T9s river two pair - 25nl

cutoff is bad, button and sb are nits, bb is 44-0 small sample

Raise river? how much?

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($12.93)
UTG+1 ($25)
hero (MP1) ($28.34)
MP2 ($25)
CO ($34.12)
BTN ($25.47)
SB ($55.89)
BB ($17.79)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 8 players) hero is MP1 :ts: :9s:
2 folds, hero raises to $0.85, 1 fold, CO calls $0.85, 2 folds, BB calls $0.60

Flop: :3h: :2d: :th: ($2.65, 3 players)
BB checks, hero bets $1.80, CO folds, BB calls $1.80

Turn: :kc: ($6.25, 2 players)
BB checks, hero checks

River: :9c: ($6.25, 2 players)
BB bets $3.25,

Looks like a standard value raise to me. I imagine he calls with a lot worse.

Agreed, a raise sounds good here. He'll probably call a small raise with all of his top-pair hands, maybe to about $8.50.

I just call this. Always remember a post by Renton saying treat 2 pair like TPTK, and I would not value raise AK here. Maybe that's a bit nitty.

I agree with Star that a lot worse calls. I just don't know if a lot worse bets out in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gingerwizard

I just call this. Always remember a post by Renton saying treat 2 pair like TPTK, and I would not value raise AK here.

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That's kind of taking his quote out of context (not to mention applying it to post-UIGEA games). He was talking about AQ on a AQx board isn't really any different from AK on an Axx board against a reg. Even that is only true in pretty specific spots not that players play a lot more suited connectors and suited aces.

Anyway, T9 is very different from AK here, the key difference being that T9 beats AK, one of the key hands we're getting value from with a raise.

Anyway, I think a raise is close. Reads on CO other than he's bad? How likely is he to flat AK pre? How likely is he to call flop with KQ with no hearts? How likely is he to spazz shove over a raise as a bluff with missed hearts? Hard to put him on a calling range just with the read that he's bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surviva316

TReads on CO other than he's bad? How likely is he to flat AK pre? How likely is he to call flop with KQ with no hearts? How likely is he to spazz shove over a raise as a bluff with missed hearts? Hard to put him on a calling range just with the read that he's bad.

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villain is bb 44-0 small sample

Is it too late to delete my post?

You don't often see 44/0's vbetting TP on the river. Would like to know how small the sample.

I don't really see what hands he has that take this line then call a raise that we beat so I'd probably call expecting to see a bluff most of the time.

I'd raise, but only small and with some timing element to it, so that it looks fishy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gingerwizard

You don't often see 44/0's vbetting TP on the river. Would like to know how small the sample.

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28 hands

meh I'd call and take notes on his river lead.

No reason to think he wouldn't raise AK pf because of small sample. Just can't see many hands we beat getting this far and bet/calling river.

somewhere between $9 and $11 looks good

I want to raise 9-10, I don't know what the range of a 40/0 is for floating the flop but it's not stoping me getting value here. Plenty will call and little will raise, if he finds the fold button good for him, but If we don't raise we don't let him to make the mistake of calling, a mistake fish love to make. 2cents in.

meeeeeeehhh. I'm really tempted to just call here. Kx no hearts no pair just seems like an insane call on the flop, and AK will squeeze pre a lot for sure (I know, it seems like I'm giving 44/0 a lot of credit, but I think we have to discount a fair amount of combos just because those plays are non-standard even for fish).

I'm also mad paranoid that we'll get 3b by whiffed draws a non-zero percent of the time, which is holding me back from thin vbetting.

v-raising* ldo

Aren't 44/0's the same people that slowplay a set of 2's, 3's or 10's until the river? Don't they flat pre with KT and K9 (yes they do!)? Don't they call down every damn flush draw there is and bluff the missed river? Don't micros bluff every river where the original raiser checked the turn?

I just don't see what hand takes this line (other than MAYBE KQ and the more discounted AK) that doesn't fold to our raise, shove with a set or call a better two pair. I have trouble believing that raising is +EV.

Hands we beat that call: AK, KQ, KJ (36 combos total)
Hands that beat us that call/raise: 22, 33, 99, TT, KT, K9, QJ (36 combos total)

Obviously we're probably missing some hands that the fish could have in either range, but it's definitely a lot closer than I originally thought. Since it's so close and we're never going to fold out a better hand, I'll change my answer: call so we can take a note on how he played his cards.

Idk hes a fish! Like...hes bad...and we have two pair...so raise. If he was reggy i can see just calling for the reasons ppl are saying, but i just dont think a 44/0 deserves that kind of status.

I think a bet that gets more calls is best here...so smallish raise to 8

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NightGizmo

Hands we beat that call: AK, KQ, KJ (36 combos total)
Hands that beat us that call/raise: 22, 33, 99, TT, KT, K9, QJ (36 combos total)

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Yeah, I'd say once you weight those hands you get something like

Hands we beat that call: AK (12*.75=9), KQ (12*.5=6), KJ (12*.5=6) (21 combos)

Hands that beat us that call/raise: 22 (3*.5=1.5), 33 (3*.5=1.5), 99 (3), TT (3*.5=1.5), KT (6), K9hh (1), QJ (12*.5=6) (20.5 total combos)

All combos of lesser Kx that MIGHT call are more than balanced out by all the other combos of K9 and K3s/K2s.

