10nl: flop 2pair 190 bb deep 3way

this was a hand from a couple of days ago.MP was a huge calling station limp calling all the time . UTG was 28/23 overall with 67% cbet. he had a $22 stack when i sat at the table and was 17/17 from UTG so opening a fairly wide range.


IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
BB: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
UTG: $19.09 (190.9 bb)
MP: $14.66 (146.6 bb)
CO: $12.95 (129.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $21.84 (218.4 bb)
SB: $11.95 (119.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Th.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Ac.gif
UTG raises to $0.40, MP folds, CO calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.35) http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/6d.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/As.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Tc.gif (3 players)
UTG bets $1.01, CO calls $1.01,Hero ???

obviously i'm not folding , and calling sticks me in a horrible spot if a broadway card comes on the turn as UTG has lots of broadways in his UTG opening range and maybe some middle suited connectors. SO i'm raising this flop but when reviewing this hand I was wondering about how big to raise . Should i raise bigger and hope that the UTG has a hand that he will come along with so that i can go for his 190bb stack and accept thatthe statoin is probably going to baulk at calling for a fair chunk of his stack in hopes of hitting something..

Should i even be trying to go for 190bb stack or try and get value without potentially value cutting myself on a good but potentially vulnerable hand.

The alternative is to raise to something like 2.50 and if the UTG folds station may call (cos its only another $1.50) or if UTG calls station may spaz out and shove his Ax hands .

I'm guessing you mean CO was a huge station?

Probably just fold this pre or maybe squeeze to iso the fish if UTG can fold to 3bets. Calling just doesn't seem +EV even with position.

I'd make it $3.75 on the flop and try to get the money in by the river vs either of them if they call (assuming non terrible runout). If UTG 3bets it's a very tough spot unless you've seen him play for stacks deep with TPTK.

Hoopy nailed it I think.

If UTG 3bets our flop raise, I'm mucking.

nawwwww call flap imo.

I think pre is a really easy 3bet given that utg is opening so wide.

How can we fold if utg 3bets? He can have 1(AA) 1(TT) and 3(66) to win...thats soooo tight. Idk, it seems like we'd need a lot of info to convince us to fold instead of convince us to call.

Im shit for raise sizing, but co has 129 so on the bigger side.

Ok, so if we're going to be in the dark when we raise and he 3bets because we are unsure of his 3betting tendencies, then we should call as d0zer suggests.

I don't want to play guessing games almost 200bb deep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

Ok, so if we're going to be in the dark when we raise and he 3bets because we are unsure of his 3betting tendencies, then we should call as d0zer suggests.

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UTG hadn't 4bet at all and he was running 7.1% 3bet overall

Quote:

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I don't want to play guessing games almost 200bb deep.

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That's primarily the reason i flatted pre. I didn't want to get in a bloated pot with a likely dominated hand. I'm guessing that with dozer saying to flat the flop he's not looking to get 200 bb in , whereas the raisers are generally looking to set up to get stacks in with the raise sizes being suggested.

This is a calldown for me, barring any scare cards, where I could easily see a fold on future streets.

I meant if we raise on the flop and he 3bets us. Not if we 3bet pre and he 4bets.

I would prefer a squeeze here though (PF of course). We're deep, we can get away from A and T high boards if we have to postflop. And flops like this are fkn $$$$$$ lol

As played, call like d0zer says since we're unaware of his 3betting tendencies postflop deep.

call because on such a dry board, by raising we narrow the continuing range of most villains too much. We're repping an extremely small but strong range by raising, but we're likely to get credit for it in a 3-way, and there's not much they can call with.

by just calling though, do we end up in a shitty position on turn if a broadway card comes? or are we just just making it cheaper to fold in that case?. A broadway card is going to then be giving better two pairs ,straights and straight draws and leaving it against multiple opponents. Raising to a certain extent then gives us some protection by either taking the hand down or culling one of the opponents out orcutting down on the straight draws that are out there.

