IP cbetting range development

I'm working up some default cbetting ranges for various textures, and am interested to see what people think of this one:

If we open the CO with a range of [AA-22, A2s+, ATo+, K6s+, KJo+ Q7s+, QJo+, 64s-J9s, 54s-JTs] (the entire range in the picture below)

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps7bd6dfef.jpg

The button folds, one of the blinds calls, the flop comes 8:heart: Q:spade: 6:club: and villain checks to us.

Then I'm thinking to cbet the red hands for value, the green hands as bluffs, and check back the blue hands.

This gives me a total cbetting frequency here of 53%, and when I bet, 2/3 of the time it's a bluff, and 1/3 of the time it's for value.

Cbet for value: AA, KK, QQ, 88, 66, AQs, AQo, Q8s, 86s

Cbet bluff: 22-55, ATs, A9s, A7s, A2s-A5s, ATo, K9s-KJs, KJo, J9s-JTs, T9s, 97s, 75s, 54s

Check back: JJ, TT, 99, 77, AKs, AJs, A8s, A6s, AKo, AJo, KQs, Kd9d, K8s, K7s, K6s, KQo, QJs, QTs, Q9s, Q7s, QJo, Jd9d, J8s, T8s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 64s

Any thoughts on the types of hands I've chosen for each range, and reasoning behind any differences would be cool.

Note that for the purposes of discussion, we're assuming a completely unknown villain at zoom.

Why are you chking back the gutter w/o back door flush but c bet bluffing ones with? Also chking back K9dd Intrested not critism. And not v betting kq wtf

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Originally Posted by kickass

Why are you chking back the gutters w/o back door flush but c bet bluffing ones with? Intrested not critism

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Because cbet bluffing the ones that can pick up 9 more outs on the turn gives me more chances to stay aggressive on the turn.

But why not also bluff j9dd

Re: not vbetting KQ, that's because it hates to get checkraised, and it strengthens my checking range a ton. Against an unknown, I'm trying to polarise the hell out of my flop cbetting range so I'm betting either hands that can go for 3 streets of value and can call (or 3bet) a checkraise, or hands that can readily fold to a checkraise.

KQ is also very unlikely to get drawn out on here, so I don't mind checking it back so much, wheras if it was like KJ on a J-high flop, I'd be more inclined to bet it.

It also means the hands somewhere in the middle, that don't bet the flop, can often bet both the turn and river for value, or can call bets on some turns and rivers, wheras I don't want to bloat the pot with them early in the hand.

I am specifically talking here about being readless though, no way I'm not vbetting flop with KQ against a fish.

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Originally Posted by kickass

But why not also bluff j9dd

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Probably not a big deal either way, but it's a little less likely again that I can stay aggro on the turn with it - the other J9s combos can pick up a flushdraw on the turn, but J9dd can't, so I'm a little more likely to either have to 1-and-done with it, or be spewing if I continue bluffing on the turn.

A2 has 3 outs to beat any pair on the flop j9dd has many more does this mean you dont cbet bluff AXdd as well ?

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Originally Posted by kickass

A2 has 3 outs to beat any pair on the flop j9dd has many more does this mean you dont cbet bluff AXdd as well ?

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Yeah, thanks, you're right - betting all the JTs instead of some of the AXdd is better.

you need some hands to cbet and check back turn so you can call river

and def dont check back 6x

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

you need some hands to cbet and check back turn so you can call river

and def dont check back 6x

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Yeah, replacing the small PP with 6x for blockers and 2pair/trips outs.

For hands that cbet then check turn to call river, how many would you have - do QJs+QTs sound reasonable here, should there be more/less, should they be stronger/weaker?

What comes to mind here from villains perspective (assuming a runout that doesn't change things too much from the flop), is that if I bet the flop and villain flats, then I check back the turn, he can:

1. Have checked the turn with something strong, expecting me to bet again, then when I don't he leads the river for thick value

2. Have checked the turn with a hand like JJ, now after I show weakness checking the turn back, he leads the river for thin value against TT/99/78/89.

