[2NL] JJ...unsure on what to do.

Printable View

09-29-2012, 06:07 PM
Cobra_1878

[2NL] JJ...unsure on what to do.

Villain was 85/8 through 91 hands. Limped 84% of the time, calling afterwards 76% of the time. Massive limp/caller, he was calling my 0.12 raises, even called a 0.20 raise. Folded to 33% of 3bets, 2/6.

He donked 57% of flops, 13/23 flops. Only folded to flop raise, 17% of time, 1/7. Folded to cbet on turn 67%, 4/6 times.

I know he overplays his draws, usually min betting before calling any sort of raise on the flop. I had also seen him min raise on a flop with 2nd pair & TPTK.

Had seen him pay off 3 streets of bets, with 2 overs out, holding 77.

Had seen him raise all-in, on a QQ5 flop, holding 33.

Sorry if that's too much information, just thought I would get as much in as possible.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($2.33)
MP ($0.74)
Hero (CO) ($2.26)
Button ($3.71)
SB ($0.36)
BB ($5.14)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
UTG calls $0.02, MP bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.18, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.16, MP calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.57) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG bets $0.10, MP calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.48, UTG calls $0.38, 1 fold

Turn: ($1.63) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero ???

I am so lost. I couldn't put this guy on a range to save my life. The raise on flop was purely hoping for a fold so I am kind of lost when he calls. I know I should have a plan but I just didn't know how to take this guy on and JJ is my worst hand.
09-29-2012, 06:17 PM
bikes

ffs that logic is so bad.

the live pro 'end the hand' really shows through with you
09-29-2012, 07:26 PM
supa

Hero bets turn and probably checks behind on most rivers.
09-29-2012, 08:19 PM
daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

The raise on flop was purely hoping for a fold

based on your description of villain you are raising flop for fat value vs his calling range - you shouldn't want him to fold here. Turn is close, you can't bet fold cos of stack depth and pot size. If you're going to bet then I'm not sure if $0.64 or jam is better, if you're going to check then you need to plan in advance what you're doing on the river
09-29-2012, 10:32 PM
rpm

raise flop to at least $0.7, shove turn for value.
09-30-2012, 10:08 PM
kmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

The raise on flop was purely hoping for a fold so I am kind of lost when he calls. I know I should have a plan but I just didn't know how to take this guy on and JJ is my worst hand.

I honestly think you need to relearn the most basic concepts of poker. Not to be mean but why on earth are you bluffing here with that hand?
09-30-2012, 11:39 PM
rpm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmind

I honestly know you need to relearn the most basic concepts of poker. Not to be mean but why on earth are you bluffing here with that hand?

FYP

no offence cobra, but the threads you have posted in here recently indicate you really need to learn about WHY you are betting and what it means to make a mistake in no-limit holdem. luckily enough, you are in the right place.
10-01-2012, 03:55 AM
Cobra_1878

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmind

I honestly think you need to relearn the most basic concepts of poker. Not to be mean but why on earth are you bluffing here with that hand?

Sorry, I didn't mean it to come across that way. It wasn't a bluff, I am pretty sure I have the best hand but I want to take it down on the flop, as if an over or a diamond ( in this case both ) hits on turn I don't know where I stand anymore.
10-01-2012, 06:07 AM
rpm

you want him to call and you have already stated the reason why

"I know he overplays his draws, usually min betting before calling any sort of raise on the flop. I had also seen him min raise on a flop with 2nd pair & TPTK.

Had seen him pay off 3 streets of bets, with 2 overs out, holding 77.

Had seen him raise all-in, on a QQ5 flop, holding 33."
10-01-2012, 12:46 PM
kmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Sorry, I didn't mean it to come across that way. It wasn't a bluff, I am pretty sure I have the best hand but I want to take it down on the flop, as if an over or a diamond ( in this case both ) hits on turn I don't know where I stand anymore.