Also , with regards to the squeeze preflop, why do we want to squeeze the fish out of the pot when we have position on him and probably dominate most of his Ax hands and the rest of his junk. It also allows UTG to cbet most of the junkier parts of his range

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keith

by just calling though, do we end up in a shitty position on turn if a broadway card comes? or are we just just making it cheaper to fold in that case?. A broadway card is going to then be giving better two pairs ,straights and straight draws and leaving it against multiple opponents. Raising to a certain extent then gives us some protection by either taking the hand down or culling one of the opponents out orcutting down on the straight draws that are out there.

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I don't think a K, Q, or J is falling often enough to justify forcing UTG to fold so many hands that we beat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keith

Also , with regards to the squeeze preflop, why do we want to squeeze the fish out of the pot when we have position on him and probably dominate most of his Ax hands and the rest of his junk. It also allows UTG to cbet most of the junkier parts of his range

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If CO is such a calling station I would expect him to call the squeeze with those junk aces.

raising is so lol

I would usually just fold pre here. As played raise the flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by d0zer

nawwwww call flap imo.

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what the fuck this is awful advice

(exactly what I'd do)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

raising is so lol

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MOAR AWFUL ADVICE

(seriously, raising is silly)

Raising folds too many hands we beat that we have nice position on going into the turn. What's wrong with calling the flop?

well , I saw the flop and their bets and heard that Kerching sound and wanted to play for stacks.

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
BB: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
UTG: $19.09 (190.9 bb)
MP: $14.66 (146.6 bb)
CO: $12.95 (129.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $21.84 (218.4 bb)
SB: $11.95 (119.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Th.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Ac.gif
UTG raises to $0.40, MP folds, CO calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.35) http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/6d.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/As.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Tc.gif (3 players)
UTG bets $1.01, CO calls $1.01, Hero raises to $4.04, UTG calls $3.03, CO folds

Turn: ($10.44) http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Jd.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero ???

At this point I thought I probably still had the best hand but was feeling nervous. his 78s still had a gut shot , his 89s now has an openender,AQ AK QQ KK now have a gutshot, i'm smoked by KQ. I couldn't see that AJ or JJ would have called the flop raise as deep as we were but I'm not sure if that is a valid assumption.

so i had several options here

- check back , pot control and let him bluff his AK AQ/missed draws on the river

- bet half pot to leave half pot bet on a blank river & fold to a turn shove and evaluate river and hate to see a 679JQ or K

-shove and either take it down or let him pay to hit his draws

I like checking back for pot control. Way too many of the hands you are worrying about never see this turn though

your thought process needs lots of work if the options in your head are

a) check for 'pot control' so he can 'bluff' AQ and AK
b) half pot and hate life on a river 6789
c) overbet 1.5x pot to make him 'pay' to see his draws

hence posting the hand for advice and the questions in the OP about whether I should be looking to play for stacks or not. In the heat of the moment , I saw the flop and decided to make it as easy as possible to get the money in. I never seriously considered calling the flop, so thats a flaw in thought process for a start.

I'm not worried about an 8 though as the middle suited connectors i had in his 17% opening range UTG flopped a gutshot but couldn't see him having gappers in that opening range.

as far as bad turn cards go, you have the best one.

b/f $6.1

shove ever river below a J

seems like a really easy b/c of $6 or so, I mean we're not folding calling $9 into $31

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

seems like a really easy b/c of $6 or so, I mean we're not folding calling $9 into $31

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2 or 4 outs is bad when he's never c/shoving worse, we are also drawing dead a non 0 % of the time


Board: Ac Ts 6d Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 07.197% 07.20% 00.00% 228 0.00 { ATo }
Hand 1: 92.803% 92.80% 00.00% 2940 0.00 { AA, TT, 66, AJs, KQs }

Finding this turn quite hard to work out, but maybe because I hate raising the flop.

