[2NL] 99 ( Flop a Set )

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08-10-2012, 03:43 AM
Cobra_1878

[2NL] 99 ( Flop a Set )

Not many stats to go on here. The BB had only played 12 hands, but on the hand before had lost around $2.30 calling somebodies all-in on the River when the opponent had flopped a FH.

UTG was limping every time he played, he limped with AA & KK, he was 31/1 through 150 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($2.60)
Button ($3.14)
SB ($1.42)
BB ($3.37)
UTG ($5.54)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif
UTG calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, BB calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.25) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets $0.18, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.61) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets $0.44, Hero ???

I am not even sure what I am doing here? Should I be raising to protect against any straight draws? It would seem stupid he called a 0.08 raise on say 86s & then donk bets the flop, which makes me think he probably has an overpair?

Should I just shove here and get it all in or call again and shove on the River?
08-10-2012, 03:54 AM
Shotglass

IMO - raise flop.

As played: I normally like to play big hands fast because practically nobody expects me to be betting and raising 2pr, sets+ otf but by donking both the flop and turn this guy seems more than willing to keep betting into us, so I'd like to just call the turn. The problem is that if we just call the turn then otr our stack'll be 127% of the pot with no guarantee that he'll keep betting into us so I'd go ahead and raise the turn to get it in now.
08-10-2012, 07:18 AM
Miffed22001

You have a big hand so get the pot big - you achieve that through raising!!

So raise flop !! As played mash the rAise button now!!!
08-10-2012, 07:51 AM
surviva316

Not sure whether raising flop or flatting is better. Definitely raise now, though.
08-10-2012, 02:27 PM
Cobra_1878

I don't like scaring people off on the flop, IMO it's not THAT dangerous a flop and from the line he has taken it looks like an overpair? Was more than happy to call the flop and let him bet again on the Turn. Just not sure whether to flat call again or shove.
08-10-2012, 02:31 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I don't like scaring people off on the flop, IMO it's not THAT dangerous a flop and from the line he has taken it looks like an overpair? Was more than happy to call the flop and let him bet again on the Turn. Just not sure whether to flat call again or shove.

so we are more worried about scaring people off than getting the pot big?

Your villain is unknown or not good according to reads and we are playing stakes where villains make math/range mistakes....
08-10-2012, 03:55 PM
surviva316

Stacks are too deep to shove. Raise to like 1.14 and shove river.

I'm definitely thinking we should raise the flop, too. It's a strange line/sizing/etc for villain to take as a pure bluff, and if he has a hand that he likes, then he's likely to get stubborn with it given how much this flop missed our range, and if he has a hand he was just testing with, then we're probably not getting much more from him.

You have to stop thinking in terms of "not blowing players off of hands." When you have the nuts, your objective is to get stacks in. In this hand, you can't get stacks in without someone raising somewhere, and the flop is the best place to do it because pretty much 80% of turns is either a scare card for his range or makes some part of his range catch up to our hand.
08-10-2012, 04:02 PM
Cobra_1878

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

so we are more worried about scaring people off than getting the pot big?

Your villain is unknown or not good according to reads and we are playing stakes where villains make math/range mistakes....

Yeah, I worry about missing out on value with good hands, would rather let them bet into me and raise at the right time. I am 90% sure I am ahead here, so I am not too worried about many cards that can come out. I don't mean to sound stubborn or anything, just putting my point across so you can reply and I can learn :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

Stacks are too deep to shove. Raise to like 1.14 and shove river.

I'm definitely thinking we should raise the flop, too. It's a strange line/sizing/etc for villain to take as a pure bluff, and if he has a hand that he likes, then he's likely to get stubborn with it given how much this flop missed our range, and if he has a hand he was just testing with, then we're probably not getting much more from him.

You have to stop thinking in terms of "not blowing players off of hands." When you have the nuts, your objective is to get stacks in. In this hand, you can't get stacks in without someone raising somewhere, and the flop is the best place to do it because pretty much 80% of turns is either a scare card for his range or makes some part of his range catch up to our hand.

Hmm, yeah they are good points about the Turn card. I know I am supposed to get stacks in, but I try to choose the right time to raise where I think I can get a call.
08-10-2012, 07:59 PM
supa

1000th post!!

Raise flop = make money.

