2nl - Unsure if logic is sound

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($1.71)
SB ($1.15)
BB ($2)
UTG ($1.11)
Hero (MP) ($2.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif
UTG calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.08, 1 fold, SB calls $0.07, BB calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.32) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10, UTG calls $0.10, Hero raises $0.50, SB calls $0.40, 2 folds

Turn: ($1.52) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $0.57 (All-In), Hero ?

UTG is an awful player who limps 50% of the time, so the raise is pretty standard. He's also limp/fold 20% so I was pretty sure he'd come along.
SB has played 5/5 hands since he's been sat down.
BB this is the first hand he played since he sat down (1/3)

When the flop comes I'm fairly confident I'm ahead. I think there could be a couple of flush draws I want to push people off when they call behind so I raise it (sizing ok?)

When the SB calls I put him on a Kx type hand. I'm not 100% sure if he'd do the same with a decent pocket pair.

If he had two pair I think he'd shove. I'm also pretty certain he'd shove AK. Sets he'd also shove, I'd guess he'd bet more with them originally too, but I just don't think he understands pot odds.

When the Ace comes down on the turn he shoves. I think this is because it's a pretty good scare card and he wants to push me off any King I may have. The only thing I am slightly worried about is if he had the nut FD however he's pretty short stacked now so he's shoving a lot of turn cards imo.

I'm pretty sure calling is the only option. I was pretty certain I was pushing him all in on most turns, just not 100% confident in my reasoning as there may be some Ax hand I've completely missed, etc.


(If UTG or SB shoved otf I'd be quite happy calling, if BB shoved I'd be lost as to what to do)

Way too committed to fold. Hand looks ok to me.

I'd say there are also a lot of Adxd in his range (probably all of them, although he might shove over otf with these, but who knows). Maybe also some A8 or A4. Lots of Kx also, and naked FD's that realize that the pot is big and their stack is small, so they might as well bet instead of calling.

You can't fold the turn with these odds of course.

About the flop raise I am not so sure vs 3. When you raise here you pretty much decide that you are going to stack off if anyone calls, there are tons of bad turn cards, and from what you said SB also has AK and sets in his range when he bets the flop. I tend to play these spots passively to give myself an easy exit. It may be a leak though.

If you are very sure that you're ahead of all of them, there is also the option to just shove the flop.

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Originally Posted by daviddem

I'd say there are also a lot of Adxd in his range (probably all of them, although he might shove over otf with these, but who knows). Maybe also some A8 or A4. Lots of Kx also.

You can't fold the turn with these odds of course.

About the flop raise I am not so sure vs 3. When you raise here you pretty much decide that you are going to stack off if anyone calls, there are tons of bad turn cards, and from what you said SB also has AK in his range when he bets the flop. I tend to play these spots passively to give myself an easy exit. It may be a leak though.

If you are very sure that you're ahead of all of them, there is also the option to just shove the flop.

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Surely calling that flop is a bad idea with 3 other people in the hand. I hate so many cards.

I also think shoving turns my hand into a bluff. I was doing this for value.

Bigger raise on flop please. You should be looking to get it in since no one is acting like they have you beat (ie you're likely crushing their ranges). As played, you have to call the turn.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Bigger raise on flop please. You should be looking to get it in since no one is acting like they have you beat (ie you're likely crushing their ranges). As played, you have to call the turn.

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Shoving the flop? Or just bigger? If so what sizing would be good?

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I also think shoving turns my hand into a bluff. I was doing this for value.

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I was also talking about shoving the flop for value. The small stacks are unlikely to fold their FD's or Kx facing a shove. The problem with the raise is that it's not enough to price out the draws, because even if a diamond pops ott, you are still committed. So if they call and they hit, they're going to get the rest of the money except sometimes when you hit a diamond otr. So you should charge them more.

edit: and you're right, calling is bad.

First, your not trying to push people of of flush draws at 2nl and second why wold you want to? I think if your going to raise here you need to raise more since you still have goven some pretty decent odds to a flush draw since they aren't priced out. The raise into this many people is a little scary though with NFD's, AK's and sets all possible and none of them are folding. Your not getting any better hands to fold here but worse will call so it's not horrid. The fact that I think your calling off a shove over your raise on the flop means you need to raise more.

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Originally Posted by jyms

First, your not trying to push people of of flush draws at 2nl and second why wold you want to? I think if your going to raise here you need to raise more since you still have goven some pretty decent odds to a flush draw since they aren't priced out. The raise into this many people is a little scary though with NFD's, AK's and sets all possible and none of them are folding. Your not getting any better hands to fold here but worse will call so it's not horrid. The fact that I think your calling off a shove over your raise on the flop means you need to raise more.

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Maybe I worded that wrong, I just wanted to give them bad odds to carry on with their FDs.

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Originally Posted by daviddem

I was also talking about shoving the flop for value. The small stacks are unlikely to fold their FD's or Kx facing a shove. The problem with the raise is that it's not enough to price out the draws, because even if a diamond pops ott, you are still committed. So if they call and they hit, they're going to get the rest of the money except sometimes when you hit a diamond otr. So you should charge them more.

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Yeah you're right. For some reason I forgot we're talking about 2nl and people could actually fold. I'm not sure I like shoving still, but I know I need to raise more now to try and accomplish what I was trying.

Thanks for the advice everyone btw, I suppose I need to have a look at some flop odds and make sure I know standard things like flush draws etc.

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

Shoving the flop? Or just bigger? If so what sizing would be good?

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You're giving people crazy odds to call with a flush draw.

