Could I have gotten more value somehow?

At the time MP1 is 14/11, cbet 68% AGG inf. Haven't seen him get out of line at all and no other notes. Sample only 40 hands.
Butt is 45/25 aggro fish. 3bet 6%. I have seen him bet OOP a couple of times and raise flops a couple of times only to fold on the turn to any bet and I've seen him double barrel when IP. Sample only 22 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($9.90)
BB ($12.37)
UTG ($7.94)
UTG+1 ($12.38)
MP1 ($10)
MP2 ($10)
CO ($3.25)
Button ($18.96)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
2 folds, MP1 bets $0.30, 2 folds, Button calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold

I put MP1 on TT+, AQ+, AJs+, KQs+
I put Butt on almost any two cards. My best guess is probably Ax, any broadway, 22-99 and SC's 65+ and possibly SG's 97+. I discount TT+ as I think he would have raised

I figure it's a good place to set mine. Don't see any value in 3betting OOP agains at least one player who seems fairly solid and I want to keep the fish in if I hit my set.

Flop: ($1) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.60, Button calls $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Get my set, fairly dry board so I check figuring there is a good chance one or the other will bet.

When MP1 bets I put him on TT-KK figuring he seems good enough he might rep the A along with AQ+, AJs+. AA is also possible of course but very rare.
Butt calls and I put him on AweakX, and some combos of 9x. I can't figure any other hand that he would only call preflop with and not raise this flop.

I decide to just call hoping to disguise my hand a bit and figuring there is a decent chance butt will fire again at the very least if not MP1 as well.

In hindsight a raise here probably would have been better. I figure MP1 would probably only have two moves, being to fold out TT-KK having seen my hand for what it was or assuming I had an A or he would have jammed with AA and such is life.
Butt almost certainly would have called a raise with Ax.

Turn: ($2.80) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button checks

No real danger from 7c so going with my disguise idea I check figuring at the very least butt will fire off. Bit disappointed but what can you do.

River: ($2.80) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $1.30, 1 fold, Button calls $1.30

Total pot: $5.40 | Rake: $0.26

In the past in these circumstances I've tried shipping it all in, overbetting, psb and all of them seem to just get folds. So this time I went for about 1/2psb and got the call which was nice but still think I lost a fair bit of value on this hand.

c/r flop...or:
personally, if one of them is as aggressive as you say then this is a great flop to donk to about $0.60 and hope they call or shove over. Then you can c/r the turn instead (if called)or get it in on the flop with a big 3bet (if raised).

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Originally Posted by PKKFW

In the past in these circumstances I've tried shipping it all in, overbetting, psb and all of them seem to just get folds. So this time I went for about 1/2psb and got the call which was nice but still think I lost a fair bit of value on this hand.

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River: If he called < 1/2 psb then don't you think he'da called about 3/4 psb or so? The extra value will make up for the times the villain folds.

I'm interested to see what the big hitters have to say about this hand. Extracting maximum value from sets is a skill that takes time to develop, and it's certainly not a skill I've mastered.

My view is, I don't like to c/r this flop, it's uber-dry and we've got next to the nuts. If MP is solid, then he might fold Ax to a raise, and he's definitely folding KK-. I like to c/c this.

I don't like to check the turn. Appreciated, we're out of position and not the aggressor, but now is the time to start extracting value. I like a 70% bet here, and same on river. I think MP can call down Ax while folding out his KK- (which he's pretty much c/f-ing now). As for the fish, he has Ax in his range too, so he could be calling to showdown.

A note about the half-pot river bet...

Is it better to bet $1.30 and get paid off 60% of the time, or to bet $2 and get paid off 50% of the time? I'm throwing these numbers out to provoke thought, obviously I don't know how often villain calls a river bet of $2, but there's not too many hands he calls at $1.30 and folds at $2.

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Originally Posted by Shotglass

c/r flop...or:
personally, if one of them is as aggressive as you say then this is a great flop to donk to about $0.60 and hope they call or shove over. Then you can c/r the turn instead (if called)or get it in on the flop with a big 3bet (if raised).

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Good ideas. I did think about a donk bet on the flop but just thought the board was so dry I could get more value from slow playing this one. Obviously didn't work out that way though.

I think c/r flop would have been better and I certainly should have bet the turn hoping to get called down with Ax but such is life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shotglass

River: If he called < 1/2 psb then don't you think he'da called about 3/4 psb or so? The extra value will make up for the times the villain folds.

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In hindsight I think he was probably going to call anything and I should have made a psb.

I know we have to analyse every hand individually for maximum value but I think this time I was just so sick of getting folds to anything more than a small value bet on the river that I just wanted to ensure I got something! Live and learn.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm interested to see what the big hitters have to say about this hand. Extracting maximum value from sets is a skill that takes time to develop, and it's certainly not a skill I've mastered.

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Same here!

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

My view is, I don't like to c/r this flop, it's uber-dry and we've got next to the nuts. If MP is solid, then he might fold Ax to a raise, and he's definitely folding KK-. I like to c/c this.

