Breaking news: Alderney suspends Full Tilt's operating licence | eGaming Review
...awkward
Printable View
All games stopped
My FTP client can't connect to the server. I'm in Germany.
Ya, they're completely down.
Oh bugger!
Wonder if Howard's ready to comment yet:
Howard Lederer Sighting In Las Vegas QuadJacks Poker News | Quadjacks | Poker Radio | Poker Videos
FYPQuote:
Originally Posted by reDZill4
sucks for everyone =(
This is so fucking terrible for what is left of online poker.
makes me sick
wheeeeeeeeee. was getting used to the positive news that was coming out and then wake up this morning to play and see that. wp alderney, wp.
my optimistic side hopes that FT will move their servers under the jurisdiction of kahnawake and continue operating while still seeking out an investor. maybe alderney's actions were right from the regulatory point of view, but it fucks the players over hard because that makes it even less likely somebody will invest in the company. the majority of people that are playing at FT dont know about all the stuff that is going on, and while it is dishonest, the longer the general public is able to stay ignorant and keep playing, the better it is for FT and for the players.
i strongly believe that as long as the site is able to operate smoothly, we will get our money back because they will generate money and are likely to find an investor. in order for this not to be a huge blow to their business, they need to get their servers back up asap and likely place a limit on withdrawals so there isnt an even larger run on the bank.
^^With FTP's current license in Alderney in suspension do you really think that ANY other jurisdiction will even consider granting FTP even a temporary licence until after the decisions in Alderney have been finalized? If so, then I'd like some of what you're smoking..
My biggest concern currently (aside from getting player's funds returned ldfo) is 'how will this affect support for HR2366?'
http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userf...n%20290611.pdf
no play deposits/withdrawals until hearing scheduleed for late july
Lol, yes. Do you know how sketchy many of these island tax havens are? UB/Absolute havent lost their licenses for all the shit they pulled and are definitely in a worse financial position than FT currently is in. So yea, I am sure that there are some "regulatory" bodies out there that dont act with as high standards as others. If there arent, FT could send some cash to help create one. They may not be able to pay out all players, but they arent broke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shotglass
While that ^^ may be true, the point that i was trying to make is that Alderney is considered one of the weakest licensing organizations in the UK. If they found enough to suspend FTP's license then I doubt that any of the stronger licensing organizations will consider them for a while.
kahnawake poker rooms aren't allowed to advertise in the uk, so guess they are considered weaker regulaters .
not like this is really any surprise
CLIFFS: You want the company to be able to continue to fuck over ignorant people on the small chance they'll use the ignorant ppl's money to pay you back.Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
no. i think people are panicking like crazy, and obv it is understandable why, but everybody cashing out immediately does nothing to actually help them cashout. FT is run horribly, we all know that now and if we had known that before then I am sure that less people would be playing there; however, that wasnt the case and we didnt realize this until it was too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
right now FT is short on cash and cannot immediately pay back Int'l or US players in a timely fashion [I have a cashout that has been pending for 3 weeks, others have cashouts pending for longer], but i strongly believe that they are in fact trying to find investors so that they are able to make things as right as they can. if everybody cashouts out and stops playing there two things will happen, 1. they arent actually going to get that cashout because they arent clearing in reasonable timeframes, and 2. the larger the debt and the lower the player base the less likely they are to find an investor willing to take over the debts
this isnt trying to fuck anybody over in the least, and people need to realize that a run on the bank doesnt help anybody BECAUSE THEY CANT PAY US RIGHT NOW. yea it sucks, if they were processing the next X transactions only and i wished people didnt know about it so I could get a spot in the queue then i would be taking advantage of those people, but if they simply arent processing transactions right now, then i am not taking advantage of anybody and by saying people should continue to play there it is helping everybody get paid back, regardless of the amount of information those individual players have.
simply put, nobody is going to get their money quickly, so it isnt an option of quitting and getting your money or continuing to play and not get it. the options are quit and maybe get your money in >1 month and decrease the sites' revenues making it less likely they can actually pay, or play during that time to help generate revenue for the site so more people can get paid
funny how ftp website says its down for maintenance. Jokerstars here i comez.
