33 vs unknown bvb at 25nl

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Button ($41.79)
Hero (SB) ($43.71)
BB ($15)
UTG ($31.36)
UTG+1 ($26.45)
MP1 ($51.23)
MP2 ($25)
CO ($9.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...cards/club.gif, 3http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/heart.gif
6 folds, Hero bets $0.70, BB raises to $1.70, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.40) 7http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ds/diamond.gif, 2http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/spade.gif, 8http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ds/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($7.40) 4http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $3.70, Hero calls $3.70

River: ($14.80) 9http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...cards/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $7.60 (All-In), Hero calls $7.60

Total pot: $30 | Rake: $1.35

Villain is literally playing his first hand at the table after waiting for bb, thus zero reads, aside from him not being full stacked.

I'm curious how I should be playing this hand. Fold pre to 3bet? Fold flop? I basically called bullshit on him and stationed down to keep the air in his range, am I burning money?

As for his range pre, I haven't a clue. Value hands such as TT+ AQ+ AJs+, some Axs Kxs, and some air. Maybe 44-99 4bets, idk.

When he bets half pot on flop, I consider this weak on this flop. I narrow his range to remove overpairs and sets, leaving air, pairs, flush draws and overcards. I feel like he's barrelling most, if not all, of his range, but I think he bets more with monsters.

Turn is another weak bet, but he's clearly setting up a river shove. If I call turn, I'm calling most rivers.

This river is as good as I can hope for, I've already decided I'm calling a shove so it's snappity snap.

I can't decide if I've played this well or terribly.

I'd just fold pre, unless we hit a set playing well postflop is going to be near impossible.

Hero calling down looks bad.

This feels like the kind of hand where you get to the end of the session and think, "this would have been a good session if only I'd just folded the 33 hand pre-flop". It relies on a lot of assumptions against someone you've played 0 hands against.

Against the right player I don't mind, but against an unknown I can't see it being a great idea.

I feel like your reasoning for calling each street (including pre) centered around his sizing, and yet his sizing is exactly what left for a perfect shove on the river that enticed a weak pair to call.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surviva316

I feel like your reasoning for calling each street (including pre) centered around his sizing, and yet his sizing is exactly what left for a perfect shove on the river that enticed a weak pair to call.

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His sizing is exactly the reason I didn't fold, this is not my standard play in this spot. I really tanked my time on the turn, I realised he's setting up nicely for the river shove, and I know I have to call it if I'm calling this turn bet. But I really felt the flop bet was weak, I'm expecting his value hands to try and get most of the money in by the turn.

fwiw my hand was good. I guess I just want to know if I'm lucky or if I'm right to consider these bets as weak.

lol missed overs i knewit!

C'mon, Ong.
Seriously think about what you'd tell someone else who posted this hand.

would not fold any street.

this hand is pretty reliant upon your betsizing soul read of an entirely unknown player. what makes you so sure he bets more with his monsters? you have no information to give you such a read. i'd fold pre personally but if you feel you can defend 33 OOP to a 3b then i suppose calling is ok.

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Originally Posted by rpm

what makes you so sure he bets more with his monsters?

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The draw heavy flop. There's tons of flush and straight draws in my range here, ok I muck my unsuited connectors but I still have T9s JTs lots of Axs and other diamond combos. Why is he letting me see relatively cheap cards if he has me crushed?

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Originally Posted by Shotglass

C'mon, Ong.
Seriously think about what you'd tell someone else who posted this hand.

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I'd say it looks bad. But then again, I wouldn't be sure.

Is anybody just open folding this pre?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

would not fold any street.

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Honestly, I dunno if you're serious here or not. I don't think you're gonna troll BC threads, even mine. So are you calling this down for the same reason as I am? And what turns and rivers can you fold to? I'm folding to diamonds, A and K, maybe Q.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

His sizing is exactly the reason I didn't fold, this is not my standard play in this spot. I really tanked my time on the turn, I realised he's setting up nicely for the river shove, and I know I have to call it if I'm calling this turn bet. But I really felt the flop bet was weak, I'm expecting his value hands to try and get most of the money in by the turn.

fwiw my hand was good. I guess I just want to know if I'm lucky or if I'm right to consider these bets as weak.

