am i a fcking dumb nit?

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10-05-2011, 09:34 AM
Razvan729

am i a fcking dumb nit?

stepped down a gear cause variance kicked my balls all around last few days.

H1.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $6.72
UTG+1: $8.27
MP: $8.00
MP+1: $3.85
CO: $10.00
BTN: $11.00
Hero (SB): $10.00
BB: $4.00

UTG is 12/5 /60 in 300 hands w/ 3/70 hand open EP and 1% 3bet (1/78 hands)

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has K:spade: K:heart:

UTG raises to $0.30, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, UTG raises to $6.72 and is all-in, fold

UTG wins $2.10

am i stupid for folding here?

H2.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $3.85
BTN: $12.30
Hero (SB): $10.05
BB: $5.38
UTG: $10.79
UTG+1: $10.15
MP: $13.31
MP+1: $10.30

villain is 13/7/70 in 198 hands

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has 5:club: A:club:

UTG raises to $0.20, fold, MP calls $0.20, MP+1 calls $0.20, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.15, fold

Flop: ($0.90, 4 players) J:diamond: 7:spade: A:heart:
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, MP+1 checks

Turn: ($0.90, 4 players) 5:diamond:
Hero bets $0.55, fold, MP raises to $1.70, fold, fold

MP wins $1.91

what does he play like this that i beat?
10-05-2011, 10:17 AM
Zorkion

#1 looks a bit questionable. opp is pretty tight, but do you really expect him to not 5betshove ak/qq here? keep in mind that hes oop. adding qq to his range might be wrong, but if you had any reason to believe he might be slightly tilty, its not an uncommon move

#2, id say villains range on the turn is aa, 55, and maybe some suited ace diamonds, but thats more iffy. multiway from next to last position, i would be expecting any reg opp who flopped a set to start trying to build the pot then and there since its just so juicy. against looser opps, i would add some mid aces to their range, since you only bet about 1/2 pot after checking the flop, which to anyone holding something like at-a8, looks pretty weak. as played, fold looks fine given opp stats, and the fact that itll be a tricky situation to play on the river oop
10-05-2011, 11:08 AM
Hoopy

H1 - A very easy 3bet/call vs this halfstacking nit. Why would you fold?

H2 - This is usually something slowplayed, very rarely a bluff from a tighter player.
10-05-2011, 11:42 AM
Razvan729

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoopy

H1 - A very easy 3bet/call vs this halfstacking nit. Why would you fold?

H2 - This is usually something slowplayed, very rarely a bluff from a tighter player.

H1 thinking his 4bet range is only KK+ and i have no equity. those were my thoughts then based on stats and our positions plus that he has no reason to believe that i 3bet light .
10-05-2011, 11:55 AM
supa

I love the KK fold. I'm not ever folding here but I think it shows some massive discipline on your part.
10-05-2011, 12:05 PM
rpm

hand 1 - if you want to felt, 3bet and dont fold. if you don't think your hand is good enough to felt, flat-call and play a flop. someone who is so nitty seems like they're going to be really in jam/fold mode when faced with your 3b. if you think your hand is good enough to get in vs what you think he jams with, by all means 3b/call it off. if you think he only jams better, flat his open and make yourself some postflop $.

as for hand two, is this the same villain? or is it someone else for whom you forgot to include reads/stats?
10-05-2011, 12:19 PM
Razvan729

villain in H2 is 13/7/70 in 198 hands, wrote at H2 before " Hero posts SB"
10-05-2011, 12:20 PM
d0zer

3b/folding h1 is a disaster. If you think his stackoff range is that absurdly tight, then why even 3b? just call.

h2 I don't hate the fold
10-05-2011, 12:23 PM
Razvan729

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

3b/folding h1 is a disaster. If you think his stackoff range is that absurdly tight, then why even 3b? just call.

h2 I don't hate the fold

to my shame , i didnt look at villains stats or our positions when i made the 3bet, just seen KK so from instinict i 3bet, only when i seen the shove i realized his stats and mine/his position.
10-05-2011, 12:26 PM
rpm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razvan729

villain in H2 is 13/7/70 in 198 hands, wrote at H2 before " Hero posts SB"

my mistake. drunken forum posting "for the lose"
10-05-2011, 12:27 PM
d0zer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razvan729

to my shame , i didnt look at villains stats or our positions when i made the 3bet, just seen KK so from instinict i 3bet, only when i seen the shove i realized his stats and mine/his position.

as played I still wouldn't fold.
10-05-2011, 12:29 PM
rpm

yeah i think hand 2 is a good fold. can see no bluffs/semi-bluffs/worse-hand-value-raises in his range. (or very few, enough to make it a fold imo)
10-05-2011, 12:48 PM
celtic123

The fold in h1 pleases me greatly. May your bankroll spring forward and multiply.
Better to fold in a spot where your unsure than to not.
10-05-2011, 12:49 PM
baudib

I want to know why villain in H1 is playing shortstacked. And yeah if you're not fist-pumping to call this off why even 3-bet. I would just 3-bet and call.
10-05-2011, 12:51 PM
rpm

for what little it's worth (FWLIW), if i 3bet hand 1, i'm never folding. but i don't 3bet unless my plan is not to fold.
10-05-2011, 12:56 PM
Carroters

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtic123

The fold in h1 pleases me greatly. May your bankroll spring forward and multiply.
Better to fold in a spot where your unsure than to not.

No.
10-05-2011, 12:58 PM
Carroters

This guy isn't even full stacked in H1. 3 bet/folding is a disaster both as played and in principle relating to the 3 bet/fold line imo.