Withdrew my BR from FTP after BF as fast as I could. Managed to withdraw everything in a few weeks. With $0 in my account, I converted some FTPs and ironman medals to $50 cash game tickets and ran my roll up to $2.4k. Made a withdrawal request to neteller for the full amount (still pending). Account was at $0 again. Converted more FTPs to cash game tickets and ran my roll up to $2.1k (still on my account).
Was fun but probably all for nothing, sigh.
I thought it was surprising one of these gaming commissions actually had the power to shut an online poker room down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
According to the commission's statement, FTP cannot:Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
- Register new customers;
Accept deposits from existing customers;
Allow existing customers to withdraw funds that are held in their accounts; and
Permit customers to participate in any form of poker game play or gambling transaction.
so there's no rush of people trying to cash out right now :P
Here's a link to the press release:http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userf...n%20290611.pdf
I guess this is where we differ. I've never understood why people feel it's a realistic scenario that an investor will swoop in and contribute funds to pay debts that were effectively borrowed in order to burn. What would this individual be buying? Certainly not a brand; it was seriously tarnished even before this. Not a player pool...a not-insignificant percentage of FTP players are just interested in getting their cash and moving it somewhere else or getting out of poker altogether until rosier times. There are no other assets to speak of.Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
http://www.subjectpoker.com/wp-conte...ack-binion.png
You gotta BELIEVE.
The software, the Rush Poker patent.Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
Originally Posted by boost
Yea, a lot of the regs want to cash out, but they cant. I guarantee that if an investor came in and allowed things to go back to normal [i.e. fast cashouts] and provided new management, then more people would stick around. Further, even if all regs leave, that will still leave a huge player base and the games will be incredibly soft. At that point, if regs feel like their money is safe, which it likely would be under new management and with a significant investment, then many would return to play this super fishy player pool. Even after all this stuff has gone down, FT was still almost 3x larger than party poker. To say that they dont have a player base to invest in is foolish. They have a huge player pool even if thousands of regs leave, and that is worth a lot of money under the right management and as Boost said, they have valuable patents that are also worth money to other site operators.
There are definitely investors out there that will buy the company, they just need the right terms and FT has been unwilling to accept those terms, but this very well could be what was needed to get them to accept a new majority stakeholder in the company.
I feel kind of shocked that it finally happened, but I agree that it was inevitable. I am honestly surprised that so many people continued to play there even when they knew they weren't paying back Americans. And then people STILL played after Ivey sued his own site. Whatever the case, I hope that Americans and everyone else can still get their money back eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
The software likely isn't something that can't be developed or purchased more cheaply (ie. for less than the amount of debt outstanding + risk) from other vendors but you have something with the Rush patent.Quote:
Originally Posted by boost
Again though, if I'm an investor interested in that patent, all I have to do is wait for this company to fold and I can pick it up without the accompanying brand headache.
Give up on the investor idea, imo.
Right, but how many were still playing because they couldn't get their money out?Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Say this all gets sorted out and everyone gets their money off of FT in a few months time. There are so many alternative rooms and so few restrictions for the remaining players to move money between them, what is a room's player base but a reflection of the loyalty of the customers? Do they still have that? Will they still have that after this?
You're American. I get that you are seeing it from the perspective of what's best for the players and the best hope for getting your money back. But look at this from an investor's perspective and you'll find the upside hard to come by.
Benny, how much do you know about software development and the costs associated with it?
I'm not saying that its a snap easy investment... obv it's not. But I think the issue that is keeping an investment from happening is that Bitar, Lederer, etc, are being unreasonable in the terms they expect an investor to agree to. I think with the right terms the value is obviously there.
If I never see my br again, it's not the end of the world to me.. I'll keep on keepin on and shit will be fine for me. So I don't think I'm being overly optimistic because of that bias. But to be clear, I don't think it's anywhere near a lock that a deal will be made.. I just think there's a greater than insignificant chance that there will be a buyout that results in payouts.