This is just a lazy way to play poker. Start crunching numbers in those situations and see what you should do. Then come back to earlier parts of the hand and figure out the best ways to play. You can't just start making simple +EV plays and be content. You need to make the most EV.
10-01-2012, 02:36 PM
OngBonga

Quote:

The raise on flop was purely hoping for a fold

Quote:

It wasn't a bluff, I am pretty sure I have the best hand

Quote:

ffs that logic is so bad.

Thread summed up in three quotes.

You don't seem to understand why you are betting, cobra.
10-01-2012, 02:59 PM
Cobra_1878

I am betting, thinking I have the best hand, hoping to take it down on the flop.
10-01-2012, 03:08 PM
bikes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I am betting, thinking I have the best hand, hoping to take it down on the flop.

WOOOSH
10-01-2012, 03:23 PM
eugmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikes

WOOOSH

What bikes means is, you've said this already, and we've told you why it's bad, and it seems not to have registered yet, so let's try spelling it out.

Betting in order to "take it down" is not a good reason to bet.
10-01-2012, 03:55 PM
Arjonius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I am betting, thinking I have the best hand, hoping to take it down on the flop.

Why are you hoping to win the pot then and there? Yes, there are draws on the flop, but how much of his range do they represent? There are also overs that can come on the turn, but how well do they hit his range?
10-01-2012, 06:08 PM
OngBonga

There are two reasons to bet...

1. because villain continues with worse... the value bet
2. because villain folds better... the bluff.

Perhaps there are some instances where both apply, but never are we value betting and hoping for a fold, because in order to value bet, we beat villain's range, and hence if he calls we make more money than if he folds.

This is really basic poker concepts, you really need to figure out why your logic of hoping for a fold when you think you're ahead is retarded.
10-01-2012, 08:19 PM
rpm

nice post ong
10-01-2012, 10:04 PM
supa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I am betting, thinking I have the best hand, hoping to take it down on the flop.

Have you figured out what's wrong with this yet?
10-02-2012, 03:27 AM
Cobra_1878

Quote:

Originally Posted by supa

Have you figured out what's wrong with this yet?

Yeah, I have. If I am betting thinking I have the best hand then I am betting for value, not for a fold.
10-02-2012, 04:11 AM
rpm

worth mentioning here that a value bet is defined as one which is expected to have 50% or more equity against the range that villain calls with. for example, in this hand, if villain donk bets 100% of his hands but only ever continues to a raise with QQ+ and sets (this is obviously just to make a point) then we cannot raise for value. EVEN THOUGH we "think we have the best hand" when villain bets. it's how we do against the range that villain continues with against our value bet/raise that we are concerned with. that's a very important distinction. let me know if you want further clarification on that.
10-02-2012, 05:06 AM
Cobra_1878

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpm

worth mentioning here that a value bet is defined as one which is expected to have 50% or more equity against the range that villain calls with. for example, in this hand, if villain donk bets 100% of his hands but only ever continues to a raise with QQ+ and sets (this is obviously just to make a point) then we cannot raise for value. EVEN THOUGH we "think we have the best hand" when villain bets. it's how we do against the range that villain continues with against our value bet/raise that we are concerned with. that's a very important distinction. let me know if you want further clarification on that.

Yeah, I understand that. Thank you for the explanation though.
10-02-2012, 07:26 AM
Icanhastreebet

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

There are two reasons to bet...

1. because villain continues with worse... the value bet
2. because villain folds better... the bluff.

Perhaps there are some instances where both apply, but never are we value betting and hoping for a fold, because in order to value bet, we beat villain's range, and hence if he calls we make more money than if he folds.

This is really basic poker concepts, you really need to figure out why your logic of hoping for a fold when you think you're ahead is retarded.

There is a 3rd reason but it doesn't really need to be said because it'll just cloud cobra's mind. It also doesn't apply nearly as often in hold em as it does in PLO.
10-02-2012, 12:26 PM
OngBonga

Yeah I don't doubt there's more to the value/bluff thing than what I posted, I just wanted to keep it simple.

rpm is correct, we value bet when we're ahead of villain's continuing range, not his entire range. This is extremely important, my bad for not making this point clear.