KKvs lag

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08-06-2011, 11:08 AM
Vinland

KKvs lag

Villain is 39/19/7 AF over 43 hands
In a 3bet pot does anyone ever fold this to his raise or go for it like I did?

I put him on a range of 55+ b/c he is aggro. Vs a 21/4/1.5 Af type player I can fold to this but I have a hard time vs a lag

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP2 ($5)
villain (MP3) ($8.25)
CO ($15.10)
Hero (Button) ($5)
SB ($5.77)
BB ($5.31)
UTG ($5.37)
UTG+1 ($3.30)
MP1 ($12.50)
Preflop: Hero is Button with K:spade:, K:diamond:
4 folds, villain bets $0.12, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, villain calls $0.28
Flop: ($0.87) 5:spade:, 6:club:, 8:spade: (2 players)
villain checks, Hero bets $0.70, villain raises to $1.40, Hero raises to $3.30, villain raises to $5.20, Hero calls $1.30 (All-In)
Turn: ($10.07) 6:diamond: (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($10.07) J:spade: (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $10.07 | Rake: $0.50
08-06-2011, 11:18 AM
Shotglass

Never folding. :shipit: collect $$$ from QQ :dance:

Edit: or lick wounds from AA or bad beat with set of jacks; reload and get his stack later
08-06-2011, 12:41 PM
Nekrogovner

Flop action awfully stinks like made set, or high overpair. I discount AA since he didn't 4bet pre. I suppose he could drool like this with QQ-99. I jam it and cry.
08-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Shotglass

I'd discount a made set more than AA on the flop, but both are in his range if we think he'll call a pf 3bet with low to mid pp.
08-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Nekrogovner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotglass

I'd discount a made set more than AA on the flop.

Why is that? 95% of the time I saw this action on the flop villain happily showed a set. Other 5% is usually pure stupidity.
08-06-2011, 01:08 PM
Shotglass

So, since the hero didn't have a made set you're implying that he's stupid?

Seriously though, both sets and AA are in his range, but due to pf action I'd discount 55 and 66 more than AA. So otf he beats us if he has one of these hands AA, 88, 66, 55, 7-4 or 7-9. Unless I'm being stupid, and I might because I don't know his fold to 3bet%, he prolly isn't going to open 74 or 79 or call a 3bet with 55, 66. If he did then, oh well and make a note that he calls 3bets op and against the odds.

There are many more possible combinations and is so much more spew and spaz crap in his range than just those hands that beat us.
08-06-2011, 01:13 PM
Miffed22001

Against given player the only flop i dont like is one that has an Ace - anything else im getting all the money in fast

Sure sometimes he'll have good equity or flop a set - but the jamming is def +ev
08-06-2011, 01:55 PM
Nekrogovner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotglass

So, since the hero didn't have a made set you're implying that he's stupid?

Where did I imply that?
I said jam it and cry.
08-06-2011, 03:00 PM
eugmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

Where did I imply that?
I said jam it and cry.

wtf? I jam and feel great about it. I might even be laughing maniacally.
08-06-2011, 03:10 PM
Zorkion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Villain is 39/19/7 AF over 43 hands

I put him on a range of 55+ b/c he is aggro.

This.

villain is known aggro, and having to call .28 when hero's stack is ~4.60 is not awful, given that the implied odds are right for it. Also, given his table image, he probably figures that when he spikes his set, hes gonna get paid off more often than your normal tag reg. opp has ~16:1 to call for set mining. oop it loses some value of course, but imho, 3bettors can tend to stack themselves on dry flops with overpairs

also, since villain is lag, it seems more likely to assume that 55/66 are in fact more likely othan AA, since were gonna expect opp to reraise over hero's 3bet more often when hes got the rockets.

but anyways....stoving it we get

hero (kk): 59.016%
villain (55+): 40.984%

so unless theres suddenly a negative amount of $$ in the pot, snap call.

my question though is why not just reraise villains flop raise to 4.6$$ and be done with it? youre not folding when he shoves, and you get extra fold equity vs AA, maaaaaybe even bottom set, but that might be pushing it.
08-06-2011, 03:16 PM
Shotglass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

Where did I imply that?
I said jam it and cry.

Maybe I missed the word "villain":drunk:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

Why is that? 95% of the time I saw this action on the flop villain happily showed a set. Other 5% is usually pure stupidity.
08-06-2011, 03:26 PM
Shotglass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorkion

my question though is why not just reraise villains flop raise to 4.6$$ and be done with it? youre not folding when he shoves, and you get extra fold equity vs AA, maaaaaybe even bottom set, but that might be pushing it.

Why would you want to fold out all of the garbage in his hands that you do beat?
By shoving you're practically forcing him to play correctly against your hand, either he's got your range beat or he folds. By re-raising like that when we are strong against his range and he so aggressive, we allow him one more opportunity to bluff it off.

Eidt: (but I'm numb from about 1/3 bottle of jack and just being blonde so wtf do i know)
08-06-2011, 03:48 PM
Nekrogovner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotglass

Maybe I missed the word "villain":drunk:

Okay, we have misunderstanding, lets start from a beginning.

Situation:
Villain is fishy/donkey/laggy and raises pre.
Hero holds high PP like AA or KK. Hero happily 3bet preflop.
Villain calls.
Flop comes some low card garbage like 258.
Hero bets, villain raises, hero reraises, villain reraises, hero reraises, villain... well they should be allin soon.
Villain shows 88.

What I was saying is, that if you run in 1000 situations like this one, 900 times villain will show up with set. These other 100 times he will show up with overpair (but fishy villains are most likely to bet these stronger or ship it), and very rarely with two pair or top pair.
08-06-2011, 09:52 PM
bikes

would call c/r and call and turn and river
08-06-2011, 10:51 PM
bikes

actually am torn between call call and shipping now

both are fine i think.
08-07-2011, 12:30 AM
Zorkion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotglass

Why would you want to fold out all of the garbage in his hands that you do beat?
By shoving you're practically forcing him to play correctly against your hand, either he's got your range beat or he folds. By re-raising like that when we are strong against his range and he so aggressive, we allow him one more opportunity to bluff it off.

Eidt: (but I'm numb from about 1/3 bottle of jack and just being blonde so wtf do i know)

I was thinking about that, but I think the board is perfect for the rrshove. odds are he has an overpair to the board (by hand combos), and with each extra card that comes out, youre raising the chances that he gets scared out of the pot.

eg., hero holds kk, villain holds TT

flop comes 568, hero bets, villain raises, hero raises, villain calls.

turn comes q, hero shoves with remaining stack, villain thinks for a bit, then folds.

i know its a bit silly in this example for villain to fold turn with so much in the pot already, but what im trying to show is that by doing so, were maximizing our fold equity vs hands we beat when scare cards come out for villain.