H2 seems fine.
10-05-2011, 01:40 PM
Razvan729

yep, i was pretty sure H1 was never a fold. maybe the last days with variance in my tail made more caucios then i should be.

would anything change if in H1 was full stack? would we consider a fold then? or if we had 1000 hands on him and his stats were the same?

out of curiosity, do we ever consider folding KK pre in lowstakes? do we ever consider folding KK pre, if yes vs who in what conditions?

in this spot, what's your line vs this villain, 3bet/call or flat call?
10-05-2011, 02:49 PM
eugmac

i'm pretty sure i've never folded KK pre.
10-05-2011, 03:28 PM
ColdDecked

I guess if you get cold 5bet like 300bb+ deep from a nit you'd consider it.
10-05-2011, 04:02 PM
daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razvan729

am i stupid for folding here?

stupid for 3-betting and then folding for 60bb effective in this spot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razvan729

what does he play like this that i beat?

not much, he mostly has AJ/JJ/77
fold looks good. Look at preflop again in this hand. I'm not saying it's necessarily good or bad, but think about it at least.
10-05-2011, 04:22 PM
PKKFW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razvan729

out of curiosity, do we ever consider folding KK pre in lowstakes? do we ever consider folding KK pre, if yes vs who in what conditions?

I've considered folding KK pre. Once to a cold 4 bet shove and once to a limp re-raise all in. Both times I did the math afterwards and found I didn't have the odds to call in either case, even after assigning them a generous range. Oh and of course both times villain had AA! lol

Lesson learned: If I ever consider folding KK pre again I will take every last second of the clock to try to work out my odds and ranges etc before just jamming the call button! :)

Oh and H1 I'd be calling all day and twice on Sunday.
H2 I'd like to say I'd fold and I think that is the right move but I must admit I probably would have called it off.
10-05-2011, 04:27 PM
eugmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKKFW

I've considered folding KK pre. Once to a cold 4 bet shove and once to a limp re-raise all in. Both times I did the math afterwards and found I didn't have the odds to call in either case, even after assigning them a generous range. Oh and of course both times villain had AA! lol

Lesson learned: If I ever consider folding KK pre again I will take every last second of the clock to try to work out my odds and ranges etc before just jamming the call button! :)

Oh and H1 I'd be calling all day and twice on Sunday.
H2 I'd like to say I'd fold and I think that is the right move but I must admit I probably would have called it off.

What is this "generous range" you speak of, out of curiousity?
10-05-2011, 04:47 PM
PKKFW

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugmac

What is this "generous range" you speak of, out of curiousity?

In both cases I gave a range of QQ+, AK

In both cases I failed to see how big a stack villain had and how much I needed to call.(besides that it was AI) I've learned to pay a bit more attention to those things since then.
10-05-2011, 04:55 PM
eugmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKKFW

In both cases I gave a range of QQ+, AK

In both cases I failed to see how big a stack villain had and how much I needed to call.(besides that it was AI) I've learned to pay a bit more attention to those things since then.

please explain fold when that is the range you give them.

Code:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 215,750,304 games 0.447 secs 482,662,872 games/sec Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 42.809% 40.24% 02.57% 86815812 5545566.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo } Hand 1: 57.191% 54.62% 02.57% 117843360 5545566.00 { KK }
10-06-2011, 01:16 AM
Razvan729

so, everyone agrees that, no matter stakes and villains stats/sample size, KK is never a fold 100bb deep?
10-06-2011, 01:36 AM
baudib

If his range is KK+ you can fold.
10-06-2011, 02:21 AM
PKKFW

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugmac

please explain fold when that is the range you give them.

Looking at that I can only assume the range I gave them at the time was KK+ and AK rather than QQ+

What I do remember clearly was when I did the math afterwards I didn't have anywhere near the equity to make it a call. However, in hindsight I was probably being unduly influenced by already knowing they had AA.

The two hands sort of stuck in my head because during the hand I did contemplate folding KK for a brief second before thinking "only AA beats me so stick it in" rather taking a few seconds to think about it and really assign a proper range during play.
10-06-2011, 03:11 AM
Razvan729

Quote:

Originally Posted by baudib

If his range is KK+ you can fold.

that's obvious, but to whom can we assign that range if my villain in H1 is not a good candidate for that range? what his stats should be , so that we can assign him KK+?
10-06-2011, 05:01 AM
eugmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKKFW

Looking at that I can only assume the range I gave them at the time was KK+ and AK rather than QQ+

What I do remember clearly was when I did the math afterwards I didn't have anywhere near the equity to make it a call. However, in hindsight I was probably being unduly influenced by already knowing they had AA.

The two hands sort of stuck in my head because during the hand I did contemplate folding KK for a brief second before thinking "only AA beats me so stick it in" rather taking a few seconds to think about it and really assign a proper range during play.

Take 2 seconds and stove KK+, AK vs KK. Still a call.
10-06-2011, 05:59 AM
PKKFW

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugmac

Take 2 seconds and stove KK+, AK vs KK. Still a call.

So it would seem.

I don't know what I range I put in then as the way I remember it, it was no where near a call. It had to have been KK+ and AKs at the widest and may have been KK+ only. Which, with hindsight is probably too narrow a range anyway and so my call isn't really as bad as I thought.

Having said that, I still clearly remember not giving the decision any real thought during the hand and that's never a good way to play.
10-06-2011, 08:56 AM
Micro2Macro

for 1: lol yes
10-06-2011, 04:47 PM
daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razvan729

so, everyone agrees that, no matter stakes and villains stats/sample size, KK is never a fold 100bb deep?

i disagree with this proposition, it is ridiculous. It is however very rare that folding KK pre for 100bb is a good play though.
10-06-2011, 06:29 PM
Miffed22001

for 67bbs im not folding Kk pre ever
10-06-2011, 08:10 PM
rpm

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

i disagree with this proposition, it is ridiculous. It is however very rare that folding KK pre for 100bb is a good play though.

precisely.