[2NL] 56s in BB, 3-way pot. Action flop

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: $2.48
CO: $1.79
BTN: $1.54
SB: $4.01
Hero (BB): $2.00
UTG: $3.22

SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has 5:spade: 6:spade:

fold, MP raises to $0.08, fold, BTN calls $0.08, fold, Hero calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.25, 3 players) 6:diamond: J:club: 5:heart:
Hero checks, MP bets $0.16, BTN calls $0.16, Hero raises to $0.60, MP raises to $2.40 and is all-in, BTN calls $1.30 and is all-in, Hero ???

MP - 32/26/0 over 33 hands. Cbet 75%, 3/4.

Button - 3rd hand of session

Thoughts?

Call and collect winnings?

Doubt either of them has J5, J6, 55, 66.

Lots of shit players doing that with AJ, KJ. Overpairs, 99-TT wouldn't surprise me either. Maybe straight draws too.

Definite call, if someone turns over JJ you've just ran into the top of their range.

I'd say BTN has an overpair and MP has KJ/AJ.

Not enough money behind to think about folding here.

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

Doubt either of them has J5, J6, 55, 66.

Lots of shit players doing that with AJ, KJ. Overpairs, 99-TT wouldn't surprise me either. Maybe straight draws too.

Definite call, if someone turns over JJ you've just ran into the top of their range.

I'd say BTN has an overpair and MP has KJ/AJ.

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Interested as to why you doubt that either has 55 or 66. MP's line, raise pre, cbet flop before 3bet shoving could represent a flopped set?

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Interested as to why you doubt that either has 55 or 66. MP's line, raise pre, cbet flop before 3bet shoving could represent a flopped set?

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I doubt either have J5 or J6 due to how the hand was played.

I doubt either have 55 or 66 due to how unlikely it is, obviously don't exclude this but it is unlikely.

Don't tell me one had 55 and the other had 66 :lol:

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

I doubt either have J5 or J6 due to how the hand was played.

I doubt either have 55 or 66 due to how unlikely it is, obviously don't exclude this but it is unlikely.

Don't tell me one had 55 and the other had 66 :lol:

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I am with you on neither having J5 or J6. I just think with 2 villains AI, especially with MP's line, one of them could be holding a set.

call and hope to see AA and AJ

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Interested as to why you doubt that either has 55 or 66. MP's line, raise pre, cbet flop before 3bet shoving could represent a flopped set?

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There's only one combo of each out there that's all.

sorry one of the villains showed up w/ the top of their range

fold pre

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

fold pre

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Nit

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Nit

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There isn't really much point playing 56s from the BB when you have loose opponents, just play a tight range and value bet a lot when you hit.

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

There isn't really much point playing 56s from the BB when you have loose opponents, just play a tight range and value bet a lot when you hit.

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It cost me 0.06 to play a hand that plays well in a multi-way pot. No way I am ever folding this pre.

Out of position it doesn't.

On one hand you're right, it's cheap and 56s can play well post-flop, on the other you weren't sure what to do on this flop, so perhaps you're not as skilled as you'd like to believe.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

On one hand you're right, it's cheap and 56s can play well post-flop, on the other you weren't sure what to do on this flop, so perhaps you're not as skilled as you'd like to believe.

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I never claimed to be skilled. I just stated that I have a hand that plays well post-flop in a multi-way pot.

Have you noticed that in the majority of the hands you post for review, you are OOP?

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Nit

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lol? I can almost guarantee you aren't showing a profit when you cold call this hand in the BB v 2 opponents OOP for 4x.

Number 1) You hit ~25% of flops this is obviously amazing and alone makes the hand playable.

2) Wait it's really hard to win pots at this level prior to showdown especially without initiative.

3) 1/4 of these is flush draws or some variation of flush draws. Wait what happens when we get overflushed? We lose our entire stack 100% of the time. Well that's fine we can hit straights!!!111

4) Lets see what straights we can make:
234 - This straight gets paid a tonne everytime because our opponents totally nail the board at a super high frequency when it contains 234!!!11

347- Re 234

478- Re 234, but not quite as bad.