More than I know about how much FTP owes players in total so the math would be incomplete anyway. The point was simply that the software isn't a unique asset so no reason it should be worth more than the cost of development.Quote:
Originally Posted by boost
Oh, I agree with that. I just think that Bitar et al fleeing with whatever they made since BF is more likely than those right (read: cheap) terms being accepted. They can't do both.Quote:
Originally Posted by boost
To sum up, I'm just saying that it's probably healthier to count the money as lost and on the slim chance you get it, freeroll hookers and fine chocolates, than to place significant hopes on a Hero investor.
Partypoker had $170mm in revenue from poker in 2010 and they are a third of the size of fulltilt poker post-black friday. FT could lose 2/3 of their customers and be about the size of party. Using a conservative multiplier, this would still be a billion dollar company even when figuring in $150mm in debts. When the vast majority of full tilt users have no idea about the issues, I dont know how anybody can say that having an investor swoop in and SAVE the company would cause them to lose more than 2/3 of their users. I can understand people leaving because FT left a bad taste in their mouths, but it would simply not be rational to leave a company once it got new management and became solvent.Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
A lot of investors stay away from distressed companies, but many others deal specifically with them and FT is no different than many other companies. This is one that has huge revenues and even if they lose the majority will continue to have huge revenues, and regardless of what you may think, they have a strong brand. FT will not get anywhere near their "true" valuation, but that doesnt mean it wouldnt be a significant amount of money and enough for Bitar to leave the company, especially with all the pressure he is surely feeling now.
Yes, I am an American who has a vested interest in getting paid back, and I have many friends with significantly more money than me on there and dont want to see them lose that either. However, I am also reasonably unbiased when it comes to business and others with the same objective understanding of business should realize that FT could stand to lose a huge amount of their player base and still be worth a significant amount of money. They are in a shitty position, thats clear, but things could get worse and they would still be a desirable investment under the right terms.
Even after the black friday, how much do you assume that FTP earned each day on rake? Based on player pool of 80k players during peak 8 hours, I would assume that at least 1M$ of rake is generated each day. Or that seems too bold of an assumption?Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I'm not a businessman but seems like a good idea to invest into something like that.
Investing in FTP and keep playing on FTP are two different things. I'd be way more likely to invest in FTP at buy the company at a sick price on a gambool, than to keep playing and possibly only getting a fraction of my dollars earned. So ofc it's likely someone will step in and buy it at a discount, but that doesn't mean I should keep playing there and expect to get just a fraction of my earnings. It's just not worth it imo, and it means putting a lot of faith into head management of FTP which are clearly crooks. To keep on playing on FTP just to make it look like an attractive investment for anyone willing to save it is a bit naive imo.
Meh, I mean I dont disagree and think I am being overly optimistic, but at the same time, if you cannot cashout and really cant play at other sites [certain draw games, rush poker, superturbos, etc], i dont see what other options you haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
Also, Full Tilt Looks to the KGC | Subject: Poker
Yes, but how many deal in saving internet-based businesses with few tangible assets in an oddly regulated and somewhat shady environment, no liquid cash to pay debts, a current inability to operate and earn revenue and pending legal bills out the wazoo? It's a unique situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
It's a tough looking environment just given what we know and there's so much that we don't know. How many other creditors are out there, aside from having to pay back player balances? This is particularly concerning, imo. Will well-known pros continue to associate with FTP? This had much to do with the brand for the casual player. We know Ivey won't. Stars would be smart to snatch these guys up asap.
