Another potential 4-of-a-kind

Taking a wee break from the revision and just played this hand. I'm keen to hear your thoughts.

So CO is 29/24 over 38 hands.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($3.55)
UTG ($4.49)
MP ($0.84)
CO ($2.61)
Hero (Button) ($2.15)
SB ($2.34)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, CO bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06, MP calls $0.06


So I'm aware I probably shouldn't have called this with ATo, but I was 1-tabling and a little bored and so wanted to get in on the action. Thought they were just about good enough to call a CO raise.

I figure CO's opening range would be something like 22+, A2s+, A9o+, K9s+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo+, T8s+, 87s+


Flop: ($0.33) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP bets $0.06, CO raises to $0.38, Hero calls $0.38, 2 folds


CO range is narrowed down to K9s+, KTo+, 77, QQ. Maybe even tighter like KJ+, 77, QQ. Probably not Qx due to the size of the bet.

I wasn't entirely sure about this call. Probably should have been a fold. I thought it may be worth trying for the gut shot/backdoor flush (weak as it is).


Turn: ($1.15) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $0.64, CO calls $0.64


Sweet! Hit my gutshot. CO checks, so bet for value. In retrospect I think this maybe could have been larger, however at the time I was thinking to v-bet both turn and river making two more "affordable" chunks


River: ($2.43) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players)
CO bets $1.51 (All-In), Hero ????

Shitty river card. CO takes initiative and goes all in which means either he's got 77 or is bluffing, and I hardly think this is a bluff. I also think by this point I'm kind of pot committed and so have to make the call....what do you guys think?

I don't like calling AT. I don't like calling pot sized bets with a gutshot. I don't like the fact that your j may have completed a flush. I don't like the fact that folding hit gutshots makes chasing them even more -ev and I think you could've avoided all this if you'd folded preflop like you said you should have.. also don't think you can limit his river shove range to 77 or bluff. Flush and straight possible too. KK QQ also just filled up and are looking for a call from made straights and flushes.

i dont mind calling pre vs CO with ATo in BUT. fold flop to that raise, you have no odds to call. as played betting turn is ok since we get called by sets and KQ,KJ,KT besides flushes. river is a fold.

Cheers guys, yea the flop really should have been a fold. 20/20 in hindsight. Also, thanks for pointing out the potential for full houses as well, I had completely overlooked that. Of course KK QQ was in the opponent's range.

No matter how skewed it may have been (i.e. calling with incorrect odds to hit the gutshot), I think it's good that you listed you thought process on every street.

Also, villain's range at this point and with those stats could contain a lot more than boats, quads (more 7x as well). I remember a razvan hand pretty identical to this one except it was at 5nl. He put villain on the stone cold nuts (boats), but at this level you've pretty much got to account for a bunch of crap in villain's range as well.

This is a call for me. Good for him if he has a FH/quads/flush.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

i dont mind calling pre vs CO with ATo in BUT. fold flop to that raise, you have no odds to call. as played betting turn is absolutely essential since we have the nut straight against an opponent who can have a whole heap of two pair/pair+gutter/pair+open-ender/set type hands which we get a shitload of value from.

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FYP ;)

edit: he also calls with all Ahx hands, and probably Khx. more value.

oh yeah, as for deciding the river call - consult this thread. first figure out how much equity you need against villain's range for a call to be breakeven. then mess about with some ranges in stove to see how you're doing. it'll probably help you a lot.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petulie

little bored and so wanted to get in on the action. Thought they were just about good enough to call a CO raise.

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The bold part is REALLY bad. The call with ATo against a raise from the co isn't too terrible but the thought process behind it will def get you into trouble.

Flop:

Quote:

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I thought it may be worth trying for the gut shot/backdoor flush (weak as it is).

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It's only worth it if you have the odds to do it, which in this case, you don't...not even implied odds.

Turn:
Bet about 75% - 90% PSB OTT. Yeah, the J:h: may have completed his flush, but now that we've hit, we need to try to get his stack in the middle to compensate for the piss poor thinking earlier and get value from the garbage that he's holding that don't beat us.

I strongly recommend this: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ds-141722.html. Read it, re-read it, re-re-read it until it makes sense.

Follow RPM's link for the river thoughts. Run the math and re-post about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shotglass

The bold part is REALLY bad. The call with ATo against a raise from the co isn't too terrible but the thought process behind it will def get you into trouble.

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This. Doing stuff just because you're bored is a really good way to deliberately play bad poker and deliberately hamper your own progress.

Preflop call is alright but your thought process should centre around what your opponents opening range is like, among other factors such as, are the fish in the blinds I'm likely to get in this pot with? etc etc, not how you happen to feel at the time.

