25nl vs nit

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP3 ($10.53)
CO ($25.51)
Button ($25)
SB ($33.77)
BB ($18)
Hero (UTG) ($26)
UTG+1 ($12.54)
MP1 ($30)
MP2 ($15.34)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/ks.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/kc.gif
Hero bets $0.75, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, 1 fold, CO raises to $3.75, 3 folds,

Hero?



i am used from 2/5/10 nl to 4bet shove KK pre, but at 25nl i encountered lots of times AA and it may be a coincidence or i should stop 4bet shove KK vs anyone pre.

CO is 10/6 AFq 23 over 134 hands, no 3bets until now and havent seen him at SD by now.

MP1 is a unknown , won a small pot w/ vs MP2 with a TT
MP2 is a fish that folds a lot to 3bet and always floating flop IP

i was running tight and havent done anything stupid, seen me one time at SD when i got rivered by a flush w/ a flopped 99 set.

when CO 3bets, i put him on QQ+, AK for sure and i think he could squeeze w/ TT,JJ, AQ maybe.

my options are flat and keep his range wide but also can aspect calls from MP1, 4bet/ fold as i dont think CO 5bets less then KK+ or 4bet shove.

so vs a villain w/ CO stats and no reads, what would you do in this spot? 4bet/fold , 4bet shove or flat his 3bet?

if we flat what do we do on 9 high rainbow flop?

Take this with a grain of salt as I'm still playing 10nl but..........

I don't like mucking around with K's and if you are right that MP1 would call if you flat that is just making things trickier on the flop so I'd take 4bet/fold option considering you think it unlikely he 5bets less than KK+.

As for the flop, what's his cbet%? If high I might check the 9 high rainbow and give him a chance to cbet and then shove. Otherwise I think I'd donk bet pot and see what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

at 25nl i encountered lots of times AA and it may be a coincidence or i should stop 4bet shove KK vs anyone pre.

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Why are you letting past hands affect the way you play this hand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shotglass

Why are you letting past hands affect the way you play this hand?

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you are right, but like i said before, maybe you havent read it, it's my 4th try to beat 25nl, last 3 times i went broke and every time went back to 5/10nl and grinded back to 25nl. i am confident on 5 ( 14bb/100) and 10 ( 8bb/100), but on 25nl i am very unsure about my play because of the failed last 3 attempts, now i managing 4bb/100 w/9k hands, but i am still very very unsecure about my decisions.

i may post some other hands that may seem easy , but i kind of need a confidence boost for my 25nl play.

a lot of times i question myself if i could have evoided some lost hands even if i had enough equity vs his range or if i could have gotten more value from my hand like spots the one posted here.

Yeah, I've read your posts on that before, Raz.

KK is one of those hands that I want to get it in pre. The times that I run into AA will be more than compensated by the times that some moron calls with AJ+ or worse pp and doesn't draw an A or set and the times that I shove and everyone folds.

IMO, on your posted hand I'd 4bet to about $9.25 and call a shove. If the co 5bets to about 15-ish then shove.

if you flat and get a 9 high rainbow then I'd get it in otf.

Well I am not so sure. There are a few times you don't want to get it in with KK pre. There are even a few very rare times where it is pretty much correct to lay down KK pre.

The guy has 6PFR and no 3b over 134 hands. So it's unlikely he 3b AK imo.

Now he 3b vs 3 opps. Looks tremendously strong to me.

I see 4b/fold to $8-$9 as a decent option. Hate flatting the 3b OOP.

true, villain has no 3bet in 134 hands, but his VPIP is 10 so he played 13-14 hands from which 8 he was the PFR and the rest was CCPF, so that leaves 4 hands which he could have 3 bet but didnt, that's damn low, cause he might just didnt have any hand to 3bet with.

even the AFq is not that important cause it's over a 13-14 hands played.

in this spot, i find that he could easily 3bet QQ+,AK cause no one ever wanna see a flop w/ a hand like that 4way, with UTG opening, one unknow MP1 and a fish MP2,even if IP. i also consider squeezing here w/ TT,JJ,AQs.any of this, my KK is way ahead of his 3bet range.
the question is what does a nit like him flat vs a 4bet and what does he 5bet or what does he call my 4bet shove?
take in consideration that i play a very tight game in 25nl, that table i was running if i rem well, like 8/7 and not aggro at all, so he has no reason to think my 4bet range includes crap in it.

4bet/fold also seems a very good option in my opinion, but i am not sure is the best.

i would really like an opinion from more experienced players at these stakes or higher w/ no offence for the ones that already answered. i have respect for all of your opinions.

@ daviddem - yeah, man - i see your point and completely respect it, but the guy's move looks too much like a squeeze for me to think that we need to do anything other than 4bet & shove - reload if necessary. I still think that the times that I'm called and lose will be more than compensated by the times everyone folds or the KK holds up.

