Benefits of a CBet?

I realize this seems like a very basic question. However, I have come to find that my overall flop aggression % is very low at 29.8% percent. I play mainly 10nl-50nl 6max and found that I may have over adjusted to the fish and stations at the micros. It was my impression that they call too much so why cbet as often. I realize this is a fundamental flaw and I am hoping someone can argue why it may be unprofitable for me to be taking this strategy. My overall cbet percentage on the flop is 51.9%. Can we talk about board textures and spots that I can take advantage of? Also it may help me to stay aggressive on the turn. Thanks in advance...

it would be most helpful to post a few hands where you dont know whether you should continue and we can discuss from there...

^^ do that. post a hand where you are unsure of a Cbet in this thread. and we can talk about the factors which make cbets profitable on certain boards vs certain ranges etc. your question is too broad to really answer in any helpful way (for me anyway)

I recently mentioned in one of my posts reasons (not) to c-bet and the rough order in which you should consider each of these factors. It's just a few brief lists of considerations (I've only just started learning about this myself as well!) but it may help you get started.

spenda has also written an article about Continuation Betting in NL Hold'em.

Hope this helps!

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Originally Posted by Petulie

I recently mentioned in one of my posts reasons (not) to c-bet and the rough order in which you should consider each of these factors. It's just a few brief lists of considerations (I've only just started learning about this myself as well!) but it may help you get started.

spenda has also written an article about Continuation Betting in NL Hold'em.

Hope this helps!

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"Reasons to c-bet: 1) Dry(ish) board texture. 2) One opponent. 3) Looser opponent - take advantage of these with unpolarised c-betting. 4) No showdown value. 5) Showdown value is weak i.e. very vulnerable. 6) Flopping equity e.g. straight/flush draws. 7) Value betting.

Reasons not to c-bet: 1) Showdown value is strong, however not entirely invulnerable e.g. strong middle pair. 2) Clear turn plan. 3) Tighter opponent. 4) Multiway pots.

So the line of thought when deciding whether to c-bet goes:
1) Board texture. 2) Number of opponents. 3) Opponent range(s). 4) Equity? 5) Showdown value? "

This is very solid information. The hands I will post are hands where I do not have any information on the player. I am not sure how to generalize the micro player . Do I rate them solid until proven otherwise or terrible until proven otherwise? This stereotyping up front may make a difference.

I was going through my DB and found that 100 percent of the time I isolated a limper I cbet. What are your thoughts about limp callers or over calls and cbetting? I generalize that a player that limp calls or over calls I iso raise has a wide enough range or hands like mid pp and stronger AX that cbetting 100 percent in iso raised pots may be warranted. Or do you take the same approach as you would cbetting in single raised pots? Here are some examples:

* please note I have zero reads on the players

** Also, thinking about these hands I don't have much equity of any at all so maybe these should all be check folds without reads?


#1 Hand Converted by Ace Poker Drills Poker Training Software

NL Holdem $0.25(BB)
SB ($29.62)
BB ($75.92)
UTG ($25.42)
HERO ($38.22)
CO ($20.27)
BTN ($26.4)

Dealt to Hero K:heart: J:spade:

UTG Calls $0.25 , HERO Raises To $1.25 , CO Folds , BTN Calls $1.25 , SB Folds , BB Folds , UTG Folds

Flop ($2.75) 4:diamond: 7:heart: 9:diamond:
HERO Bets $2



# 2 Hand Converted by Ace Poker Drills Poker Training Software

NL Holdem $0.25(BB)
SB ($32.45)
BB ($25)
UTG ($32.33)
EP ($25.35)
MP ($31.17)
HERO ($24.8)
HJ ($20.67)
CO ($9.05)
BTN ($36.68)

Dealt to Hero 8:heart: A:heart:

UTG Folds , EP Folds , MP Folds , HERO Raises To $0.7 , HJ Folds , CO Folds , BTN Calls $0.7 , SB Folds , BB Folds

Flop ($1.4) 3:spade: 7:diamond: 2:spade:
HERO Bets $0.9



#3 Hand Converted by Ace Poker Drills Poker Training Software

NL Holdem $0.25(BB)
HERO ($28.05)
BB ($44.07)
UTG ($30.55)
HJ ($53.89)
CO ($27.36)
BTN ($25.59)

Dealt to Hero T:heart: J:diamond:

UTG Folds , HJ Folds , CO Folds , BTN Folds , HERO Raises To $0.75 , BB Calls $0.5

Flop ($1.25) A:club: 6:club: 9:club:
HERO Bets $1.25


#4 Hand Converted by Ace Poker Drills Poker Training Software

NL Holdem $0.25(BB)
SB ($9.86)
BB ($34.78)
HERO ($35.17)
CO ($14.54)
BTN ($7.21)

