc. I don't mind your new open sizes. I would say that 21/17 is probably nowhere near tight enough at 2NL - I have played a little 2NL recently and I was surprised just how tough it seemed to make any money even playing a "tight" game, because so many pots go multiway, I think you need to really nit it up and something like 16/14 is probably much more profitable. In fact, playing like 18/13 is probably good, as in, calling IP with drawing hands when it is multiway (and an attempted isolation raise will just bloat the pot because everyone will call), and opening _very_ tight, especially UTG/HJ. In fact, if the button was loose passive and didn't like to fold postflop either, I'd probably just nit up the cutoff as well.

Feel free to loosen up a ton on the button, position is so valuable, you can probably still open say 35% there even if the blinds are massive stations.

Quote:

[*]My cbets on the flop and turn weren't ever getting anyone to fold. I was getting rivered a lot by hands I felt should have folded to 2-barrels. If I open-raise more, my cbets look stronger, too.

Perfect - no-one folds postflop, so bet big for value, and give up when you miss.

Quote:

[*]I was getting 3bet a ton. Small open-raises do encourage action, but playing tight I was mainly folding to 3bets without a Top 5% hand. I thought a larger open-raise might discourage the 3bet monkeys.

Opening smaller is a better way to deal with a loose 3bettor on your left (although moving tables is even better). If you open smaller, there is less for them to win when you fold, and they either risk more with their bluffs when they 3bet you to a "normal" size (eg. 9bb), or they 3bet smaller and have to give you better implied odds (if you're deep enough) to call with stuff like PPs hoping to hit a set.

Quote:

[*]If they aren't folding enough, that's a good problem, right? If I bet more, I'll still get action and have larger pots. Positionally I'm 10/10 EP, 12/11 MP, 22/20 CO and 33/28 BTN, I feel like I typically have a pretty strong rage, or position, or both.

These positional stats sound good, so maybe what I said above about your overall stats seeming a little loose was wrong.

Quote:

[*]If I get to a point where my cbets are working, I can begin cbetting more successfully when the flop smacks my range, but misses my actual cards. At the moment, I hate cbetting AK-air because no one's folding to a cbet, and not many are folding to a 2-barrel either.

If people are massively stationing, then yeah, cbetting too much is bad. You can cbet thinner for value though, so even AK might fit into that category sometimes, but generally it's probably better to be cbetting like TT on Q82 if people are stationing middle pair, or cbetting weaker made hands on drawy boards where people will call you down without odds to draw.
10-28-2013, 03:32 PM
OngBonga

Quote:

I would say that 21/17 is probably nowhere near tight enough at 2NL - I have played a little 2NL recently and I was surprised just how tough it seemed to make any money even playing a "tight" game, because so many pots go multiway, I think you need to really nit it up and something like 16/14 is probably much more profitable.

This is why I try to limp my pairs and s-connectors. We get some cheap flops with lots of implied odds, especially since people have much more difficulty folding top pair and draws, and sometimes junk like 99 on AK4xx will tag along for stacks. If we expect most flops to be 3way or more, then we shouldn't be playing for top pair hands, we should be playing for overpairs, sets, straights and flushes, and punishing hard villain's inability to fold.
10-28-2013, 03:47 PM
Keith

is dumbfounded at the advice about nitting it up for experienced players dropping down to 2nl. We can hand read, we can get really fat value, we can recognize when we are beat and fold a street early , we can approximate roughly how much equity we have ,. we can spot and exploit opponents leaks.why rob ourselves of the chance to use those skills?

Having said that , if you are learning/relearning the game , then yeah nit it up , and learn how to use those skills with a strong hand range.for those thinking he doesn't know what it like , i've done a mini challenge the last few days 11k hands 10 tabling 2nl FR tables at stars playing 30/23 8% 3bet 12% 4bet with a 34.7bb/100 winrate.
10-28-2013, 04:06 PM
BorisTheSpider

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith

is dumbfounded at the advice about nitting it up for experienced players dropping down to 2nl. We can hand read, we can get really fat value, we can recognize when we are beat and fold a street early , we can approximate roughly how much equity we have ,. we can spot and exploit opponents leaks.why rob ourselves of the chance to use those skills?