3. He can have checked the turn to c/r something like a turned FD or T9/JT/79 then I check the turn back and he decides to lead the river as a bluff.

He's got quite a wide range in other words, he can be pretty strong, can be airballing completely, or he can also be somewhere in between. So I'm a bit stuck as to what hands to check the turn with planning to call a river lead - there's a cap to how strong they can be otherwise I give up value with stuff I'd rather bet the turn with, but betting stuff like QJ/QT on the flop is going to somewhat weaken my checking range, so if I can bet flops with say TT/JJ planning to check turn and call river, perhaps that is better???

I'm cbetting every 6x,8x,Q9+ probably, ck back some worse Qx kickers, cbetting OESD/gutters/BDFDs, cbetting overpairs

so ck back Q7/Q8, TT,JJ, some QQ, and check back some low pockets like 22,33,44, and then obv ck back complete airballs.

checking back 6x sucks. You planning on folding like almost all turns, cause so many cards are brutal?

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Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

1. Have checked the turn with something strong, expecting me to bet again, then when I don't he leads the river for thick value

2. Have checked the turn with a hand like JJ, now after I show weakness checking the turn back, he leads the river for thin value against TT/99/78/89.

3. He can have checked the turn to c/r something like a turned FD or T9/JT/79 then I check the turn back and he decides to lead the river as a bluff.

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Still interested to hear your thoughts on this M2M, but I've been looking at it using a BB calling range, and I think on safe runouts:

1. Is an extremely small part of his range

2. Is also quite a small part of his range, but not as a small as (1)

3. Is probably the main bit of his range I want these hands against.

So, I could really use something pretty weak with some sdv like 8x, but I think my previous suggestion of QTs/QJs type hands is probably good - they are hands I'm happy to get 2 streets of value with, so I can just as well do that by bet/check/call as I can by bet/bet/check - it seems to make sense to use the strongest bluffcatchers I can to call rivers.

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Originally Posted by griffey24

so ck back Q7/Q8, TT,JJ, some QQ, and check back some low pockets like 22,33,44, and then obv ck back complete airballs.

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I'm not sure I like checking back QQ, looking at a BB calling range, there isn't much he can have that we can get 3 streets from, so even though the board is quite dry, there are definitely some draws out there and I prefer bet/bet/check than check/bet/bet to get 2 streets from QQ. I probably just try to get 3 streets from it on safe runouts anyway.

Oh, and I think you probably just typo'd but Q8 has 2pr, so I'm checking back Q9s+Q7s for the weaker Qx.

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checking back 6x sucks. You planning on folding like almost all turns, cause so many cards are brutal?

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Yeah, definitely see that wasn't a good idea.

It now looks like this:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps9455a55d.jpg

Red hands bet the flop for value
Green hands bet the flop as a bluff (dark green just shows that only the cc/ss/hh combos bet the flop and not the dd combo which checks)
Purple hands bet the flop for value, to check back the turn then call the river
Blue hands check back

Yah I mean I rarely check back QQ there, but I can see checking back QQ moreso than the other two sets. Yep Q8 def didn't mean check back two pair, meant Qx bad kicker :)

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Originally Posted by griffey24

Yah I mean I rarely check back QQ there, but I can see checking back QQ moreso than the other two sets. Yep Q8 def didn't mean check back two pair, meant Qx bad kicker :)

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I've heard people say this before (if you're gonna check back a set, make it top set), and I'm not sure I understand the reasoning. Is it because it's then least likely we get oversetted on the turn (and most likely that if someone turns a set we cooler them)?

Less top pair hands can call
Combos n shit

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Originally Posted by kickass

Less top pair hands can call
Combos n shit

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Oh yeah, thanks - I keep trying to think about blockers more, and I never seem to get it, gotta keep plugging away...

Yah if we have QQ on this board, we are blocking tons of top pair combos villain can have.