Dealt to Hero K:spade: J:diamond:

HERO Raises To $0.75 , CO Folds , BTN Folds , SB Calls $0.65 , BB Folds

Flop ($1.4) 9:club: A:heart: 8:club:
SB Checks , HERO Bets $1.1

i'm by no means an expert in this field, but i don't paticularly like a single one of those c-bets.

in hand one you are getting called by all pocket pairs 44+, basically all suited connectors, all suited two-gappers, all XdXd hands, and basically the only hands you get value by folding out are Ax which missed. i can see getting peeled very light on this flop because it doesn't seem to hit a "raising range". also you have minimal pot equity when called (probably because that board doesn't actually hit your range, as mentioned before)

the board in hand two is a little drier than hand one, because there are less possible straight draw/two pair combos. however i still don't see villain folding any hands that beat us to a single (flop) bet.

hand three (i think) is terrible. you have next to no equity when called. fwiw i rarely cbet monotone boards without at least a flush draw or a pair.

my .02:

hand 2 is like the only board id expect villain to fold on semi frequently, but our hand has some sd value soo...

the rest of the hands youre setting yourself up to fire multiple streets as they are wet as fuck.

H4 is prob the worst. yeh you have bd straight equity, but fuck.

also, "i have zero reads on players" the fuck??

not trying to be harsh but cmon.
your first post /analysis is dece btw so thats good.

edit: a tad tipsy atm, will revisit tomorrow..maybe ill like some of your cbets better.

As previously mentioned, I'm a total beginner, but I thought I'd post some thoughts on this so I can learn as well. Guys, correct me if I'm misguided here!

I agree with what rpm said above.

H1 is a rubbish board to c-bet, not many hands are folding to this. You'll be called by all straight and flush draws, pocket pairs 44+. Definitely check this flop and I'd probably fold to any bets although you can probably argue calling one and evaluating the turn.

H2 isn't great either. Again, straight/flush draws will call, all pocket pairs. You have showdown value with your A high. Check.

H3 is in my opinion the worst. Mega sopping wet board, any club will call/raise you and you'll be miles behind. [edit: I would c/f this board]

H4 is probably the best option to c-bet of the hands you've posted. Still not great though as again straight/flush draws will be calling, but you do fold out most pocket pairs and maybe even Ax with rubbish kickers.

Oh and regarding unknown opponents. I would be careful against these. Don't just assume they're fish - this can be an easy way to burn money. I would only play strong hands against these until I have more information.

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Originally Posted by Petulie

As previously mentioned, I'm a total beginner, but I thought I'd post some thoughts on this so I can learn as well. Guys, correct me if I'm misguided here!

I agree with what rpm said above.

H1 is a rubbish board to c-bet, not many hands are folding to this. You'll be called by all straight and flush draws, pocket pairs 44+. Definitely check this flop and I'd probably fold to any bets although you can probably argue calling one and evaluating the turn.

H2 isn't great either. Again, straight/flush draws will call, all pocket pairs. You have showdown value with your A high. Check.

H3 is in my opinion the worst. Mega sopping wet board, any club will call/raise you and you'll be miles behind. [edit: I would c/f this board]

H4 is probably the best option to c-bet of the hands you've posted. Still not great though as again straight/flush draws will be calling, but you do fold out most pocket pairs and maybe even Ax with rubbish kickers.

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This is pretty good analysis overall. 2 Glaring errors only!

H1: Don't ever c/c. There's no argument for calling one since you have 0 equity, even A high is ahead of us we have no turn prospects on most cards and nowhere near enough sd value to make it to sd nor do we win often enough when we do make it to sd.

H4: An ace never ever folds this flop. it's not a great board to c-bet by any means, probably not too terrible though.

Reads on these villains would obviously help matters when making these decisions.

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Originally Posted by Petulie

Oh and regarding unknown opponents. I would be careful against these. Don't just assume they're fish - this can be an easy way to burn money. I would only play strong hands against these until I have more information.

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We can assume they're likely fairly bad at these stakes for sure, not that necessarily fit the 70/16 mould of a whale though. You want to play plenty pots IP with unknowns when you have initiative and position because you can defo assume they fold to c-bets too much, have a tendency to play a widish range preflop and make a lot of mistakes oop. Not advocating opening any 2 cards or anything, but we can and should want to play a fairly wide range in steal positions IP as we would vs almost all opponents in these games.

Yuck. Don't think I'd Cbet any of those flops for reasons already given above. If worse folds and better calls, just check/fold or check behind. I miss playing. :(

wordtothewise, maybe you should go through your hand histories and given the above information post some hands you think would be good spots to c-bet. [edit: and why!]