Maybe I should play some more 2NL - your recent minichallenge stats are very impressive. I find it hard to handread when the players are so passive and such stations - a call can mean almost anything, from bare overs to a monster.
10-28-2013, 04:23 PM
Keith

thats the point though , marginal hands we bet smaller, we pot control and they CALL or slowplay with their monsters. they don't get the value for their hand, we are playing for stacks with our monsters and the really fat value and massive winrates come from getting stacks with our monsters.I posted this hand in Robb's blog but it demonstrates what i mean. This was a full ring table where i'd allready taken a stack off villain and
villain is now 67/33 50% 3bet over 18 6 handed hands.

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5 (250 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.87 (543.5 bb)
MP: $3.96 (198 bb)
CO: $6.95 (347.5 bb)
BTN: $2 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 4http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif
MP calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.07) 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 4http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif 4http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $0.28, MP folds, CO calls $0.28

Turn: ($0.63) 3http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.32, CO calls $1.32

River: ($3.27) 3http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $7.40, CO calls $5.33 and is all-in

Results: $13.93 pot ($0.30 rake)
Final Board: 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 4http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif 4http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif 3http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 3http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif
Hero showed 7http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 4http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif and won $13.63 ($6.68 net)
CO showed Khttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif and lost (-$6.95 net)
10-28-2013, 05:25 PM
BorisTheSpider

Nice hand, sizing is excellent.

I see what you mean, it's probably about having a mentality of still pot controlling mid-strength stuff rather than assuming that because it's 2NL we can play for stacks with TPTK type hands.
10-28-2013, 05:28 PM
OngBonga

I'm talking about nitting up our raising range, and trying to see cheap flops with hands that play well multi-way. Like 74s lol. I'll limp this on the button if it's a limp party. I'm loving the massive overbets. I've been hitting pot when I flop a monster, and this has been serving me well. But this hand might have me try a little bit of huge overbetting, especially against people who have yellow seats.
10-28-2013, 08:43 PM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Opening smaller is a better way to deal with a loose 3bettor on your left (although moving tables is even better). If you open smaller, there is less for them to win when you fold, and they either risk more with their bluffs when they 3bet you to a "normal" size (eg. 9bb), or they 3bet smaller and have to give you better implied odds (if you're deep enough) to call with stuff like PPs hoping to hit a set.

I'm tightening up with loose players to my left. I'm also using both 2BB and 3BB on the button to steal, now. Added that as I realized that there are tons of times I want to use a small steal bet, but also times when I want to start building a pot for either value or implied odds. With loosies on my left, I tighten up until I've got the button, then small ball them with implied odds hands and value them with bigger hands. Also keeping an eye on SPR and adjusting late position bet sizes vs. limpers and players to left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

If people are massively stationing, then yeah, cbetting too much is bad. You can cbet thinner for value though, so even AK might fit into that category sometimes, but generally it's probably better to be cbetting like TT on Q82 if people are stationing middle pair, or cbetting weaker made hands on drawy boards where people will call you down without odds to draw.

I posted three more hands in the TPTK thread I started. Love to hear your advice on them, if you have time. They all revolved around what you're talking about here.
10-29-2013, 11:00 AM
jyms

I don't vary my opening sizes at these stakes. Getting more value OTB when playing tighter will start with a bigger opening bet. When you start dealing with much bigger opening ranges at higher stakes along with lighter 3 betting then you may want to change the amount of the open. You are going to get so many calls from the blinds opening to 2BB and even though you are playing IP. Better to get value than to try and steal IP with many pots.
10-30-2013, 05:27 PM
bikes

w/e i mean if you wanna play like a nit go for it.