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Look, I'm not stubbornly in one camp or another on this one. I've called down AQ unimproved for stacks 150bb deep on a board like this myself.

It just seems like we're giving an unknown half-stacker the perfect amount of credit to be able to justify this--neither too much moe too little. He's good enough to know this board should scare him based on our range, but not good enough to know how to entice calls in a way that still gets stacks in and not good enough to know the runout was a terrible board to bluff.

It just seems like a sick soul read of someone playing their first habd in a spot where we're like 70/30 on the flop against the bottom of their range OOP. But maybe I've come to be too nitty in my relatively old poker age.

It also seems like we're certain villain has a respectable hand preflop, even though our later streets rely on the assumption that he's throwing stacks around BvB. I know that fish get stubborn thinking that they can't lose with their AK, but it's just more assumptions of an unknown.

I'm really not shocked at all you won the hand; I'm just not sure flop/turn is worth it (river is loldo).

I certainly don't hate this BvB against an unknown on this board, especially if your bullshit detector is going off - I think a lot of villains will 3b a wide range here first hand and triple barrel all of their 3betting range on this board, especially after you provide the incentive to bluff shove the river by tanking the turn and checking the river.

Pokerstove is interesting too. If we assume villain 3bets {22+, A8s+, ATo+, KQs, KQo} and triple barrels this range (big IF readless), we have 43% equity on flop, 50% on the turn and 56% on the river - calling therefore seems fine.

Or is this thinking and logic just retarded?

flop peel bad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

The draw heavy flop. There's tons of flush and straight draws in my range here, ok I muck my unsuited connectors but I still have T9s JTs lots of Axs and other diamond combos.

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thats my point. this guy is entirely unknown. you are projecting your own poker knowledge and tendencies onto your opponent. you are talking about your range here as if he knows what your range is or is capable of reacting to what your range is. wayyyy too many assumptions for me here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Why is he letting me see relatively cheap cards if he has me crushed?

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perhaps he sucks. perhaps he is projecting his poker knowledge onto you and wanted to set it up to go in over three streets for you to hero-call small pairs against him, knowing you would C/R all your sets and nut hands (because that's what he'd do)

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Originally Posted by The Bean Counter

If we assume villain 3bets {22+, A8s+, ATo+, KQs, KQo} and triple barrels this range (big IF readless)

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That's an incredibly big IF

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Bean Counter

Or is this thinking and logic just retarded?

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I'm thinking - yes.

Thanks for the feedback guys. tbh I'm still nowhere near knowing whether I made a dumb call down here or not. There's a few conflicting opinions by people whose game I respect greatly. Bikes threw a spanner in the works with his comment.

Shotty, that incredibly big if... he had Q5. So looking back, his 3bet range is even wider than I dared hope, and he's triple barrelling his entire range.

rpm... you're absolutely correct, when a villain is totally unknown, I might apply my own tendencies to give a vague idea of how he might play the hand. I realise this is flawed because everyone plays differently, but it's kind of like having one eye open instead of none. Better to have a vague idea how he might play than none at all, is my logic. But I could be making a huge mistake in doing this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Shotty, that incredibly big if... he had Q5. So looking back, his 3bet range is even wider than I dared hope, and he's triple barrelling his entire range.

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With a drooler like that I'd defo make a note of his screen name >>>>>$$$$$$$$ cha ching

FWIW, it is better for us to take this line with literally ANY other hand in our range than it is to take it with this one (maybe a black KJs is the rare exception). I would say 66 is much better to take this line with because he will be bluffing bad made hands he doesn't want to get to showdown with every once in a while and we have better equity against hands like Q5 (cough cough) and we will pick up outs on some turns.

Even if you feel like his flop bet is really light, it should help you sleep at night that you will be able to continue to it with 90% of your range, either c/c'ing down with your SDV hands or c/shoving turns with your JTs type hands.

