99 facing aggression on flop

What do you guys think about the limp here??

On the flop is this an easy fold?

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (7 handed) - Cake-Poker Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

CO ($3.78)
Button ($2.87)
SB ($2.88)
BB ($4.17)
UTG ($4.28)
Hero (MP1) ($3.88)
MP2 ($4.42)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ds/diamond.gif, 9http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...cards/club.gif
UTG calls $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, 2 folds, Button calls $0.04, SB calls $0.02, BB checks

Flop: ($0.20) 8http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/heart.gif, 3http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/spade.gif, 7http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/spade.gif (5 players)
SB bets $0.10, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.10, Button raises to $0.35, SB raises to $1.35, Hero folds, Button calls $1

Turn: ($3) Qhttp://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...cards/club.gif (2 players)
SB raises to $1.49 (All-In), Button calls $1.48 (All-In)

River: ($5.96) 9http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/...ards/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $5.96 | Rake: $0.39

Yeah pretty easy flop fold to that action. Some villain stats would help, but it's gonna take two donks who we know stack top pair on the flop by habit for this be even close to a call.

I don't hate the limp pre but raising is probably going to be better.

i really feel that raising preflop should be your standard play here. as played, flop is fine.

+1

The overlimp is fine, although you can also isolate the utg limper. I think I prefer an isolation if you believe it will work, since your hand is somewhat strong, so you really don't want 3 or 4 people seeing the flop with you. There's no point raising to isolate and bloating the pot though if there are people behind you who will call anyway, but that may just be a matter of sizing - if there are very loose people behind you and you want to isolate utg, you could try making it really big, like 7bb or whatever.

With like 44 or 55, your hand is weak enough unimproved that you don't really mind a multi-way pot and in fact prefer it for implied odds, in which case an overlimp becomes preferable in MP, or in LP with multiple limpers, but I'd still isolate if it folded to me on the CO or BTN since you might as well get the blinds out of the pot if they haven't got much of a hand and get some dead money in the pot to take down with a cbet.

The flop is OK, but I prefer raising the SB to about $0.35 to $0.40 - you've got to assume at that point that you've got the best hand until they let you know otherwise, and you want value for it - you also have a hand that is easily outdrawn, so you'll prefer to get the button out of the pot, and quite often you'll just take it down right there with a raise before an overcard turns and you don't know what to do any more.

As played, folding the flop when it comes back around 3bet is definitely right.

I'm not sure about raising flop after sb's lead, we have three pf limpers to act behind and the sb to act again. He's showing strength betting oop into 4 players, I think call/fold flop to this sizing, and reassess turn if we get there.
At the moment I'm assuming we're readless, since we haven't got villain stats and reads.

@boris

raising the flop is ok if we get value from villain's calling range. raising the flop because we probably have the best hand vs his total leading range (while ignoring his lead/calling range) is not ok. raising "to take it down" before any scare cards come is also incorrect, as best i know.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm not sure about raising flop after sb's lead, we have three pf limpers to act behind and the sb to act again. He's showing strength betting oop into 4 players, I think call/fold flop to this sizing, and reassess turn if we get there.
At the moment I'm assuming we're readless, since we haven't got villain stats and reads.

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When SB leads out, BB and UTG fold before it gets to us, so there's just the button to act behind - that's why I like a raise - it prevents a loose overcall from the btn who gets 4:1 on an overcall if we just flat, I'd rather make him fold his equity share now, or at least charge him for a draw.

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Originally Posted by rpm

@boris

raising the flop is ok if we get value from villain's calling range. raising the flop because we probably have the best hand vs his total leading range (while ignoring his lead/calling range) is not ok. raising "to take it down" before any scare cards come is also incorrect, as best i know.

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Good point that it's not a reason to bet "because we have the best hand", I probably didn't word that right.

I think we can raise for 2 reasons:

1. We often take down the dead money now, and make the other players fold their equity share with weak draws and pairs. We can't ever bluff here, as better isn't folding, but it's not so bad that worse folds since we have a hand that is quite easy to play right now but isn't on the turn.

2. We can extract value from worse. TPTK for example here, in a 5NL game, is likely calling a raise, and the turn will kill our action in that case.

I don't believe he has a lead-call range that is ahead of us, if he's ahead I think he'll always lead-reraise as he's already chosen not to slowplay a monster, so if he 3bets it we have an easy fold, if he flats a raise I think he's nearly always on a flush draw, sometimes an oesd and rarely a very loosely played tptk.

I don't believe it's wrong to raise to take it down now - if we do raise, we often do take it down and we get pretty solid value for our unimproved low-mid strength hand - we really don't have a hand that is likely to win if 2 other players peel another street and possibly two, so if we can fold them out now I don't mind making them fold worse hand that have outs to improve if we let them peel for cheap.

Other opinions on this definitely appreciated, I don't post this as a statement of fact, I'm quite open to the idea that this whole line of thought might be bogus, but I really don't like flatting this flop so if I am wrong I'd like to learn why.

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Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

When SB leads out, BB and UTG fold before it gets to us, so there's just the button to act behind - that's why I like a raise - it prevents a loose overcall from the btn who gets 4:1 on an overcall if we just flat, I'd rather make him fold his equity share now, or at least charge him for a draw.

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Of course. For some reason I thought we were bb when I made my post.

Raising is better now, I'm not sure if it's better than calling. I'd guess there's not much in it, raising gives us position and initiative when the BU folds, and there's plenty of draws and 8x hands we can get some value from. But it bloats the pot, and there's a lot of bad turns for us, so calling keeps the pot small and allows us to get away cheaper. Our hand isn't brilliant so I think I'm still calling this flop lead, not raising.

Thanks for all the input guys. I didn't really have any stats on these guys just a few hands. I just switched with lock to cake and there are tons of unknowns. Against unknowns are you guys normally playing tighter abc style?

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Originally Posted by gotigers1234

Thanks for all the input guys. I didn't really have any stats on these guys just a few hands. I just switched with lock to cake and there are tons of unknowns. Against unknowns are you guys normally playing tighter abc style?

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I'm sort of going through the same - I'm moving up, at least for some of the time when there seems to be a good 50NL game, and it's a new player pool. Your edge is going to be smaller, and you have to play standard poker. I like to play pretty small ball and ABC in this situation, as whenever I don't I seem to end up donkeying myself by assuming the best - that the unknown is loose, or is too aggressive. Often they are not and you just end up value-towning yourself, so I think restraint is the name of the game until you get some reads.

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Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

I'm sort of going through the same - I'm moving up, at least for some of the time when there seems to be a good 50NL game, and it's a new player pool. Your edge is going to be smaller, and you have to play standard poker. I like to play pretty small ball and ABC in this situation, as whenever I don't I seem to end up donkeying myself by assuming the best - that the unknown is loose, or is too aggressive. Often they are not and you just end up value-towning yourself, so I think restraint is the name of the game until you get some reads.

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I almost feel like I am playing too tight sometimes though. Did you get moved man?

Raise pre - flatting an utg open raise or second limping UTG+1 is just weak and asking to be squeezed.

Flop is marginal imo to either call, raise or fold - I'd be inclined to raise but fold to any further aggression, as there's a good chance there's a set or flush draws with overs around the table

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Originally Posted by gotigers1234

I almost feel like I am playing too tight sometimes though. Did you get moved man?

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Yeah, all done thanks. Been away a couple of weeks though, but have had skype on, just been at pc odd hours - hopefully we can catch up for HH review soon?

You are probably not playing too tight, and if you are, it's a smaller mistake than the mistakes you'd be likely to make playing looser, so I don't think it's a bad thing with a new player pool.