flatting small PP's

I listened to the grinder school podcast yest. on itunes. This guy was talking about when and when not to flat small pp's. He was saying that in a FR game the sb, bb, utg, and utg+1... he is raising 99 plus and folding all smaller pairs if facing a raise. His reasoning was that we would be out of position and the 7 out of 8 times we missed our set we would not have an opportunity to cbet and take the pot down. Also he said we have so many people to act behind that we could get squeezed alot and that this would just be a losing play in the long run. While I agree mostly with what he was saying... he didn't really go into when a good time to flat small pp's would be. When do you guys flat pre with small pp's? Also let's say you pick up 99 UTG are you raising this to 4 bb's? I have been auto calling raises with small pp's and i think this is a huge leak for me. I know I don't have a specific question but I am lost with this..

1st question:

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When do you guys flat pre with small pp's?

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I know this answer sucks, but...it really depends on a ton of different things.
position
position
position
What was the action prior to me?
Is it going to be profitable for me if I hit my set (odds)
How many players in the hand?
Do I think I can out play my opponent if HU?
Reads on opponents, and a whole slue of other things.

2nd question:

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Also let's say you pick up 99 UTG are you raising this to 4 bb's?

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I'd be raising to about 3bb, unless 3bb was getting a few callers and 4bb was taking the blinds on this table then I'd go to 4.

Edit: IMO, 99 isn't a small pp. 22-77 are small pps. but it's semantics :D

I play small PP from CO and BTN (meaning I will open with them, or call behind for a small bet in a multi-way pot). I'm not opposed to defending a steal with them from the blinds.

Yes, I'm open raising 99+ from UTG. I'm folding 88-, too. I am never limping or calling from UTG, UTG+1. I raise or fold.

The calling behind hands are the SC's, S1G's, S2G's, suited A's & K's, and yes, the weak PP's (the hands that are usually behind, but have a chance to improve to the nuts). About half of these hands can be played from CO and all of them from the BTN when I will be IP post-flop. Of course, the power of position allows me to open with these hands, too.

All of this is just generic advice and should be tailored to fit the specific table conditions at the moment.

Here's some important concepts here:

Implied odds which depends on:
-strength of villain's range
-effective stack size
-skill of villain
-number of villains both in, and left to act (especially weaker ones)

Position is important if we want to get paid more easily and/or take the pot without showdown when we miss. We also have to consider villains left to act and how likely they are to 3bet pre.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shotglass

1st question:

I know this answer sucks, but...it really depends on a ton of different things.
position
position
position
What was the action prior to me?
Is it going to be profitable for me if I hit my set (odds)
How many players in the hand?
Do I think I can out play my opponent if HU?
Reads on opponents, and a whole slue of other things.

2nd question:

I'd be raising to about 3bb, unless 3bb was getting a few callers and 4bb was taking the blinds on this table then I'd go to 4.

Edit: IMO, 99 isn't a small pp. 22-77 are small pps. but it's semantics :D

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I am going to post some hands so you guys can see what I am doing...

Thanks for the help

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Originally Posted by gotigers1234

I am going to post some hands so you guys can see what I am doing...

Thanks for the help

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That's the best way to get some good advice :D

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

All of this is just generic advice and should be tailored to fit the specific table conditions at the moment.

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Seems to be a common theme in our responses :cool:

Yeah. It's just the nature of the beast, here. If there was a "right" was to play each pocket, that was independent of villains, position, board texture, etc... then the advice would be more concrete. However, it would mean that once we learned to play poker, there was no room for improvement, no further skill to employ. Sounds pretty boring. I'd find a more interesting game.

Unless you think you can get away with making it different sizes with different hands, I'd recommend having one size for each position, and varying it with the strength of your range, so you might make it 4bb utg and utg+1 with your whole range from those positions, 3bb other positions, and 2.5bb on the button.

I open 99+ in 6max utg, sometimes opening smaller pairs if there is a big fish in the blinds and I feel it's likely I'll isolate them. Opening smaller pps is probably a leak even then, but I sometimes can't resist the temptation - everyone finds it tough to fold pairs I think, but honestly the smaller ones suck when it comes to postflop playability - its impossible to stay aggressive without spewing when you have only 2 outs.

If it's opened in EP by a nit, who likely has a big hand they will at least consider stacking off with, then calling on the button or co is good, even if it will be HU, because you're playing against a strong range that can pay off when you hit. It's easy to overestimate your implied odds, and I am sure I am guilty of that, I think often it's just better to fold - they really do have to be a nit and only be opening stacking-off hands, or be pretty weak-tight postflop so you can get to showdown unimproved against their missed overs sometimes.

Calling behind in lp with multiple callers in front is the best possible spot, as the pot lays you great odds. The only exception would be a really squeeze-happy blind, but even then they probably won't squeeze a tight utg opener + multiple callers. In these kind of pots, you can sometimes even setmine the turn - eg. utg opened and 4 callers + you saw the flop, you miss, utg bets a flop that it's likely a lot of people have a piece of and everyone calls - you can call behind there and have direct pot odds to setmine the turn, but I wouldn't do so with small pairs, as you're too likely to be oversetted - on the rare occasions this does happed, it's probably best only to try this with like TT+

Calling to setmine in ep/mp is generally bad - you can get squeezed behind, and it can easily come back around shoved utg on top of that.

If I've opened, and I'm 3bet by a tight 3better, then I'll call that if stacks are say 15x the size of the call, as again they have a strong range that will pay off.

Lots of variables, as you can see. I'll have to look in my db later and see if I actually make any money with like 55-99, I suspect if I do it's hardly worth it - it's very easy to overestimate the profitability of setmining because we all tend to overestimate our implied odds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by d0zer

Here's some important concepts here:

Implied odds which depends on:
-strength of villain's range
-effective stack size
-skill of villain
-number of villains both in, and left to act (especially weaker ones)

Position is important if we want to get paid more easily and/or take the pot without showdown when we miss. We also have to consider villains left to act and how likely they are to 3bet pre.

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