789- Well I hope we already know the shitty end of a straight is not great especially when if when the board contains T or J our hand is worth diddly squat.

Okay okay we still have 2pairs.

5) We'll make these 2% of the time! Yeh buddy!!!11 But wait our 2pairs are small and not even a huge favourite v their AI ranges but it's k.

6) Combo draws!!!11 Okay cool some of these aren't that great due to the prior reasons and even if we do hit huge combo draws we are OUT of position so we are at our opponents mercy.


But it's fine I'm folding 56s in the BB here because I'm a "nit" not because our hand is literally 6high.

edit: MP doesn't even have 100bb which obviously makes this hand that much worst. Next time you want to call someone a nit come up with an actual argument as to why this is a profitable cold call out of position. Don't just state things I can obviously see for myself.

edit2: 7) We flop boats and quads about 1.5% of the flop. Too bad our our opponents are rarely going to catch pieces of these boards.

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Next time you want to call someone a nit come up with an actual argument as to why this is a profitable cold call out of position. Don't just state things I can obviously see for myself.

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It's not a cold call, it's an over-call. :p

(Does that make me a grammar nit?)

Other than that, I 2nd this entire post. If the open was 3x, though... I might have made the same call as Hero, but upon reading this, I see that is a leak.

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I never claimed to be skilled. I just stated that I have a hand that plays well post-flop in a multi-way pot.

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They play well for people who play well

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

lol? I can almost guarantee you aren't showing a profit when you cold call this hand in the BB v 2 opponents OOP for 4x.

Number 1) You hit ~25% of flops this is obviously amazing and alone makes the hand playable. - Point taken

2) Wait it's really hard to win pots at this level prior to showdown especially without initiative. - Not really

3) 1/4 of these is flush draws or some variation of flush draws. Wait what happens when we get overflushed? We lose our entire stack 100% of the time. Well that's fine we can hit straights!!!111 - Point taken

4) Lets see what straights we can make:
234 - This straight gets paid a tonne everytime because our opponents totally nail the board at a super high frequency when it contains 234!!!11 - Yeah mate, nobody ever stacks off with overpairs, 2P, sets or spews with AK at 2NL.

347- Re 234 - Re234

478- Re 234, but not quite as bad. - Re 234

789- Well I hope we already know the shitty end of a straight is not great especially when if when the board contains T or J our hand is worth diddly squat.

Okay okay we still have 2pairs.

5) We'll make these 2% of the time! Yeh buddy!!!11 But wait our 2pairs are small and not even a huge favourite v their AI ranges but it's k.

6) Combo draws!!!11 Okay cool some of these aren't that great due to the prior reasons and even if we do hit huge combo draws we are OUT of position so we are at our opponents mercy - Yeah, let's just play super nitty and fold all SC's in the blinds unless we have AKs then we can get it all in coz we have 2 high cards!!!111


But it's fine I'm folding 56s in the BB here because I'm a "nit" not because our hand is literally 6high.

edit: MP doesn't even have 100bb which obviously makes this hand that much worst. Next time you want to call someone a nit come up with an actual argument as to why this is a profitable cold call out of position. Don't just state things I can obviously see for myself. - Are you agreeing it's nitty to fold 56s in the BB?

edit2: 7) We flop boats and quads about 1.5% of the flop. Too bad our our opponents are rarely going to catch pieces of these boards.

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2) Okay? Back this up with your super high W$WOSD stats

4) Wat, how is anyone ever going to have 2pair on 234 board?

6)I didn't say fold all SCs in the BB I said fold SIX high because it's trash.

This thread turned out better than expected. yAAwn drops knowledge bombs, random BCer argues poorly, hilarity ensues.

I'm confused. How is he supposed to get better at playing 56s in the blinds without playing them?

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Originally Posted by Deucebag

I'm confused. How is he supposed to get better at playing 56s in the blinds without playing them?