I'd expect that we can make a profit from cbetting all of these boards (in the long term) by sizing our bets correctly. The problem is that we end up with a cbet % of 100 which is bad because villains' that even are a little aware are going to exploit this. So we want to Cbet boards that give us the most fold equity and greater ev while not cbetting boards that offer us less ev.

I'm only bringing this up because I'm hoping someone can come in with some simple math on how often we need villain to fold when we cbet X amount in a Y size pot. Say we have no real equity and we bet $1 into $2 pot, how often do we need villain to fold to make a profit. Just looking at it I'd assume he only needs to fold a little more than 33% for this to be profitable for us, but I tend to leave out important factors when I do math.

Obv we're not betting half the pot every time we cbet, it's just an example so don't go off on me about that (uh, carrotz), just trying to figure out the formula.

WTF are you talking about? Why the hell would we c-bet half the pot every single time we c-bet ever? What the fuck's wrong with you?

On a serious note, the formula you need here is bet/pot + bet. if you fire a half pot c-bet. $2 into a $4 por for example it has to work exactly 33% of the time for you to break even, but that's assuming you have NO equity and always lose when called. It's just a raw guidline sort of figure then you'll usually have to consdier your equity, barrel spots, reverse implied odds etc etc where ever relevant.

Fold equity obviously drops in many spots with bet sizes so it's upto you to find the optimum size based on this too.

I wrote a post a couple of months ago that may help. I need to update it but here ya go: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post2018849

information

alright, sry if i came off like a dick in my response to your cbets.

you should post a couple spots where you have some reads on your opponent and work through reasons for cbetting, or not, on various boards vs dif opponent types.

Its somewhat pointless to post hands in which you provide no info on villain as poker is such an opponent dependent game.

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Originally Posted by thelorax

alright, sry if i came off like a dick in my response to your cbets.

you should post a couple spots where you have some reads on your opponent and work through reasons for cbetting, or not, on various boards vs dif opponent types.

Its somewhat pointless to post hands in which you provide no info on villain as poker is such an opponent dependent game.

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Get tipsy again. Your better when you were tipsy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thelorax

alright, sry if i came off like a dick in my response to your cbets.

you should post a couple spots where you have some reads on your opponent and work through reasons for cbetting, or not, on various boards vs dif opponent types.

Its somewhat pointless to post hands in which you provide no info on villain as poker is such an opponent dependent game.

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At the micro stakes level majority of your opponents are unknowns. This is the reason I asked about how to view the micro player when you first encounter them. Do you assume they are terrible call stations or assume they are solid until proven otherwise? Also, I don't mind your drunk rants. It's nice to know you took the time to post in my thread even when messed up:)

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Originally Posted by StarGrinder

Yuck. Don't think I'd Cbet any of those flops for reasons already given above. If worse folds and better calls, just check/fold or check behind. I miss playing. :(

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I hear you. I am just digging through my database trying to identity leaks in my game until I can play or find a US friendly site. Here are a bunch of leaks I have uncovered with HEM and LB! Sigh you guys are going to have to get used to me. I am going to try and explore every leak in my game:)


http://www.pokerleakbuster.com/Files...fbbe766871.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petulie

wordtothewise, maybe you should go through your hand histories and given the above information post some hands you think would be good spots to c-bet. [edit: and why!]

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I will for sure! I discovered this leak when researching my HEM DB. I ran Leak Buster and found a ton of leaks. I am going to watch the cbet video tonight and see if I can gather a few tips. Areas I have confusion I will post hands and get your thoughts. Thanks for stepping in to help. What limit are you at?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroters

We can assume they're likely fairly bad at these stakes for sure, not that necessarily fit the 70/16 mould of a whale though. You want to play plenty pots IP with unknowns when you have initiative and position because you can defo assume they fold to c-bets too much, have a tendency to play a widish range preflop and make a lot of mistakes oop. Not advocating opening any 2 cards or anything, but we can and should want to play a fairly wide range in steal positions IP as we would vs almost all opponents in these games.

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I believe this is the reason I cbet these boards. Since I noted my overall cbet is very low I generally cbet when I have a solid hand. However, I realized when I am iso raising and playing against unknowns I have been defaulting to cbetting regardless of board texture assuming everyone at the micro stakes is terrible and their wide ranges can't stand much heat. The problem I see with this thought process has already been mentioned. I would have to fire a ton of turns and rivers and may be spewing vs unknown ranges.

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Originally Posted by kmind

I wrote a post a couple of months ago that may help. I need to update it but here ya go: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post2018849

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TY for this. Will take a look.