As for the quick $1M/day math guy, if it were that simple, it would have been purchased by now. GM made $400M a day in 2008. Did that make them a 400x no-doubt good buy?
yea i know you had a pretty good reason to keep playing on thereQuote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
but say they got their license back tmr, i still believe your time is better spent doing something else. it's still poker and there's a bunch of other sites
well I mean, between stars and tilt I think ftp was clearly doomed and was only a matter of time for something like this to come upQuote:
Originally Posted by lolzzz_321
meh its a big, multi-billion dollar industry, and FTP is still a good brand with decent value. If a reputable company buys it and we get rid of current upper management, ppl will come back to it for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
id say there is lots of interest if it goes on sale
Supposedly, they've been trying to raise capital for months with no success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
obv depends on the conditions, raise capital is pretty vague
and no deal yet doesn't mean there isn't interest in it
buying out distressed companies is a very interesting topic actually, and i'm sure none of us even come close to understand the factors involved.
someone like Taipan who deals with private equity might have some experience with that, maybe..
i doubt anyone spending their time in ftr commune has sufficient knowledge on mergers and aquariums
UB and Absolute had new management after the super user scandals. Look at them now. Whose to say FTP would be any different?Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
I remember Negreanu saying it's the same pplQuote:
Originally Posted by reDZill4
Phil Tom and Scott Tom are the founders of UB/Absolute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
Scott is one of Full Tilts managers and Phil is one of the majority owners of Full Tilt.
Brand still has value to the fish (the people who really matter.) That's still got to be worth a few million. You could bring in someone to clean up the credibility problem (like Lee Jones.)Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I would estimate the cost of getting a poker platform up from scratch hiring in Silicon Valley to be under 10 million, maybe even under 5 million. The hardest part by far is the payment platform and security end of it, even with the full cooperation of US banks.
:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
that is not very promising news...
I suppose we should start ratholing poker sites: buy chips, grind, withdraw at end of the session. Rinse and repeat. :D
QuadJacks said in early May $200M for half the company. No idea if true, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
That number plummeted quite quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I still bet Cereus pays out before FTP. Takers?
Strange how rush poker still advertizez here.
as someone pointed out somewhere else, tracerouteing to Full Tilt Poker - Learn from the Pros takes you past mohaw.ca addresses, so I'd say they're more than considering being licensed by kahnaspellingnightmanrewake and it's underway.
from all the stuff that came out around BF, it seems like that is not the caseQuote:
Originally Posted by reDZill4
Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
lol what? maybe i got leveled, but thats definitely not trueQuote:
Originally Posted by reDZill4
You're right. I did a second google search and it turns out that my initial research was false. Although, wtf is with POTRIPPER still running UB?
The problem is that either last year or in 2009 the KGC signed an agreement with AGCC to honor each other's rulings. If FTP gets a license from the KGC then is that license, or any of the other KGC licenses, really worth anything since they don't recognize their previous agreements?Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiMark
Edit: The actual agreement (memorandum of understanding) was reached in 2010 and the details are not public. Here's a link about FTP's move on pokerfuse:
Full Tilt Poker's Site Moved to Kahnawake Mohawk Territory | Pokerfuse Online Poker News
Cereus is never paying out. Never. They lost like 97% of their business, they're in debt several times over, and nobody will buy them out. I'd be lucky to get my money off there within twenty years. The DoJ are the biggest thieves the world ever knewQuote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
FTP might pay. If they reopen and lose half of their post-BF business, they're still in a much better position than Cereus ever was
It seems pretty unlikely that Cereus can pay their portion of the $3B fine the DOJ is seeking, even if it's settled down to a smaller number. I doubt we'll ever see them, or that money, again.Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
On a slight upside, lot of skins have upped their rakeback. Everyone's battling for FT's ex-playerpool.
that's good news.
weeeeeeeeee looks like we may have just hit runner runner perfect.
Two Plus Two Poker Forums - View Single Post - New player in town
This Deu3es guy is making this whole thing fun to watch. Omnomnom popcorn.
Class action suit against FTP: Scribd
2+2 link: **New Lawsuit**Steve Segal, Nick Hammer , Robin Hougdahl and Todd Terry v. Full Tilt Poker - Poker News - News, Views and Gossip
pretty sick that they are rico'ing it, inb4 team full tilt flees the country
I wonder if I can Cereusly do this? Think of the threads I can start!
It could be considerably less. The real question is "how quickly do you want it?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Yes, "a poker platform" can be whipped together... but a quality one? I mean, PokerStars is probably the second best software, and it is lightyears behind FTP.
Anyways, FTP's French license was just revoked... Any good news seems to be paired with equally bad or worse news..