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It's the type of hand you don't add to your game until you can play standard spots well. Then you add higher and lower SC's first imo.

Things like 23s 34s have the Ace work in their favour, whereas 56s is just a bit awkward.

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

It's the type of hand you don't add to your game until you can play standard spots well. Then you add higher and lower SC's first imo.

Things like 23s 34s have the Ace work in their favour, whereas 56s is just a bit awkward.

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No you just don't play 56s for 4x period for these stack depths especially without antes. The reason you see people playing this shit on high stakes poker or w/e is because they have MASSIVELY 500+ bb stacks and antes.

23s and 34s are complete garbage because they make less straights then middling SCs but you are right(I think this is what you meant) in that when you bink a straight there will be an A on board. This adds value but not more then the value we lose +the fact we end up on the crap end of the straight etc.

I don't understand this huge misconception you guys have that when something is suited and connected it makes it good.

Small suited connectors in NLHE >> Small suited connectors in LHE but that doesn't mean they are automatically playable in horrible situations for terrible prices. The only way I would be playing 56s or w/e from these positions and a slightly better price was as a very occasional bluff for balance purposes and never at these stakes.

Also you guys need to be dropping the absolute most marginal of calling spots in micros because of the rake. I don't know if anyone realizes it but all this marginal crap you like to play that is probably +eV if you play decently and actually think is actually -eV because the rake fucking kills you. At 2NL-100NL the top 50winners at every stake are paying AT LEAST their winrate in rake. That's cold blooded murder. It's worst the lower you go obviously. This was of course the TOP 50 winners, let alone if you suck.

From the hands I've seen if cobra looks at this thread again his absolute biggest leak is playing way too much marginal(-eV in these cases) shit out of position. I can make this guess a lot of you guys are doing the same from the past 2 posts I've read.

I know this was rambly but I hope it helps someone.

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

No you just don't play 56s for 4x period for these stack depths especially without antes. The reason you see people playing this shit on high stakes poker or w/e is because they have MASSIVELY 500+ bb stacks and antes.

23s and 34s are complete garbage because they make less straights then middling SCs but you are right(I think this is what you meant) in that when you bink a straight there will be an A on board. This adds value but not more then the value we lose +the fact we end up on the crap end of the straight etc.

I don't understand this huge misconception you guys have that when something is suited and connected it makes it good. I think it just makes hands more playable and adds a little balance to your play. Also, I would much rather learn, and make mistakes, at 2NL than wait to learn how to play the hands at 5/10NL

Small suited connectors in NLHE >> Small suited connectors in LHE but that doesn't mean they are automatically playable in horrible situations for terrible prices. The only way I would be playing 56s or w/e from these positions and a slightly better price was as a very occasional bluff for balance purposes and never at these stakes.

Also you guys need to be dropping the absolute most marginal of calling spots in micros because of the rake. I don't know if anyone realizes it but all this marginal crap you like to play that is probably +eV if you play decently and actually think is actually -eV because the rake fucking kills you. At 2NL-100NL the top 50winners at every stake are paying AT LEAST their winrate in rake. That's cold blooded murder. It's worst the lower you go obviously. This was of course the TOP 50 winners, let alone if you suck. I didn't realize the rake was so bad but there is nothing we can do about that. Again, I use the same point of learning to play these hands now, rather than lose a lot more money learning at higher stakes.

From the hands I've seen if cobra looks at this thread again his absolute biggest leak is playing way too much marginal(-eV in these cases) shit out of position. I can make this guess a lot of you guys are doing the same from the past 2 posts I've read.

I know this was rambly but I hope it helps someone.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

No you just don't play 56s for 4x period for these stack depths especially without antes. The reason you see people playing this shit on high stakes poker or w/e is because they have MASSIVELY 500+ bb stacks and antes.

23s and 34s are complete garbage because they make less straights then middling SCs but you are right(I think this is what you meant) in that when you bink a straight there will be an A on board. This adds value but not more then the value we lose +the fact we end up on the crap end of the straight etc.