This is 2nl. You're gonna get called here often enough to make it way more profitable then just waiting for them to bet. Raise and get stacks in every time you're ahead- and you're way better than 90% here. Don't get tricky and for godsakes don't give these fish credit for knowing where the fold button is unless they've proven without a doubt they can find it. RAISE RAISE RAISE!!!
08-10-2012, 08:04 PM
Cobra_1878

To be honest I find a lot of 2NL players are extremely tight. Usually a simple cbet will take a pot down with no fight. So when I get played at, it worries me. Not in this hand obviously, but overall.
08-10-2012, 08:06 PM
supa

1000th post officially wasted.
08-11-2012, 01:00 AM
Shotglass

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

...When you have the nuts, your objective is to get stacks in. In this hand, you can't get stacks in without someone raising somewhere, and the flop is the best place to do it because pretty much 80% of turns is either a scare card for his range or makes some part of his range catch up to our hand.

Not only that but by raising the flop then the turn and river bets get significantly bigger...in this case the pot on the turn was $0.61. 75% of that is ~$0.45; but if hero had raised the flop to $0.32 and villain called then the turn pot would be $0.89 and 75% bets would be $0.66. That's an 10.5bb increase.
IDK about y'all but I like those numbers.
08-11-2012, 01:02 AM
Shotglass

Quote:

Originally Posted by supa

1000th post officially wasted.

:drunk:
08-11-2012, 01:06 AM
ColdDecked

raisy daisy somewhere

2NL players are extremely tight? I guess you'd have to move up to really appreciate how loose passive and fishy games are at 2NL.
08-16-2012, 09:44 PM
bikes

why are we raising the turn now?

raising flop is headscratchingly bad
08-17-2012, 12:35 AM
Shotglass

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikes

why are we raising the turn now?

raising flop is headscratchingly bad

please explain
08-17-2012, 11:39 PM
bikes

WHAT THE FUCK EVERYONE WANTS TO RAISE

I SWEAR TO GOD EVERYONE PLAYS A DIFFERENT GAME
08-18-2012, 08:01 AM
OngBonga

I don't want to raise flop or turn. Sets and top pair make up a very small part of his range, overpairs are unlikely due to pf action, so what are we expecting him to continue with? Let him keep firing his A7 or whatever.

Raise any non 6 or 8 river.
08-20-2012, 07:49 PM
Icanhastreebet

We have the deck so crippled on the flop I'm not really sure why anyone would want to raise w/ this hand. He's pretty much drawing dead(or has the nuts it's w/e)/won't have anything to continue you with so I have no clue why you would ever raise flop.

Turn doesn't change anything so I still don't have a clue why we would raise.
08-20-2012, 07:50 PM
Icanhastreebet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I am not even sure what I am doing here? Should I be raising to protect against any straight draws?

...What straight draws is villain donk betting the flop with?
08-20-2012, 08:34 PM
bikes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

We have the deck so crippled on the flop I'm not really sure why anyone would want to raise w/ this hand. He's pretty much drawing dead(or has the nuts it's w/e)/won't have anything to continue you with so I have no clue why you would ever raise flop.

Turn doesn't change anything so I still don't have a clue why we would raise.

thank you yaawn for tyyping shit i am too lazy to
08-20-2012, 08:46 PM
Cobra_1878

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

...What straight draws is villain donk betting the flop with?

I don't know....8T possibly?
08-21-2012, 04:12 PM
ColdDecked

I get your argument for flatting flop and all, but I think at nanos, it would be better to raise and get it in here. The way I saw it is that villain led into 2 players on drawheavy, so he's prob vbetting, and most villains at nanos can't fold/will stack off with most of their vbet range. Stuff like tp/overpairs/2p that you should probably lead/fold flop, but I don't give credit to people at nanos to be able to b/f those hands. At the same time, if a scare card peels off, people at nanos shut down and won't stack off with the same hands that they very well could had on the flop because omg I have tp+
08-22-2012, 08:13 PM
surviva316

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Turn doesn't change anything so I still don't have a clue why we would raise.

It just seems way easier to get value against hands like 87 on the turn than it is on any river other than a 7/8 (for example). If his hand is stronger than that, then he's going to be hard-pressed to fold it when such a FoS board and such a terribly blank turn when he's a station fish who's tilted.

Of course we give him another street to hang himself either with a bluff or get him to hit a card on the river that makes him b/c (which will happen 15% of the time if he has two overs).

I don't feel like making all the assumptions and doing all the math that's involved in speculating what can expect to get more value against his whole range, so I guess I'll just leave this post at that lol.