KK 80bb+ all-in pre?

After having KK run into AA a few times this month, I thought I'd drill into my database. Yeah, yeah, I know it's an old topic..

Over 60k tracked hands, I've got the money all-in pre for 80bb+ with KK nine times. Of those 9 times, I have:

- Run into aces 8 times
- Run into tens 1 time against your typical late-night weekend idiot.

I've always thought getting the money in is a no-brainer, but the 8 times against AA have all been against FR players with ABC/TAG stats.It therefore seems nobody sane is getting anything other than AA all in pre for 80bb+.

Are people really folding kk pre and this is therefore a leak I need to plug? Should I be 3b/f and 4b/f kings in future against non-idiots?

It's just variance, way more important things to work on than getting KK all in pre.

meh I think that's just a run of bad luck.

That said, what lines are getting you all-in? Most deep stack villains at the micros are scared by a 3-bet and aren't going to be 4 (or more) -betting with less than KK or AKs at worst.

Also, what other pockets are you getting all-in pre with, and what's calling you down those times? The villains can't see if you have KK or not before they call.

I've run KK into QQ AK and worse 80bb+ deep well enough times to not worry about running into AA.

what lines are you taking to get it in though?

are you open shoving KK? 3b shoving KK? or 4b shoving vs 3bets from nits?
lines you take matter more than simply 'getting it in'

don't see the reason for you to chastise him daven.

post some hands and we can take a look and see what situations you are running into.

dont post results, from there we can give you more useful feedback.

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Originally Posted by bikes

don't see the reason for you to chastise him daven.

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my post wasn't intended to come across as critical, @ op, i apologise if you felt chastised upon reading my post,
also @ op, the lines you take to get it in have an impact on whether you are running into coolers or not. I wondered at the lines based on this hand that you posted http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ck-190856.html
post all 9 KK hands in one thread here and we can take a look - see if you're running bad or not.

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Originally Posted by daven

my post wasn't intended to come across as critical, @ op, i apologise if you felt chastised upon reading my post,
also @ op, the lines you take to get it in have an impact on whether you are running into coolers or not. I wondered at the lines based on this hand that you posted http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ck-190856.html

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No offence taken - I have thick skin in any case and need to be called an idiot for my own good sometimes.

Will post a short version of hands soon - the 99 hand really isn't the way I normally play.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I've run KK into QQ AK and worse 80bb+ deep well enough times to not worry about running into AA.

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Would be interested in seeing your results to see if part of my problem is variance (and there are enough idiots out there getting it in with worse than KK).

Full Ring or Short Handed?

Would be interested to know if you're getting away from any of these hands.

Assume anybody with more than a couple of hundred hands on me has me down as 18/14 with 5% 3bet, 3% 4bet range and 26% 3bet call. Any less than that and they could have me down as a rock, lag, mouse, maniac or anything in between depending on the table. I am never less than 100bb deep.

1) Hero UTG, Villain SB 95 hands, 17/12/15, 0/1 ft4b, 0/3 4b.
I open 3bb, villain raises to 7bb, I raise to 21bb, villain shoves 80bb.

2) Hero CO, Villain BTN 963 hands, 15/11/3, 1/3 ft4b, 3/18 4b.
I open 3bb, villain raises to 11bb, I raise to 26bb, villain raises to 41bb (with 60bb behind).

3) Hero UTG+1, Villain MP 13 hands, 38/23/20, 0/1 ft4b, no 4b info.
I open 4bb, villain raises to 10bb, I raise to 25bb, villain shoves 100bb.

4) Hero MP, Villain UTG+1 50 hands, 14/10/0, 0/1 ft3b, 1/1 4b.
Villain opens 4bb, I raise to 12bb, villain shoves 100bb.

5) Hero BTN, Villain UTG 872 hands, 11/9/4, 6/10 ft3b, 3/10 4b.
Villain opens 4bb, I raise to 10bb, villain raises to 25bb (with 75bb behind).

6) Hero BB, Villain UTG 672 hands, 15/12/3, 1/8 ft3b, 2/8 4b.
Villain opens 3bb, I raise to 12bb, villain raises to 25bb (with 75bb behind).

7) Hero UTG, Villain CO 52 hands, 18/12/15, 0/1 ft4b, no 4b info.
Table is full of incompetents and stations that would all call a standard 4bet - I'm looking for an idiot to pay me off with worse and don't want to take a flop.
I open 3bb, HJ flats, villain raises to 7bb, BB flats, I shove, villain calls.

8) Hero UTG+1, Villain MP 743 hands, 15/12/3, 2/3 ft4b.
I open 3bb, villain raises to 8bb, I raise to 28bb, villain raises to 50bb (with 55bb behind).

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Full Ring or Short Handed?

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Full ring.

1); 2);3); 4); 8)i fold the 5bet
5);6) call the 4bet
7) ok the shove

If nobody is stacking pre with less than aa, yet 3b maybe 5% or w/e, they must fold to a huge amount to 4bs so start 4bing with Ax. If people start calling with AK/jj etc, you'll know you can start getting your kk in, if not, make money.

stop 4-and 5-betting when villain's calling or 5b range is AA. You are manipulating their ranges towards the absolute nuts in most of these hands.

hand 1 - you don't have to auto 4bet here, your 4bet sizing is too big, he pretty much has KK+ when he 5b shoves
hand 2 - meh, call the 4b and shove the flop
hand 3 - get it in
hand 4 - close, you can probably fold if you haven't 3bet him at least once already
hand 5 - call, shoving makes him fold QQ and AK. You could consider nit-folding too i guess
hand 6 - jam
hand 7 - you could 4b to 28bb or something, but shoving is fine
hand 8 - call vs the 3b

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

1); 2);3); 4); 8)i fold the 5bet
5);6) call the 4bet
7) ok the shove

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god you must be the easiest person in the world to play against

this thread is starting to make my head want to explode. to everyone: dont 4bet fold KK. if you can't get it in comfortably preflop then you shouldn't be 4betting it.

+1 to pretty much everything Daven said.

This is a must see for the OP. It took me a couple of days to relocate this file. It perfectly explains the thought processes that seem to be at work here.

Nikachu Cardrunners Training - YouTube

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Originally Posted by bikes

god you must be the easiest person in the world to play against

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i am :rolleyes:. that is if my opponent is aware and takes notes, but i am capable of adjusting when needed so it becomes a litlle bit more easier said then done to play against me

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

This is a must see for the OP. It took me a couple of days to relocate this file. It perfectly explains the thought processes that seem to be at work here.

Nikachu Cardrunners Training - YouTube

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Best video ever.

His free training vid is crazy good. Real drills home the concept of the fish being worth more than the blinds.

Very, very, very good video. Probably in top 3 I have ever seen and I've easily watched well over 200.

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

this thread is starting to make my head want to explode. to everyone: dont 4bet fold KK. if you can't get it in comfortably preflop then you shouldn't be 4betting it.

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best advice itt

Nikachu's video is awesome lol

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Very, very, very good video. Probably in top 3 I have ever seen and I've easily watched well over 200.

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What's the other 2 in your top 3?

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Originally Posted by Stacks

What's the other 2 in your top 3?

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This was on my mind all yesterday. Don't leave us hanging, bro.

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Originally Posted by Stacks

What's the other 2 in your top 3?

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nutsinho playing jman hu at 25/50 is in there

# 3 is kind of open depending on how I feel I guess lol

Thanks for the link MMM - an excellent video that's really hit home the concepts.

This thread has definitely helped to achieve a step change in my thinking and understanding - thanks all.