Remember when you quoted my post in another thread about the importance of planning your entire range in a way that best exploits your opponents? :P

I'll offer the nit point of view, I'd typically fold every street against an unknown but there are definetly players this is pretty standard against (eg some of those Chinese 3 bet monkeys at 25nl/50nl)

Given this is an unknown, not a fan, but if bikes likes it then it can only be my inner nit that thinks its not so good!

Edit: just read villain ahd Q5 - still doesnt change my mind that id fold pre a lot - if this was a mid pair say 88 i think its a touch decision against nearly any player bvb

can't win a BBJ with 3333 obv.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

can't win a BBJ with 3333 obv.

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<3

Might be abck to Empire (lololol how old is that site) if they turn over stars...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surviva316

Remember when you quoted my post in another thread about the importance of planning your entire range in a way that best exploits your opponents? :P

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You mean this?

Quote:

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Also, forming ranges for yourself and adjusting them in ways that make it difficult for you to be exploited and that maximize profit for the top of your range.

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I hope I didn't give the impression I fully understand this, because I can assure you I don't. But I want to. I think this is the kind of thinking that separates the likes of you from the likes of me. I hope to understand this concept in time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Button ($41.79)
Hero (SB) ($43.71)
BB ($15)
UTG ($31.36)
UTG+1 ($26.45)
MP1 ($51.23)
MP2 ($25)
CO ($9.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...cards/club.gif, 3http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/heart.gif
6 folds, Hero bets $0.70, BB raises to $1.70, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.40) 7http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ds/diamond.gif, 2http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/spade.gif, 8http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ds/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($7.40) 4http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $3.70, Hero calls $3.70

River: ($14.80) 9http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...cards/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $7.60 (All-In), Hero calls $7.60

Total pot: $30 | Rake: $1.35

Villain is literally playing his first hand at the table after waiting for bb, thus zero reads, aside from him not being full stacked.

I'm curious how I should be playing this hand. Fold pre to 3bet? Fold flop? I basically called bullshit on him and stationed down to keep the air in his range, am I burning money?

As for his range pre, I haven't a clue. Value hands such as TT+ AQ+ AJs+, some Axs Kxs, and some air. Maybe 44-99 4bets, idk.

When he bets half pot on flop, I consider this weak on this flop. I narrow his range to remove overpairs and sets, leaving air, pairs, flush draws and overcards. I feel like he's barrelling most, if not all, of his range, but I think he bets more with monsters.

Turn is another weak bet, but he's clearly setting up a river shove. If I call turn, I'm calling most rivers.

This river is as good as I can hope for, I've already decided I'm calling a shove so it's snappity snap.

I can't decide if I've played this well or terribly.

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I think it's actually a good call; his 3b range isn't likely to have binked the flop that well except some overpairs sitting nicely. The bet sizing set by him would probably be enticing since it is so cheap, he 3b pre he doesn't need to bet very large to get stacks in though and he may be more inclined to do this line with sets too as not much of your range calls OOP that would hit that flop. Calling allows his range to remain as air on this relatively unscary flop in regards to his preflop 3b range. His post flop range is allowed to be air; by you not repopping him on the flop/turn/river you never narrow his range to by forcing him to define it and thus it allows for all the air to continue to stay. Yet thinking they'll be capable of a 3barrel bluff in the very first hand; no history. With reads; I'd think this is a great play. But unknown you might not find yourself making such a good call down. SPR on TURN makes it a snap river call on the shove. River spr is like <1 or something so LDO on that; which allows for your range to be a little wider in a calldown with a hand that has SHOWDOWN VALUE. On the other hand I could see turning your hand into a bluff on the flop; maybe getting him to fold some parts of his range that beat you. He still has a solid 6 outs to outdraw you if he's on whiffed overcards; so getting him to fold that equity isn't bad; unless you HAD a read of 3barrel bluffs. I guess this reply really just lets me know I suck at poker. Tear me apart.