I don't understand this huge misconception you guys have that when something is suited and connected it makes it good.

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Why have you assumed that I meant you add them to your game in a situation which you then go on to define which I never said?

Adding something to your game would still be massively situational as everything in poker is. I wasn't trying to imply if you are good you can play any hand whenever you want.

I actually agree with what you said completely about doing things which are very slightly +ev as they can get you in trouble, whereas when I first started playing I played a very tag game in FR and won at a decent rate even though I was awful (still am) because people around me were doing horrendous stuff.

Cheers for the post still though, took some information from it.

Okay I tried to explain it to you but you are not seeing it, playing 56s for 4x w/ 100bb stacks is massively -eV. The end.

edit: Also how are you going to ever get to "high" stakes if you are purposely making -eV plays rather then trying to recognize that a situation at the nano's is completely different from "high" stakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Okay I tried to explain it to you but you are not seeing it, playing 56s for 4x w/ 100bb stacks is massively -eV. The end.

edit: Also how are you going to ever get to "high" stakes if you are purposely making -eV plays rather then trying to recognize that a situation at the nano's is completely different from "high" stakes.

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OK, I have tried to explain to you that I would prefer to lose $2 instead of $5/$10/$1,000,000 learning to play these hands now than at the higher stakes. The end.

You're learning the wrong thing at the wrong time, Cobra.

Your goal is to make excellent poker choices every time you think about poker. That means learning to exploit and crush the game you are playing.

What you're trying to do would not be done by most high stakes players because

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

The reason you see people playing this shit on high stakes poker or w/e is because they have
MASSIVELY 500+ bb stacks and antes.

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Given you had no reads, 3rd hand of the session,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

playing 56s for 4x w/ 100bb stacks is massively -eV. The end.

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^ nice summary. cobra doesn't seem to want to take the free advice being offered to him by better players. that's fine. it's his money, and his choice what hands to play when

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

OK, I have tried to explain to you that I would prefer to lose $2 instead of $5/$10/$1,000,000 learning to play these hands now than at the higher stakes. The end.

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you realise that this is saying "i want to make less money/progress than i could", don't you?

also, your comparison of making $2 mistakes to $1000000 mistakes doesn't really hold, because they are just BB's in a bankroll, you should care as much about losing 100bb at 2nl as you should at 10knl imo (obviously easier said than done but that's the goal)

furthermore, your "learning how to play certain hands" logic is kind of bogus too imo. sure, you should always play the most hand combinations you can possibly play with a positive expectation. but it has been shown to you in this thread that calling preflop here does not have a positive expectation. so you should fold and learn to play 65s in a spot where it is actually possible for it to be a winning investment. extrapolating from your "i should learn how to play this hand now while at 2nl even if i'm shown it's -EV" statement, why don't you just call 100% of your range here and learn how to play every single hand on the matrix? i mean, if it doesn't matter to you whether the hands in your range have a positive or negative EV, fuck it, might as well get some experience playing 92o in these spots while you're at 2nl, right?

^^ if you need more arguments to convince you, why don't you make a filter in PT3 for all the SC's you played OOP in raised pots to see if you are showing a profit?

Cobra's argument is that he wants to see for himself that it's -EV, instead of taking other people's word for it. I say go for it - but please play 100% of hands so that you maximize your learning experience. Make sure you post graphs.

edit: oh that's basically what rpm wrote. oh well. ;)

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Originally Posted by rpm

you realise that this is saying "i want to make less money/progress than i could", don't you?

also, your comparison of making $2 mistakes to $1000000 mistakes doesn't really hold, because they are just BB's in a bankroll, you should care as much about losing 100bb at 2nl as you should at 10knl imo (obviously easier said than done but that's the goal)

furthermore, your "learning how to play certain hands" logic is kind of bogus too imo. sure, you should always play the most hand combinations you can possibly play with a positive expectation. but it has been shown to you in this thread that calling preflop here does not have a positive expectation. so you should fold and learn to play 65s in a spot where it is actually possible for it to be a winning investment. extrapolating from your "i should learn how to play this hand now while at 2nl even if i'm shown it's -EV" statement, why don't you just call 100% of your range here and learn how to play every single hand on the matrix? i mean, if it doesn't matter to you whether the hands in your range have a positive or negative EV, fuck it, might as well get some experience playing 92o in these spots while you're at 2nl, right?