I'd be interested in seeing some numbers that could show otherwise.

Well, we haven't got set mining odds, even if AA always stacks off on a K-high flop. But only once have I ever flat called KK with set-mining intentions (folded it to a raggy flop cbet and villain showed AA, BOOM!).

I'm not folding this, no way. Villain's raise seems rather large for AA. Ok, he might be trying to deny smaller pairs set mining odds, but still this looks like QQ more than AA. I'm pretty much happy to stack off here and if he has AA, whatever, I put it down as a cooler and reload, maybe make a note about his 3bet sizing with the bullets.

I have around 15k hands at 25s, but I wasn't winning, so take my post for what it's worth. Obviously at 10s this is never a fold, so my opinion may be flawed. I think even thinking about folding this is pretty sick, to be honest.

4b/call > flat his 3b > 4b/fold



edit: 4b/call > flat his 3b >>>>>> 4b/fold

never thought to fold to the 3bet, maybe to a 5bet the thought crossed my mind. the more i think about it, rpm is right.


i did flat the 3bet, MP1 and MP2 folded...


flop was 459r.... i bet around 2/3 pot CO instant shove... with QQ+ in his shoving range i am 50/50, so i called... played ok?

As played, I make the flop call rather uncomfortably. I think QQ+ is the right range, which gives us 50% equity. I probably put villain on QQ/KK more often than AA anyway due to his large 3bet pre, but this could be a mistake. Still, our equity against QQ+ means we're calling this. We can only fold if villain has KK+.

disclaimer... I'm a losing 25s player. If solid 25s players are saying villain's range is KK+, then this is a tough spot, but we should probably fold pre, not on the flop. I just can't do that with KK in this spot.

4bet/barf call is my gut - with all the dead money you will see AK/QQ enough that getting all in pre will not just be AA - however i would call if it wasnt so likely you will go to a 3+ way flop - and that should be our default play not 4bet/call.

In addition if we go multiway we have to act immediatly after the squeeze bet which is not a good spot to be in hence why 4bet > call IMO as the players behind us are likely only set hunting so bet, call raise makes us barf as well

The scary bit here - when you opponent is just playing the cards in front of him...do you just fold preflop....?

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

The scary bit here - when you opponent is just playing the cards in front of him...do you just fold preflop....?

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i think you mean here what do i do if he plays just the 2 cards in his hand w/o thinking of my ranges and my play, but i am not sure so gonna ask you to elaborate a little what you wanna say cause i dont wanna misunderstand something. ( sorry, but i am not a native english speaker)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

Hero bets $0.75, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, 1 fold, CO raises to $3.75, 3 folds,

Hero?

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Bet size def looks like squeeze, he could easily do that with AK, QQ+ (maybe even TT+). I don't mind shoving/4betting here, since you don't actually have a big sample size on the villain. You might wanna check if he is a (mass) multitabling reg. These are usually transparent and will give you a good clue about their holdings preflop, once you get to know them a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daviddem

Well I am not so sure. There are a few times you don't want to get it in with KK pre. There are even a few very rare times where it is pretty much correct to lay down KK pre.

The guy has 6PFR and no 3b over 134 hands. So it's unlikely he 3b AK imo.

Now he 3b vs 3 opps. Looks tremendously strong to me.

I see 4b/fold to $8-$9 as a decent option. Hate flatting the 3b OOP.

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+ for me. Don't like the stats. Low stats like that are rare and although 134 hands is not crazy stats, it is the best info you got. If you don't believe someone with stats like that, who will you believe?

I'll take the 4bet fold and lose 32-36 Big Blinds vs losing 100 Big Blinds.

The never knowing can be frustrating, but that is how you win more (or lose less!).

never 4b fold here

HI NEWFISH!

so majority is for 4bet/call any in this spot with 2 callers between and CO stats.

what if i was HU preflop with CO, what would bets play then vs a villain like him? flat or 4bet/call again?

probably flatting HU against such a nit (who is 3betting against a very strong range)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

so majority is for 4bet/call any in this spot with 2 callers between and CO stats.

what if i was HU preflop with CO, what would bets play then vs a villain like him? flat or 4bet/call again?

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Flat

please consider that i'm playing 6max not FR, but in my recent expeditions at 25NL, having beaten the lower levels the same as you, I can share that KK is good for preflop all ins. I've been witnessing AQ+/99+ ...my villains are typically more loose aggressive in general though i gather, not a whole lot of nits.

I always take the line that if I run into aces thats life, and that sooner or later I'm going to have aces that run into kings.

would perhaps see things differently if you had 3 bet and were facing a nits 4bet shove.