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My thinking as well. Obviously there is an argument for c/r flop and with the uberfish I think it likely he would have called but he was also very aggressive so I wanted to give him a second shot at the pot and then hit him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I don't like to check the turn. Appreciated, we're out of position and not the aggressor, but now is the time to start extracting value. I like a 70% bet here, and same on river. I think MP can call down Ax while folding out his KK- (which he's pretty much c/f-ing now). As for the fish, he has Ax in his range too, so he could be calling to showdown.

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With the benefit of hindsight I think this would have definitely been the better way to play it. I think MP was always c/fing to the river after getting 2 calls so I should have concentrated more on getting value from the fish. I think he would have called down with Ax all day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

A note about the half-pot river bet...

Is it better to bet $1.30 and get paid off 60% of the time, or to bet $2 and get paid off 50% of the time? I'm throwing these numbers out to provoke thought, obviously I don't know how often villain calls a river bet of $2, but there's not too many hands he calls at $1.30 and folds at $2.

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Point taken. In future I will try even harder to not let the past unduly influence my play.

without looking to closely and with the aggro fish in I would just raise and bet and bet and raise..

definately can get more value on river.

if either of them has an ace you should be getting value on all streets, and if not then what are you hoping for? to win a small bluff from them or for Kx to make a pair, and call down a middle pair.

I dont mind calling the flop, but would be happy to raise. i dont like not betting the turn

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Originally Posted by scott_owen

without looking to closely and with the aggro fish in I would just raise and bet and bet and raise..

definately can get more value on river.

if either of them has an ace you should be getting value on all streets, and if not then what are you hoping for? to win a small bluff from them or for Kx to make a pair, and call down a middle pair.

I dont mind calling the flop, but would be happy to raise. i dont like not betting the turn

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Yeah I think my biggest mistake was not betting the turn. Getting too tricky at 10nl is almost always a mistake.

And I totally agree with what everyone has said, that aggro fish was likely going to call anything up to a psb on the river. I just let all the past folds on the river I've seen influence me into making a smaller than optimal bet there.

Flop is a good spot to c/r since most of the value comes from the BTN and we can trap him in the pot.

As played I'd lead the turn fairly big because MP1 isn't going to double barrel air and BTN has a weak range that is unlikely to bet. It's an unbalanced line but these guys won't know that.

If you c/c flop defo lead this turn big and bet river big.

As played, river bet is way too small.

In response to the title, yes!

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Originally Posted by Carroters

If you c/c flop defo lead this turn big and bet river big.

As played, river bet is way too small.

In response to the title, yes!

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c/c flop and then leading turn? Doesn't this polarise us either to very strong or air with not much in between?

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Originally Posted by The Norg

c/c flop and then leading turn? Doesn't this polarise us either to very strong or air with not much in between?

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Is this a problem? Based on reads, we're assuming MP is solid and BU is a fish. Maybe MP understands what a polarised range is, but I doubt BU does. And even if MP thinks we have a polarised range, the air in our range makes any decision he has somewhat difficult, especially with a fish to act behind him. This could encourage a spewy raise.

Also, the flop is hardly ideal for representing a middle hand whilst extracting value with our monster. What will MP think we have if we c/r this flop? Is that not a polarised range too? I doubt A3s c/r this flop, so again it leaves us with air and monsters, with little in between.

I guess we have to decide who we are trying to get value from. If we're looking for value from MP, the pre flop raiser, then I think we should c/c and then lead the turn. If we're targetting the fish on the BU, then maybe a c/r is good, since the fish will have a hard time folding his ace.

i dont even think it polarizes us really, raising the flop would a lot more -____-...i would take this line with AK/AQ

Hmm, well since you are first to act you are basically gambling with an opportunity that one of the villains will continue his aggression. And if you don't have a read that he is super aggro I would advocate lead out on turn, no matter if you just call or raise the flop. Any Ace, except maybe for AK would doubtfully continue aggression if you check turn, but if you lead out (for like 60-80% of pot), most of the Aces will be hard pressed to call, and if villain is aggresive they might even raise you. I assume some TT-KK's might call this as well, but rarely.

c/c donk donk when the board is this dry and villains hand range TP/sets/nothing so is calling down or getting it all in for you anyway

If you bet $2 on turn and $4-5 on river villain isnt folding AK/AQ

c/r against 2 people on this board looks far too strong. C/c. I would check the turn too hoping that MP1 has a strong enough hand to fire the turn again. Assuming other guy folds I would check the river as a non 'scare card' has come out so his hand surely has some extraction value after betting the turn vs 2 people. C/R obviously. If a 'scare card' came out I would just randomly overbet to level them to call with worse

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

c/c donk donk when the board is this dry and villains hand range TP/sets/nothing so is calling down or getting it all in for you anyway

If you bet $2 on turn and $4-5 on river villain isnt folding AK/AQ

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Having thought about it I think this would likely be the optimal line for the situation and what I will be looking to do in the future in similar situations.