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Because that would be dumb. 56s is a playable hand, 92o isn't.

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Originally Posted by daviddem

^^ if you need more arguments to convince you, why don't you make a filter in PT3 for all the SC's you played OOP in raised pots to see if you are showing a profit?

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What range of SC's should I use? Right up to AKs might sway things a little. A2s-T9s?

I have to add that, even though I don't agree with Cobra's argument here, I have immense respect for him standing up to this crowd.

Well, Cobra... concede or defend... for clarity

What, exactly, are you trying to learn? What is the subtlety to your approach that has not been heard by your critics (me, et. al)?

What assumptions have we (the nay-sayers) made?

What is the long-term success you seek with this strategy?

Typical BC thread. What was the point of posting the hand if you're just going to tell much better players that how you played was fine?

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I have to add that, even though I don't agree with Cobra's argument here, I have immense respect for him standing up to this crowd.

Well, Cobra... concede or defend... for clarity

What, exactly, are you trying to learn? What is the subtlety to your approach that has not been heard by your critics (me, et. al)? - All I am trying to do is understand why it is so bad to sometimes play 56s from the blinds. I don't want to come across as ignorant/ungrateful I am just struggling to get my head around it. It's 2NL, surely this would be the best time to try and play these type of hands and just gain a bit of experience. I understand that it is -EV in the short term, but surely it's +EV in the long term?

What assumptions have we (the nay-sayers) made? - I think it has been assumed that I ALWAYS play these type of hands OOP, regardless of the raise size. If button folds, I fold. Because button calls, I think I can call to see a flop (this may well be a bad play, I don't know, I am just trying to learn)

What is the long-term success you seek with this strategy? Just to gain a bit of experience/knowledge playing these type of hands that will hopefully come in use at a later date. To make any really costly mistakes now, rather than at a higher stake. That's it really.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Typical BC thread. What was the point of posting the hand if you're just going to tell much better players that how you played was fine?

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As long as he's engaging in the defense of his point of view, then it's cool. It's part of learning to defend your misconceptions until they're gone. Being confident is a great quality in a poker player, he's got to be confident in his game. Breaking misplaced confidence is hard, but essential in poker growth (and life).

SC's = { JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s } JTs is arguable, since it's sometimes played as a suited double broadway.

I'd include S1G's and S2G's for the sake of your search.
{ Q9s,J9s-J8s,T8s-T7s,97s-96s,86s-85s,75s-74s,64s,53s }

Full range of SC's, S1G's, S2G's:
{ Q9s,J8s+,T7s+,96s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,53s+ }

@Cobra - You seem to be missing that they are saying that playing 56s from the BB isn't profitable in the type of situation you played it at any stake.

You are very often a massive underdog so you need better pot odds and/or implied odds to play it.

Try it for example with just SC's (which supposedly are marginally better than S1G's), from 56s to T9s. Don't forget to specify raised pot and OOP. Then try it with raised pot IP. Then try it with limped pot OOP and limped pot IP. When you post the results don't forget to mention the sample size for reach case.

Then also include the S1G's in the same range to increase the sample sizes (T8s-64s).

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Originally Posted by daviddem

Try it for example with just SC's (which supposedly are marginally better than S1G's), from 56s to T9s. Don't forget to specify raised pot and OOP. Then try it with raised pot IP. Then try it with limped pot. When you post the results don't forget to mention the sample size for reach case.

Then also include the S1G's in the same range to increase the sample sizes (T8s-64s).