What if we had done (what I think is) the correct thing on the flop? If he checks this turn, I guess this is a bet/call right?

As played there is currently discussion about which is best, but b/f can only be right if our flop raise has totally narrowed his range right? If we flat the flop, is his range wide enough to make our call better?

A6s clearly in a 28/23 UTG's range, much higher likelihood of AQ/AK than KQs although it's discounted. But still, some aware aggressive player isn't bet/calling KQ on the flop OOP.

Range has to be A6s, AT+, 66, TT, AA

You can even take out half the AQ/AK combos that don't contain the Ac and I bet we're like a 2.5:1 dog.

going back to gingerwizards comments. If we flat the flop how are we reacting to either UTG or CO betting this turn. CO was something like 56/6 from memory. I wouldn't now be comfortable playing a big pot multiway on this board now uless we bink a T on the river.

we're calling obviously raising this turn or almost any turn for that matter is pretty horrible

Say we just called flop, both check to us, we bet and UTG or CO c/r's. We're pretty much sigh folding, yes?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

Say we just called flop, both check to us, we bet and UTG or CO c/r's. We're pretty much sigh folding, yes?

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id say yes nuffin chk raises that turn that AT beats

the irony .....hand from tonights session

IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
Poker Tools[/url] Powered By Holdem Manager[/url] - The Ultimate Poker Software[/url] Suite.
BB: $39.55 (197.7 bb)
CO: $26.50 (132.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $20 (100 bb)
SB: $5.28 (26.4 bb)
Preflop: Hero is BTN with A:club: T:diamond:
CO raises to $0.60, Hero calls $0.60, 2 folds
Flop: ($1.50) A:spade: 8:heart: T:club: (2 players)
CO bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75
Turn: ($3) J:club: (2 players)
CO bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50
River: ($6) T:heart: (2 players)
CO bets $4.50, Hero raises to $14.62, CO raises to $23.65 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.53 and is all-in
Results: $40.30 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: A:spade: 8:heart: T:club: J:club: T:heart:
CO showed 8:spade: T:spade: and lost (-$20 net)
Hero mucked A:club: T:diamond: and won $38.30 ($18.30 net)

that 25bb you didnt shove on the river is a pretty large mistake

holy shit how do you even consider raising with any part of your range here?

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

BB: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
UTG: $19.09 (190.9 bb)
MP: $14.66 (146.6 bb)
CO: $12.95 (129.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $21.84 (218.4 bb)
SB: $11.95 (119.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Th.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Ac.gif
UTG raises to $0.40, MP folds, CO calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.35) http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/6d.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/As.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Tc.gif (3 players)
UTG bets $1.01, CO calls $1.01, Hero raises to $4.04, UTG calls $3.03, CO folds

Turn: ($10.44) http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Jd.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $17.40 and is all-in, UTG calls $14.65 and is all-in

River: ($39.74) http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/3h.gif (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Spoiler:
Results: $39.74 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/6d.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/As.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Tc.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Jd.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/3h.gif
UTG showed http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Ah.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Kh.gif and lost (-$19.09 net)
Hero mucked http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Th.gif http://www.cohforums.com/images/smilies/Ac.gif and won $37.74 ($18.65 net)




UTG tanked an awfull long time before making the call and after the hand the CO fish launched into an epic tirade so i'm guessing he folded something like 33,JJ AJ or KQ.

Thanks to everyone for their comments , reviewing the hand left me wondering about that flop decision.I won the pot but it could so easily have backfired on me,Hopefully the discussion has proved enlightening to others who suggested raising the flop as well.

i mean yeah he made a beyond horrible call but your shove is pretty wtfsigh

Don't like the shove on the turn at all. AK is probably the one hand you beat that might, once in a horrible player, call sometimes. All of the hands you do beat that would have called $6 go bye bye, so in expectation you maximise your losses against the top part of his range.

i'd fold 66 to the turn shove and you are value shoving, which says a lot.

lolol the turn shove is awesome