You're not getting the odds to make this call on the flop at all. We'll go over pot odds very soon though in detail.

Bet the turn harder. You need to build this pot against all his top pair, 2 pair, sets now since he has these more often than a flush. Your sizing is too small. The board can run out like shit for you on quite a few rivers so get more in now while you're ahead of his calling range and while he's never foldinh top pair or better.

You need 27% equity to call this river bet. Try sticking a range into poker stove and see how much equity you have vs it.

Jesus wept, this hand is ugly.

Pre flop... calling isn't so bad, but if you're using the "bored" logic, then you should raise. I'm assuming you're bored because you haven't played a hand in a while, in which case raising is going to show some strength. Having said that, ATo is a piece of shit hand, I prefer to just fold it.

Flop... what the fuck is that donk? It's so obviously getting raised that it doesn't help narrow villain's range at all. (*edit - sorry, hero doesn't donk into this flop, my mistake).
When villain raises, we have to work out how many outs we have, and the pot odds villain is laying on for us. It's sunday morning and I can't be bothered to do any maths, but I can say with 100% certainty that we're not getting the right price. Snap-fold.

Turn... what what? We called? And now we have a straight with flush draw. We're very probably ahead after calling a bad flop raise. I'd fucking shove and force villain into making a mistake too, and give us the chance to make up for our terrible flop call. Oh look, we bet half the pot. Way to extract value after a bad call.

River... meh we deserve to be up against a boat/quads. I guess we're calling now, but I hate it a lot.




In summary, don't call crap to raises pre flop, when we semi-bluff we should bet like we have a real hand so villain doesn't think we have exclusively draws (*edit - not deleting this point even if it's mute in this spot, since it's important to think about), and fold when we don't have the correct drawing odds to continue. Easy game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Jesus wept, this hand is ugly.

Pre flop... calling isn't so bad, but if you're using the "bored" logic, then you should raise. I'm assuming you're bored because you haven't played a hand in a while, in which case raising is going to show some strength. Having said that, ATo is a piece of shit hand, I prefer to just fold it.

Flop... what the fuck is that donk? It's so obviously getting raised that it doesn't help narrow villain's range at all. (*edit - sorry, hero doesn't donk into this flop, my mistake).
When villain raises, we have to work out how many outs we have, and the pot odds villain is laying on for us. It's sunday morning and I can't be bothered to do any maths, but I can say with 100% certainty that we're not getting the right price. Snap-fold.

Turn... what what? We called? And now we have a straight with flush draw. We're very probably ahead after calling a bad flop raise. I'd fucking shove and force villain into making a mistake too, and give us the chance to make up for our terrible flop call. Oh look, we bet half the pot. Way to extract value after a bad call.

River... meh we deserve to be up against a boat/quads. I guess we're calling now, but I hate it a lot.




In summary, don't call crap to raises pre flop, when we semi-bluff we should bet like we have a real hand so villain doesn't think we have exclusively draws (*edit - not deleting this point even if it's mute in this spot, since it's important to think about), and fold when we don't have the correct drawing odds to continue. Easy game.

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Wat?

if you get bored then you should move up where they respect your raises rather than calling with shit - although they are both equally (in)valid responses

fold pre, fold flop, who cares about later streets cos you shouldn't be there anyway.

I hated 2/5nl and they just tilted me to shit. I used to get bored a lot...

When I got bored I either/or:

1) Played more tables and played tighter (at 2nl-5-10nl)
2) Reduced the amount of time I played
3) Set myself targets during a session

A combination of those three things is probably optimal.

Thoughts anyone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

fold pre, fold flop, who cares about later streets cos you shouldn't be there anyway.

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While I agree we shouldn't have gotten to a river here, there's obviously still significance in and things to be learned from the river spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petulie

Also, thanks for pointing out the potential for full houses as well, I had completely overlooked that. Of course KK QQ was in the opponent's range.

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I find that as humans, when we learn anything new, we hit a solution and assume it applies to all situations. Here you're brain thought of 77, or bluff which made sense and fit the mould well enough that you stopped thinking because you had a valid solution to the question "what hand makes that play?"

I have the same issue, where a situation plops up and 2 particular cards fit really well so I fail to consider other possibilites.

Thanks for the massive response guys, lots of food for thought.

I'm struggling for time at the moment what with exams etc on the go atm but once I've got a chance I have a reading list around pot odds/equity/calling all ins that I'll go through, then Stove and I have a date where I'll have a play with loads of ranges and let you guys know what I come up with!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petulie

once I've got a chance I have a reading list around pot odds/equity/calling all ins that I'll go through, then Stove and I have a date where I'll have a play with loads of ranges and let you guys know what I come up with!

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