Just wanted to add that it's true that, rationally, there should be practically nothing in their ranges that beats you. However, especially at 2nl, you will regularly find irrational people who find it clever to slow play a set or AK in this spot or are so passive that they will just min bet every street with their nutty hands, or those who play reverse poker and won't commit a significant portion of their stack until they are sure they have the best hand, or until the river when they're "safe from a flush or straight draw"... I've even come across some who just call or check otr with the nuts :confused: Then there is also those who make these absurd calls, like calling a PSB all in ott with a naked gutshot or whatever.

So you can't just assume the rationality of your opponents and you can take that into account when you do your ranging by assigning 1 or 2 combos of nutty hands to fishy villains even if they don't make any sense. Of course when you see someone do that kind of stuff, you should make a note.

I remember a thread on 2p2 where a live poker pro got into a hand with an old guy who limp/reraised preflop vs hero's KK. Hero just called and the flop came the likes of AK7tt. The old guy bet and Hero took a few seconds to think when the old guy showed him his aces and said "you better just fold" because he was afraid of a flush draw and preferred to just pick up the dead money in the pot.

The story is just to give you an idea of how people can be thinking backward about the game.

Lol no money micros, everyone's solid. Anything else is a lie, right?

I was in a hand where a fish checked back IP flop & turn, so I took a pissy little stab at the blank river and they called... with QQ for top set. NH.

And if you raise, I'd say the only possible reason not to shove would be the full stacked BB if you think he would call your bet with a worse hand, but not a shove.

Also let's say you make a pot sized raise to price out the draws, that would be raising to $0.82. SB folds, BB shoves over the top, UTG folds. It's $1.10 to call and there is $3.26 in the pot giving you about 25% pot odds. Do you fold or not?

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Originally Posted by daviddem

Just wanted to add that it's true that, rationally, there should be practically nothing in their ranges that beats you. However, especially at 2nl, you will regularly find irrational people who find it clever to slow play a set or AK in this spot or are so passive that they will just min bet every street with their nutty hands, or those who play reverse poker and won't commit a significant portion of their stack until they are sure they have the best hand, or until the river when they're "safe from a flush or straight draw"... I've even come across some who just call or check otr with the nuts :confused: Then there is also those who make these absurd calls, like calling a PSB all in ott with a naked gutshot or whatever.

So you can't just assume the rationality of your opponents and you can take that into account when you do your ranging by assigning 1 or 2 combos of nutty hands to villain even if they don't make sense to you. Of course when you see someone do that kind of stuff, you should make a note.

I remember a thread on 2p2 where a live poker pro got into a hand with an old guy who limp/reraised preflop vs hero's KK. Hero just called and the flop came the likes of AK7tt. The old guy bet and Hero took a few seconds to think when the old guy showed him his aces and said "you better just fold" because he was afraid of a flush draw and preferred to just pick up the dead money in the pot.

The story is just to give you an idea of how people can be thinking backward about the game.

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I'm more than aware about this :P

Still I'd rather think about it properly and take it in my stride when people do stupid shit I have no way of predicting so when I move up the thought process is there when it's needed.

I like it when people check flopped straights on all 3 streets OOP expecting you to bed.

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

Still I'd rather think about it properly and take it in my stride when people do stupid shit I have no way of predicting so when I move up the thought process is there when it's needed.
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Ya cause the stupid plays never happen at the higher stakes

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

UTG is an awful player who limps 50% of the time, so the raise is pretty standard. He's also limp/fold 20% so I was pretty sure he'd come along.
SB has played 5/5 hands since he's been sat down.
BB this is the first hand he played since he sat down (1/3)
Sound but probably better to call people "weak" rather then awful. This mindset of calling people awful is poor and I used to do the same thing. I think it's better to think about is wow this has this hole in his game. Instead of generalizing to omg he's awful how does he have this in this situation. This isn't a huge deal though but I think it does affect how one perceives their opponent.

When the flop comes I'm fairly confident I'm ahead. I think there could be a couple of flush draws I want to push people off when they call behind so I raise it (sizing ok?)
Good, almost. You should probably bet a larger(You bet 40c into 70c). You aren't "pushing them off" draws. You are charging them and actually hoping they'll tag along. If you don't want them to tag along then you aren't betting enough unless you know they fold fds with a good price in which case betting smaller on purpose is good but this never happens in real life.

When the SB calls I put him on a Kx type hand. I'm not 100% sure if he'd do the same with a decent pocket pair.
I think you are overestimating how strong his range is here.

If he had two pair I think he'd shove. I'm also pretty certain he'd shove AK. Sets he'd also shove, I'd guess he'd bet more with them originally too, but I just don't think he understands pot odds.


When the Ace comes down on the turn he shoves. I think this is because it's a pretty good scare card and he wants to push me off any King I may have. The only thing I am slightly worried about is if he had the nut FD however he's pretty short stacked now so he's shoving a lot of turn cards imo.
At this point you can just count combinations and use pokerstove to help if you after you've analyzed it in your head or on paper without pokerstove. You are definitely "should" be a dog but I doubt it'll ever be enough to justity a fold

I'm pretty sure calling is the only option. I was pretty certain I was pushing him all in on most turns, just not 100% confident in my reasoning as there may be some Ax hand I've completely missed, etc.
Ofcourse. You should be shoving turn 100% at this point on any turn v this guy.

(If UTG or SB shoved otf I'd be quite happy calling, if BB shoved I'd be lost as to what to do)
If BB shoves you just have to get it in, can't fold to a random although if he sat for a couple hands and didn't post until his BB it makes it SLIGHTLY more likely he a real hand. Not enough to change your mind in this situation though.

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Also good job on the way you outlined the post. So much easier to give constructive feedback when you make a post about why you did things instead of villain is x/x/x, I have a pair wat do.