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OK, will do that when I have some time. Probably a little later on today. Sample size will be small, I expect around the 100 hands mark

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Because that would be dumb. 56s is a playable hand, 92o isn't.

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both hands are playable in certain situations. i min-open 92o on the BU when it's folded to me and i have two mass-tabling nit regs who both fold their blinds 90% of the time and never adjust. however, i never defend it from the BB vs an open and an SB flat-call in a CAP game. because in the first case the hand is profitable and in the second one it is not.

the same can be said for 65s. i flat it from the BB when UTG min-opens and every single player (all with 100bb) on my FR table flat-calls before me. however, i don't defend it on the BB when MP opens for 4x, BU cold-calls, and our effective stacks are <100bb. because it's profitable in the first situation and not in the second.

that's the point everyone is trying to make to you. certain hands are profitable to play in some situations and not in others. in any situation you want to play as many hands as you can do for a profit and fold those which you cannot play profitably. icanhastreebet has gone out of his way to tell you that calling 65s here is -EV and given you good reasons why this is the case (which not many people would be willing to do, i might add). if you insist on making -EV plays for the sake of learning, where do you draw the line? if you are happy to consciously make a -EV play here with 65s, then i can only assume that EV-maximisation isn't your highest concern at the tables, so you might as well play every single hand, right?

or if, conversely, you are trying to argue that 65s is a profitable call here despite the information given to you by far more experienced and talented players, then why did you make a thread? and why do you use the strategy forums?

i hope this doesn't come across as personal criticism. this post was genuinely intended to be helpful for you. for your poker game, and for your forum-use-strategy (that's right, you can lose/gain real-world poker EV in your social decisions on an internet forum)

edited to tailor the "hypothetical" situations more to cobra's HH in this thread

:h::h::h: Cobra_1878

some great value ITT.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I have immense respect for him standing up to this crowd

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he's a scouser. that's what they do.

1st in with boots 'n' fists, even if death is a certainty.

hardcore

SC's, raised pot, OOP.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6...isedpotoop.png

SC's, raised pot, IP.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9...aisedpotip.png

SC's & S1G's, raised pot, OOP.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6...isedpotoop.png

SC's & S1G's, raised pot, IP.

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9...aisedpotip.png

I had nowhere near enough sample size for limped pots, OOP or IP, no more than 10 hands on any other than this one

SC's & S1G's, unraised pot, OOP.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/737...isedpotoop.png

what about stats for when you cold called a raise in the BB with these hands?

No money to be made at the micros everybody's solid.

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Originally Posted by eugmac

what about stats for when you cold called a raise in the BB with these hands?

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I have no stats for cold calling a raise in the BB with SC's or S1G's.

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I have no stats for cold calling a raise in the BB with SC's or S1G's.

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I find this hard to believe with how much you advocate playing anything that looks half decent to try and improve.

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

I find this hard to believe with how much you advocate playing anything that looks half decent to try and improve.

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Would you like a screenshot?

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

I find this hard to believe with how much you advocate playing anything that looks half decent to try and improve.

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Can't cold call if you've posted.

A lot of the value of calling SC type hands comes from being able to semibluff with decent equity with a flush draw (and to a lesser extent, a straight draw). You rely on being able to win without a showdown, and occasionally luck out and win a big pot when you screw up. You also make it more likely that you'll be called down when you hit your overpairs/sets/etc. In games where people are never folding, you actually need cards to win. Your overpairs/sets/straights will be called down anyway and your semibluffs will too.

Trying to learn XXX cheaply in a low stakes game where XXX isn't profitable against opponents who you would never see in a high stakes game doesn't really make a lot of sense. Play the player, not the cards. It's what a high stakes player would do.

A cold call is calling a bet AND a raise on a street where you have not put any money in the pot.

Pre-flop, since the blinds count as bets, all it takes is someone to raise (not limp) pre-flop and players behind the opener can cold call... unless they're in the blinds, who have already bet this round.

So, when you're in the blinds, you can not cold call - by definition.

Of course, once one person calls, anyone can over call.