I'd say that that's pretty fair and that that's pretty thin to get value out of with a raise if there's even a 1 in a million that he 3b shoves any whiffed cards.

I think this guys calling wider than the above ranges.
I vote for a raise to like 8.95

wtf bet turn

as played I just call and note it up

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NightGizmo

Hands we beat that call: AK, KQ, KJ (36 combos total)
Hands that beat us that call/raise: 22, 33, 99, TT, KT, K9, QJ (36 combos total)

Obviously we're probably missing some hands that the fish could have in either range, but it's definitely a lot closer than I originally thought. Since it's so close and we're never going to fold out a better hand, I'll change my answer: call so we can take a note on how he played his cards.

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Shouldn't we be including K2s and K3s here? Heck, K2o and K3o might even be in his range.

I probably just call and take note of his check turn lead-river line.

Bet that turn.

As played, I think we can raise small for value here. It's pretty close though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thelorax

I think this guys calling wider than the above ranges.
I vote for a raise to like 8.95

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Could you specify any other hands you think he's b/c'ing that I didn't account for? QQ?

i'd generally raise this to about 8. though, that said, i wouldn't know what to do vs a shove and that kind of makes me want to flat-call in case he ever does spastic stuff with missed hearts or even KQ. while we have the current best hand a lot of the time, there aren't a bunch of worse hands he can call with except for Kx. and he may only have the Kxhh. so the fear of ever being raised by worse hands, coupled with not being called TOO often by worse, makes me inclined to nit it up. i'm still raising though and expecting to be good most of the time he just calls, and expecting to vomit all of the times he shoves.

i gotta fix that "i think there's value there but i wouldn't know what to do vs a shove and that kind of makes me want to flat-call" thing. guess that means learning to read hands. interesting spot daven.

min raise/fold is cool cuz fish will just randomly bet any pair on the river at times and then never fold if raised small but if you make it any legitimate size then you narrow villains continuing range significantly to where it becomes questionable about whether or not you are value cutting yourself.

if villain bet larger i would just call but this half pot bet surely can be interpreted as any random piece without further information, or at the very least I think we should weight his range to being such. we should probably interpret a large bet more polarized between hands that beat us and air, until we are shown information contradicting this assumption.

there are however a ton of missed bullshit things in his range like all Ax, 54, 64 etc so ur prolly gonna get a fold a decent amount on the river. could easily get ace high calls though if u just click it back.

IT IS VERY CRUCIAL TO NOTICE THE POSITIONS HERE. BB COMPLETES AFTER A COLD CALLER AND HE IS A FISH: HIS RANGE GOING INTO THIS HAND IS SUPERRRRRRRRRR WIDE (prolly like 80% of hands or more)

villain K4hh - seems like general consensus that raising to $7-$9 sounds best, although calling isn't absolutely terrible either

For those with more experience, what's the value of calling and taking a note? Since we have a small sample on this guy, couldn't this note be worth much more than the smallish value we get from raising here rather than forcing a fold and not knowing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

villain K4hh - seems like general consensus that raising to $7-$9 sounds best, although calling isn't absolutely terrible either

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Lol, not sure why I put K9hh in his range and forgot all about other Kxhh hands. /facepalm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chusko

For those with more experience, what's the value of calling and taking a note? Since we have a small sample on this guy, couldn't this note be worth much more than the smallish value we get from raising here rather than forcing a fold and not knowing?

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Fish generally show up once, donate their stack and then you never see them again, so it's just a race to see which reg can get the most of their money. Notes on fish to get a general feel for their play is nice, but you shouldn't be passing up opportunities to get value off of them just so that you can be better prepared for a fairly specific spot in the future.

If this were like 100nl on Stars, and you're playing a reg that you're likely to play thousands of hands against over the next few months, then it gets to be possible that notes CAN be in certain spots more important than getting thin-ish value.

gotta raise, plenty of hands we beat will bet/call here against our line

raise/call vs. raise/fold would be interesting though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

villain K4hh

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did he call a raise with this? or you flatted?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rpm

did he call a raise with this? or you flatted?

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i thought about it and then called. Decided while thinking that this was a hand worth posting.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by surviva316

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Originally Posted by Mr.ShuShuGah

Who do you first approach when you are down? Your friends? Is it really impossible to live without them? Is it necessary to make friends in the first place?Firstly, friends can help you develop character. With their company, they are able to influence you to become similar like them. For example, a teenager hangs around with good friends that are interested in studying. When the teenager is having problems in studies, his friends are able to help with places he is in doubt. Friends are also able to give advice on how to study effectively and efficiently to spend enough time on studies and friends.

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Lastly, by making more friends, you are able to expand your contact list and this will help in the future when one is working. You may not know when these friends help you in your work.

However, there are times when friends are not necessary to live a good life.

Friends may not always be true friends. They may make friends because they are interested in your...

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